Fareed Zakaria: Let’s be honest, Islam has a problem right now

[Steve781]

Wahabbhist preachers have a major influence in Britain

 

[Pride]

There is no problem with the ideology that needs abandoning. All that is needed is some evolution and refinement which will come with education.

I am unable to see how evolution and refinement will happen with education so please share your thought. Education teaches us science but It does not mean all the people started leaving their religion when they started believing Big Bang as evolution. Also, Communists were one of the most educated people in the world but Ideology created problem. Similarly, Sunni, Shia and Wahabi ideologies contradict many things. Don't you think we need to abandon them for evolution?

 

[al-Hasani]

I'm not a Muslim or somebody with a great knowledge of the various schools of it but my understanding is that most of the violence and terror we are seeing today can be traced back to a particular form of Islam originating in Saudi Arabia called Wahhabhism or Salafism. The number of Muslims subscribing to this worldview is growing every day due to the enormous sums spend on prosletyising it by oil rich Gulf States in the poorer, oil free parts of the Musim world.

More nonsense. There is nothing called "Wahhabism". All sects of Islam, Sunni, Shia Islam and Sufism originates in KSA. Blame KSA for that too.

Whatever the mainly South Asian Muslims do in your lovely UK I have nothing to do with and don't care about either. We got nothing to do with it.

Islam can never be stopped. So dream on.

 

[Steve781]

More nonsense. There is nothing called "Wahhabism". All sects of Islam, Sunni, Shia Islam and Sufism originates in KSA. Blame KSA for that too.

Whatever the mainly South Asian Muslims do in your lovely UK I have nothing to do with and don't care about either. We got nothing to do with it.

Islam can never be stopped. So dream on.

The mosque featured in that programme were directly financed by people in your government. Of course it has something to do with you.

 

[al-Hasani]

The mosque featured in that programme were directly financed by people in your government. Of course it has something to do with you.

Very good. Long may it continue. What are you going to do about it? Ban Islam? Try. There are millions of Muslims in the UK. They are not going anywhere. Thousands of natives ones too. They will only grow in numbers.

Cheer up.

 

[Norwegian]

The problem is not the percentage of ISIS fighters. The problem FZ points out is the lack of widespread protests in Muslim countries at what ISIS is doing

Exactly! In Norway we had protests against ISIS on the streets of capital Oslo few weeks ago. Surprisingly, it was white norwegians locals that had a huge turnout while very few Muslims themselves were present including those who organised the protests. Some reports said that local Muslim leaders were fighting with each other regarding who will "lead" the march! What unity!

More nonsense. There is nothing called "Wahhabism". All sects of Islam, Sunni, Shia Islam and Sufism originates in KSA. Blame KSA for that too.

There is no huge difference between Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia and ISIS:
You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia | Alastair Crooke

Well that is unfortunately the irony - while achievements in the Islamic world partially helped the renaissance in Europe, the Islamic world hasn't had a renaissance itself since. It would be its turn to look at Europe now to leap forward.

Islamic world cannot have renaissance unless Islam as it's practiced today is reformed.

Islam is perfect.

Was this a sarcastic statement?
Some medieval Islamic teachings are incompatible with modern secular liberal democracies of the Western world. Certainly Islam must be reformed if Muslim countries want to move forward from their backwardness into the age of science and enlightenment.

I'm not a Muslim or somebody with a great knowledge of the various schools of it but my understanding is that most of the violence and terror we are seeing today can be traced back to a particular form of Islam originating in Saudi Arabia called Wahhabhism or Salafism. The number of Muslims subscribing to this worldview is growing every day due to the enormous sums spend on prosletyising it by oil rich Gulf States in the poorer, oil free parts of the Musim world.

If you go to school in Saudi Arabia, what do you learn about people who are not followers of Wahhabi, of the prophet?

The religious curriculum in Saudi Arabia teaches you that people are basically two sides: Salafis [Wahhabis], who are the winners, the chosen ones, who will go to heaven, and the rest. The rest are Muslims and Christians and Jews and others.

They are either kafirs, who are deniers of God, or mushrak, putting gods next to God, or enervators, that's the lightest one. The enervators of religion who are they call the Sunni Muslims who ... for instance, celebrate Prophet Mohammed's birthday, and do some stuff that is not accepted by Salafis.

