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Ironical Thought!

People who only think from the mind usually do nothing other then Criticising everything since normally everything is negative these days...

You really think so?!

OK, we will await how long a time it takes to get things to normalcy, inspite of your feeling things can be done in a jiffy with eyes closed.

What do you think President Musharraf is doing?

Twiddling their thumbs and hoping for a favourable wind to blow?

Why don't you take over and run the country if you think that by just hoping and being optimistic the problem will blow over!

Even optimistic dreams require to be backed up with reality!

One has to use one's mind and appreciate the reality and then use all their means to stamp out the rot!

Dreams and optimism alone can do nothing!

Or are you of the opinion that dreams can undo problems?
 
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I replied that being positive is a good thing with criticism. Being thinking negative we only sound cinical.
 
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Militants 'abandon' Pakistan fort

Many soldiers are reported killed or kidnapped
Pro-Taleban militants who overran a paramilitary fort in north-west Pakistan have abandoned the position, a Pakistani army spokesman has said.
The army said seven soldiers were killed in the attack in South Waziristan and 15 men are missing.

A Taleban spokesman in the region told the BBC Urdu service that 16 troops had been killed and another 12 captured during the fighting.

South Waziristan is a known stronghold of pro-Taleban and al-Qaeda militants.

The region has been at the centre of fighting between the army and militants in recent months.

'Open challenge'

The army said about 200 militants had charged the fort in the Sararogha area from four sides on Tuesday night.

Local officials and other reports suggested the number of militants may have been nearer to 1,000.

Observers say this is the first time that militants have captured a fort in Pakistan.

The BBC's M Ilyas Khan says that if the militants had stayed in the fort, they would have made themselves the target of the military's artillery or helicopter gunships.

The army says that up to 40 attackers were killed in the fighting, something the tribal fighters deny.

Taleban spokesman in South Waziristan Maulvi Umar told the BBC Urdu service that just two fighters had been killed.

There is no independent confirmation of these figures.

Officials said troops at the fort came under rocket and automatic weapons attack from militants. Soldiers returned fire and the battle went on until early on Wednesday morning.

People in the Sararogha area told the BBC Urdu service that the militants entered the remote military outpost and started shifting weapons and troops they had captured out of the fort.

Correspondents say the militants are now openly challenging the army in the area bordering Afghanistan.

They are eroding confidence in the government's ability to ensure stability for elections due next month that are meant to complete a transition to civilian rule.

BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Militants 'abandon' Pakistan fort
 
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Imagine having nothing else to do but rolling in gangs of other youth who love firearms and acting tough. Mix this with guidance from Mullahs who say that anything you do is jihad and you are getting reward for it and if you die then you are a shaheed. On top of that, you see the invasion of Afghanistan as wrong and the struggle against the occupation as a just cause. On top of that, you see the Pakistan Army and paramilitary stopping you from supporting your fellow pashtuns across the border in Afghanistan as acting on behalf of the US.

Add to this all the loss of life and property around you in which people of your tribe, village or family are impacted..after that, what is to be your reaction given there is no dearth of weapons?...you will do what comes easy and naturally to you which is to go and kill someone from the government side and currently there are elements who want to use you for this task....so when you put all this together, you get an idea as to who and where these people are coming from.

On top of that, you also have to think about the tribal connections in Pakistan. Currently the government is pitched against what is perceived to be a Mehsud resistance. Mehsuds, like Wazirs and many other Pashtun tribes, are integrated into the Pakistani society, government and armed forces. So you cannot simply wipe out a whole bunch of these people with massive firepower. There would be resistance within the government and even in the armed forces against these type of actions (rightfully so too).

Firepower alone cannot resolve this problem. You will have to suffer casualties, use force in a measured way and then give these folks incentives and that is the only way you will get beyond this problem. The fact that US occupation goes on in Afghanistan, none of the above that I have mentioned are guaranteed to provide the solution unfortunately, otherwise this problem has been controlled in the past when Afghanistan was not a mess.