And all of these people are not accepted by Salafi as Muslims. As I said, "claimant to Islam." And all of these people are supposed to be hated, to be persecuted, even killed. And we have several clergy -- not one Salafi clergy -- who have said that against the Shi'a and against the other Muslims. And they have done it in Algeria, in Afghanistan. This is the same ideology. They just have the same opportunity.

Read full interview here of a Shiite who grew up in Saudi Arabia:
Analyses - Wahhabism | PBS - Saudi Time Bomb? | FRONTLINE | PBS

Islamic scientists did an awesome job from the period of Mohammed till about 1200 AD after which things ended up becoming more radical. The contribution to science from a lot of Islamic countries has been (arguably) negligible since.

Blame Imam Ghazali and Ibn Taymiyyah for that radicalism and extremism

There is no doubt denying the Koran, like any other religious text, is a wonderful work. The problem comes when people try to interpret it according to their own ways - and you could see how that has ended up making societies take several steps backward in the modern age.

True. Its the weird interpretation of the sacred text that generates the problem, not the text itself.

Research the word vimanasastra...

Pseudo-scientific bullshit:
Vaimānika Shāstra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I already discussed with the people. There is no chance of evolution unless you will reject some of the ideologies. Christians left some Ideologies, Hindus left ill practices but Islam is not moving, It is stuck at 700-800 claiming everything is perfect.

Great analysis. Another problem is that all attempts of reforming Islam, such as Ahmadiyya movement was brutally crushed by Orthodox bigots called Mullahs.

Unfortunately I don't see that happening in the near future. Change is not an option in Islam because what God said can't be changed. Reform is a natural course. Only a "luddite" opposes it but as I see it, most Muslims are conditioned to be such by the religion itself.

Islam can be modernized but it will take its time.

It's all politics, It's not Islam's fault.

Of course its Islam's fault. Muslims are migrating from Muslim majority countries to liberal secular Western countries, and NOT to other Muslim countries. Only this fact should enlighten something.

The only reasons Muslims look more like terrorists right now is not because there is any problem with Islam, it's because Muslims don't have Cruise Missiles, Aircraft Carriers and Drones to help them achieve their political goals.

Iran has cruise missiles, drones and all other military hardware, and is still designated as state-sponsor of terrorism by many countries:
Iran and state-sponsored terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's more political than it is Islam. I'm sure if Islam hadn't existed, the terrorists would have used some other ideology to brainwash people and use them for their political goals. Islam is just the trend for now, before it was Communism, now its Islam's turn to be used and abused and twisted around for politics and money.

But communism mostly had mostly local adherents, Islamic terrorism has global recruitment via internet and social media.

Anyway, this Bill Maher BS is getting a lot more publicity than it should be getting.

Bill Maher was quite popular before that too!!!

Very good. Long way it continue. What are you going to do about it. Ban Islam? Try.

Ban Islam? How did radical extremist terrorist movement of Wahhabism that didn't exist before 1700s become only true "Islam" just because its practiced by the House of Saud?

Then, about the whole stupid argument people have been repeating over and over and over again - that Muslims don't protest enough against ISIS, so they secretly support it or something.

Bollox! Whenever Israel attacks terrorist Hamas, the entire Muslim world is on the streets condemning Israeli "aggression" against defenseless Palestinians. Same thing happens whenever someone draws cartoons of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or writes a book that allegedly insulted his sacred narrative among Muslims. But God forbid if we happen to see such mass outrage of Muslims against ISIS terrorists who do their barbarism and terrorism in the name of Islam on daily basis!

PROTEST IS NOT EVEN REQUIRED!! Why do we protest? To show our state and our leaders that we disagree with something or that we would like some action to be taken. The whole world is already united against ISIS and multiple Muslim nations have already started bombing them and fighting them, along with western nations. There is no need to convince any leaders or any governments to take action - they already are.

More bullcrap! Muslims of the world must stand up and rally against atrocities committed by ISIS terrorists against fellow Muslims and other minorities of Iraq and Syria. Yet there is near total silence and media blackout on the issue. What are we afraid of? When we can unite against a small minority sect of Qadianis and prohibit them from calling themselves Muslims, why can't we unite as a Ummah and declare these takfiri-wahhabi terrorists as non-Muslims? This act alone would discourage further recruitment of young innocent Muslims by these ISIS thugs!