Well said...:tup:
 
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A most convoluted reply missing the woods for the trees.

What is it supposed to me. They exist and yet don't exist and that too not in the Pakistani form! A escapist romanticism, at best! Why is it that everything not in consonance with indicating all is well and under control, requires some sort of a blanket of obfuscation?

What's contradictory about it. Here are the posts I said again

"2The Taliban does not exist in Pakistan, at least not the same Taliban as the Afghani Taliban.

# 3No Afghani Taliban exist in Pakistan."


They're both explanatory. The Afghani Taliban or the "real" Taliban does not exist in Pakistan. It is an adopted title by some Pakistani locals. These locals aren't even religious and don't hold the same views as the "real" (afghani) Taliban. The Pakistani Taliban is considered more of a liability by the Afghani Taliban. It's not incorrect to say they don't even like each other. But the Pakistani Taliban would never vacate their land in large numbers to go and fight in Afghanistan.

If that be right, then why the posts on Swat and elsewhere claimed that the horrors were by Afghanis, Uzebk and the like?

BECAUSE UZBEKS ARE AL QAEDA-LINKED. They are not Taliban. Al Qaeda are the foreigners generally in the region (some Afghanis and Pakistanis too), but the Afghani Taliban would not operate out of Pakistan, tribalism is still rife.

There are, as per you, only locals under the guise of Taliban and yet the posts, when convenient, flip flop as per the requirement to blame everyone but themselves and then you come in saying that there is no Pakistani Taliban and then show that there are! Check #2 and #3 and even #4.

post #2 says
No Afghani Taliban exist in Pakistan.

post #3 says
Afghani Taliban are Afghani locals, Pakistani Taliban are Pakistani locals, they do not move out of their territories generally.

post #4 says
Because these people cannot move whole armies across the border and shuffle them back at will. The Mehsud tribe is resident in Waziristan, they will never move from thir area and cede territory to the Waziris. There's many other reasons.

Where is the contradiction there? The Afghani Taliban that is currently fighting NATO is different from the one that is fighting Pak military.

So now it is over inflated!

why did you not mention so earlier in that thread?

Wasn't convenient then, right?

Why wasn't is convenient then and it is now?

About 300 fighters armed with rifles and rocket-propelled grenades took part in the assault against a garrison of 40 members of Pakistan's paramilitary Frontier Corps, Malik said.
Militants overrun Pakistan fort - CNN.com

It's very easy to get 300 men from one tribe.

To be frank, it does not matter what name or nationality these terrorists are. All I wnat to know what is the real situation and how they can be stopped.

Therefore, there is nothing to be defensive about or embarrassed about. Scoundrels have no nationality.

Well, yes they do. Even scoundrels have nationalities. The Pakistani Taliban being different from the Afghani Taliban is something obviously you and your friend, don't seem to understand. There is no force eminating out of Pakistan and fighting NATO troops in Afghanistan, Afghanis are fighting NATO troops in Afghanistan.
 
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Very convenient.

The Afghani Are the real Taliban and the Pakistani Taliban are unreal!

What an unreal logic and argument.

Thank you!

If there are no Pakistani Taliban and there is no Afghani Taliban operating in Pakistan, then who are these characters who are going berserk against the govt forces?
 
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Very convenient.

The Afghani Are the real Taliban and the Pakistani Taliban are unreal!

What an unreal logic and argument.

Thank you!

If there are no Pakistani Taliban and there is no Afghani Taliban operating in Pakistan, then who are these characters who are going berserk against the govt forces?

Salim, how many times do you want me to repeat it before you understand it?

The Pakistani Taliban ARE fighting against the government forces. The Afghani Taliban are fighting against the NATO forces. These are two separate groups.

As for the "real Taliban" this refers to the original (Afghani) Taliban, not the tribals that were seeking fame after 2002.
 
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I don't think you have a choice.