With Israel, an example everyone keeps bringing up, people need to protest because it is a nation that claims to be civilized and modern. Israel is also backed by the leaders of many nations and is supported by the whole West. ISIS makes no such claims, neither is it supported by any country (not directly atleast). The whole world is already against ISIS. There is no need to protest. Sure, we need to show ISIS we Muslims disagree with them, but I'm sure they'll understand that when they get their arses blown apart by Muslim pilots fighting for Muslim countries.

ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and various Gulf States. Its not a secret anymore:
The “State Sponsors” of ISIS, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey: Why are they No Subject to Sanctions? | Global Research

Of course there is a global NEED to protest against ISIS at its backers by both Muslims and non-Muslims alike!!!

PEOPLE DO NOT FEEL THE NEED TO PROTEST.

LOL Typical Muslim "logic".

However, I disagree with one really small thing - Islam doesn't need reform. MUSLIMS need reform. We Muslims need to start following Islam properly, especially all its principles that condemn the killing of innocents and preach peace. And we need to stop using Islam as a political tool and use it as a uniting ideology instead. Islam is a very powerful force that can unite half the world under one banner - only if we get our shit together and start using our own brains instead of blindly following whatever some misinformed Mullah tells us.

Islam needs reform. Unless we reform Islam from its bigoted version that preaches bias and violence against non-Muslims (kuffar) especially Jews and Christians and then call it Jihad, then there is no future for Islam. I have researched a lot and found ZERO, that's right zero reform movement in Islam. Unlike Christianity and Judaism that went through many historical reforms before reaching its current moderate state adaptable in the modern world, no such reform movement exists in Islam. The closest you come to such a reform movement in Islam is Ahmadiyya or Qadianism which is labeled intolerable and kaffir among majority of Muslims long time ago. In any case if a similar movement arises in the future, same thing would happen to them also as happened with Qadianis because of Muslim intolerance as a whole:
Liberal movements within Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The only difference is that religious war is justified with religion while normal war is justified with BS like "spreading democracy" and "WMDs, THEY HAVE WMDs!!!"

No war has been justified in history. That's why its called a "war"

I have said exactly this thing before on PDF. Just as Christianity evolved, so will Islam.

Good luck with that. Something that is deemed already "perfect" by all its followers cannot reform, lol

Hopefully, all religions will disappear and countries will be ruled by logic, science and evidence some day in the future.

The only worthy post on this thread so far.

 

[VCheng]

Was/is that not always the case with every religion, ideology etc? The reason why a tiny, tiny, tiny number of Muslims can realize their thinking into real acts is because many Muslim countries are unstable and suffer from wars.

If the similar number of Christian extremists (for instance) who call for the death of gays, lesbians etc. lived in similar conditions be certain that at least some of them would have put words into action.

This can be seen among Christian terrorist groups in Africa. Lords Resistance Army etc.

I am afraid that there will be retards always who try to transform their thinking into actions. But I agree that it should be dealt with and Muslim countries are also dealing with their radicals now. Saying otherwise is idiotic at least.

That is his point: That there should be a much stronger reaction against ISIS from within Muslim countries than has been seen until now, and the lack of such a response raises concerns about just how widespread sympathy for ISIS might run, deeply hidden, within these countries and the possible consequences thereof.

I was just pointing out the presentation of statistics: merely 0.001 % likelyhood of getting cystic fibrosis vs 100 times higher likelyhood of getting same disease than other group)
first one seems to be less of a problem ..second one is a cause of worry.
Again.. nothing to contribute to the topic, just making general point about presenting stats.

Bayes' Theorem 101.

I am unable to see how evolution and refinement will happen with education so please share your thought. Education teaches us science but It does not mean all the people started leaving their religion when they started believing Big Bang as evolution. Also, Communists were one of the most educated people in the world but Ideology created problem. Similarly, Sunni, Shia and Wahabi ideologies contradict many things. Don't you think we need to abandon them for evolution?

Education creates the awareness that lead to this evolution and refinement of religion, and nobody can stop this process.

Exactly! In Norway we had protests against ISIS on the streets of capital Oslo few weeks ago. Surprisingly, it was white norwegians locals that had a huge turnout while very few Muslims themselves were present including those who organised the protests. Some reports said that local Muslim leaders were fighting with each other regarding who will "lead" the march! What unity!

It is precisely this sort of thing that worries observers about how deep support for ISIS might run within Muslims at large.