I have a choice.

I will not exercise the choice to see more confused thoughts!

Your double talk and obfuscation has been well established and so I do not wish to get into it any more.

No Pakistani Taliban but there are Afghani Taliban and the latter are not in Pakistan and those who are there are taking the title for kicks!

In a nutshell, Flip and then a Flop! And then go back to a Flip and the cycle repeats!

Go through your post and you will find that you, too, will get muddled by what exactly you are meaning!
 
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Hi,

Some people want to hide behind nationalism. When they get offended they close their ears and don't want to hear anything. Ironically, that is 'THE TIME' to open up the mind and listen to what is being said---listen with an open mind and open heart---without prejudice---that is what differentiates the ordinary from the superstar---.

Not one person, not two people---but the whole of the world is talking---listen to what they are saying---the world still likes us---well---let me put it this way---the people who like us are more than those who don't---. We listen to our strategist on the pakistani TV---day after day---same analysis, similiar results, same old faces, same old mistakes----it is like 'THE RED QUEEN SYNDROME'---you are running and running, but then you find out that you are at the same place---you are at the same place because you have to run to be at the same place---if you don't run then you will be left behind---and if you want to get ahead of that place then you will have to run twice as fast. That is what I have been trying to tell and that is what I have been saying.

Some people are making the error that I am criticizing---well you are wrong---I am also giving a solution as well in how things need to be handled---I maybe right or I maybe wrong. So, I cannot be treated just as a critic.

In an analysis, you always have to see if the same mistakes are being repeated over and over, again and again, if there are changes that are being made and still the same results---then you need to find out who is leaking the information to the enemy---or there maybe a lack of desire on the part of junior officals to implement those changes that you want to make---people want to stick with 'KNOWN KNOWNS'. People don't like to make changes because we feel secure with the status quo.

Last but not least---please don't get mad at me---even though I don't mind it---it just bogs us down.:cheers:
 
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god i'm so sick of these militants don't they ever get tired of the fighting and suicide bombings ?? pak army is just so soft on them showing the enemy how weak they are which why they're so bold to keep attacking ! everytime something like this happens they try and make some sort of peace deal and go to tribal jirgas and the militants carry on roaming freely only to attack again.
They need to put their foot down and do something extreme what the hell is the PAF doing ?? they need to go and bomb the crap out these people .I guess this could be a good opportunity for an attack hundreds gathered in one place maybe send a cruise missile in there take out all of them at once or starve them out then beat the sh!t out of them plz no mercy anymore !

Again this battle is on home turf.

Carpet bombing the area will take out the militants but also their families.

Sure nato does it over the border but they can pack up and go home.

For example the Brits in Northern Ireland a conflict which lasted more than 30 years and has only been resolved in recent years.

Did they send in cruise missiles etc...?
 
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No Pakistani Taliban but there are Afghani Taliban and the latter are not in Pakistan and those who are there are taking the title for kicks!

Let me clarify.

Both Pakistani Taliban and Afghani Taliban exist. BUT Pakistani Taliban are holding their own territories against Pak Army forces, while Afghani Taliban are Afghani nationals that are fighting against NATO forces. But Pakistani Taliban and Afghani Taliban do not operate together. They are from different tribes generally. And the Taliban were not Pakistani, they were purely Afghani (the one ruling Afghanistan that is).

In a nutshell, Flip and then a Flop! And then go back to a Flip and the cycle repeats!

Go through your post and you will find that you, too, will get muddled by what exactly you are meaning!

You point out where it's muddled to you, and I'll clarify like above. It's pretty clear I think.
 
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It is over, civil war is about to erupt. It may get worse than Iraq (151,000 civilians dead, we'll see). It will take 20 years to recover from this, simply because Musharaff wanted to take US money (unpopular move, but intrinsically correct) and yet not do the job anyway (deadly mistake with risiing extremism and angry NATO).


Pakistani Army: Unwilling or Unable?
Twice in Two Days, Militants Rout Pakistani Troops in Troubled Tribal Regions

By GRETCHEN PETERS and NICK SCHIFRIN
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Jan. 17, 2008

For the second day in a row, Pakistani troops abandoned an army base in South Waziristan, a region along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border that is a stronghold for militants. And this time, the militants didn't even attack.

One hundred frontier troops in the Chagmalai Fort received threats from militants and apparently decided it was a better idea to flee than to stay and defend themselves, an intelligence source and local residents told ABC News. The fort was filled with heavy weaponry, including artillery guns and rocket propelled grenades.

"They've abandoned the place," Abid, who lives in the area, told ABC News as helicopters circled overhead. "They've made so many blockades, we can't even get food, and we only have three to four rations left."

The abandonment comes one day after 22 soldiers were killed by as many as 600 militants who overran the nearby Sararogha fort. It was one of the first times that militants have forcibly captured an army fort, representing an embarrassing defeat for the government and the Pakistani military.

The militants' victories are more evidence that the pro-Taliban insurgency is growing in Pakistan's tribal areas, and what little confidence there once was in the Pakistani military to fight back is virtually gone.

The military, analysts say, is unable -- or at least unwilling -- to stand up against the Taliban and its allies in the tribal areas, an area the size of Luxemburg along the border with Afghanistan. And the militants have managed to stop their infighting and unite themselves under the title of Taliban Movement of Pakistan.

"This group has decided that they will collectively respond to any military operation by the Pakistani authorities and they were demanding an end to the military operations by the Pakistan army in Waziristan, Swat and other areas," says Rahimullah Yusufzai, an ABC consultant who has covered the Taliban since its inception. "And they also gave a threat. That if these military operations were not stopped, then they would react: They would launch more attacks in Pakistan."

In a secret meeting held last month in South Waziristan, delegates from more than 26 militant groups joined forces and chose a man named Baitullah Mehsud as their leader, tribal sources told ABC News.

Mehsud, also known as the emir of South Waziristan, is described as a brutal and able leader who commands thousands of fighters. He is, for Pakistan, more dangerous than Osama bin Laden.

"He seems to have a large reservoir of suicide bombers, and he is a bigger threat in this region -- in Pakistan and certain border provinces of Afghanistan -- than even the al Qaeda leadership," Yusufzai said.

His attacks are getting more sophisticated. Militant groups from North and South Waziristan, who had never worked together before are now coordinating. Yusufzai called Mehsud's operational capabilites "remarkable."

"He's able to target the precise unit or department or organization, which is involved in military operations against him or his allies," Yusufzai said. "He's able to hit any place, any where, any time."

Although the militants never take responsibility for suicide attacks, which are now almost a daily event in Pakistan, analysts do link moves made by the military against Islamic radicals in the cities and in the frontier agencies with some 400 attacks in the last year. The targets are mostly police and soldiers, but civilians have died as well.

"They see an enemy at home," Council on Foreign Relations senior fellow Daniel Markey said of the militants. "The apparatus of the Pakistani state has turned from their protector and their supplier to an enemy, or at least an authority that is not theirs."

Pakistan is in the middle of its most violent nine months since $10 billion flowed here from the United States. It is, by some measures, the most violent period in Pakistani history, since it was born out of British India in 1947.

Since the government cracked down on heavily armed militants holed up in an Islamabad mosque last summer, there have been some 400 attacks, killing at least 3,000 people.

ABC News: Pakistani Army: Unwilling or Unable?
 
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You are talking rubbish by making a fine distinction between Pakistani Taliban and Afghan Taliban, who by their own definition do not recognize the border.

So many Pakistani Taliban have been captured within Afghanistan it is not funny. You think that NATO is enraged about nothing?

I don't have time now but may I just point out, since you've been so rude, that ostriches like you and Musharaff are solely responsible for the slaughter of FC soldiers and the state of Pakistan today.
 
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