 

[Zarvan]

When television host Bill Maher declares on his weekly show that “the Muslim world . . . has too much in common with ISIS ” and guest Sam Harris says that Islam is “the mother lode of bad ideas,” I understand why people are upset. Maher and Harris, an author, made crude simplifications and exaggerations. And yet, they were also talking about something real.

I know the arguments against speaking of Islam as violent and reactionary. It has a following of 1.6 billion people. Places such as Indonesia and India have hundreds of millions of Muslims who don’t fit these caricatures. That’s why Maher and Harris are guilty of gross generalizations. But let’s be honest. Islam has a problem today. The places that have trouble accommodating themselves to the modern world are disproportionately Muslim.

In 2013, of the top 10 groups that perpetrated terrorist attacks, seven were Muslim. Of the top 10 countries where terrorist attacks took place, seven were Muslim-majority. The Pew Research Center rates countries on the level of restrictions that governments impose on the free exercise of religion. Of the 24 most restrictive countries, 19 are Muslim-majority. Of the 21 countries that have laws against apostasy, all have Muslim majorities.

There is a cancer of extremism within Islam today. A small minority of Muslims celebrates violence and intolerance and harbors deeply reactionary attitudes toward women and minorities. While some confront these extremists, not enough do so, and the protests are not loud enough. How many mass rallies have been held against the Islamic State (also known as ISIS) in the Arab world today?

The caveat, “Islam today,” is important. The central problem with Maher’s and Harris’s analyses are that they take a reality — extremism in Islam — and describe it in ways that suggest it is inherent in Islam. Maher says Islam is “the only religion that acts like the Mafia, that will [expletive] kill you if you say the wrong thing, draw the wrong picture or write the wrong book.” He’s right about the viciousness but wrong to link it to “Islam” — instead of “some Muslims.”

Harris prides himself on being highly analytical — with a PhD, no less. I learned in graduate school that you can never explain a variable phenomenon with a fixed cause. So, if you are asserting that Islam is inherently violent and intolerant — “the mother lode of bad ideas” — then, since Islam has been around for 14 centuries, we should have seen 14 centuries of this behavior.

Harris should read Zachary Karabell’s book “Peace Be Upon You: Fourteen Centuries of Muslim, Christian and Jewish Conflict and Cooperation.” What he would discover is that there have been wars but also many centuries of peace. Islam has at times been at the cutting edge of modernity, but like today, it has also been the great laggard. As Karabell explained to me, “If you exclude the last 70 years or so, in general the Islamic world was more tolerant of minorities than the Christian world. That’s why there were more than a million Jews living in the Arab world until the early 1950s — nearly 200,000 in Iraq alone.”

If there were periods when the Islamic world was open, modern, tolerant and peaceful, this suggests that the problem is not in the religion’s essence and that things can change once more. So why is Maher making these comments? I understand that as a public intellectual he feels the need to speak what he sees as the unvarnished truth (though his “truth” is simplified and exaggerated). But surely there is another task for public intellectuals as well — to try to change the world for good.

Does he really think that comparing Islam to the Mafia will do this? Harris says that he wants to encourage “nominal Muslims who don’t take the faith seriously” to reform the religion. So, the strategy to reform Islam is to tell 1.6 billion Muslims, most of whom are pious and devout, that their religion is evil and they should stop taking it seriously?

That is not how Christianity moved from its centuries-long embrace of violence, crusades, inquisitions, witch-burning and intolerance to its modern state. On the contrary, intellectuals and theologians celebrated the elements of the religion that were tolerant, liberal and modern, and emphasized them, while giving devout Christians reasons to take pride in their faith. A similar approach — reform coupled with respect — will work with Islam over time.

The stakes are high in this debate. You can try to make news or you can make a difference. I hope Maher starts doing the latter.

Fareed Zakaria: Let’s be honest, Islam has a problem right now - The Washington Post

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This crap and lie was expected from this retard problem is with the country his country attacked Muslim countries his country supports idiot leaders his country keeps supporting Israel mass murder off people in palestine than expect there will be no issues

 

[Pride]

Education creates the awareness that lead to this evolution and refinement of religion, and nobody can stop this process.

You are plain and simple wrong here. You know many terrorists involved in the world were Engineer and MBAs. There is one more terrorism called "Intellectual Terrorism" where educated people uses technology and tools to propagate their ideologies. so No, Education alone will not do anything.

 

[DesiGuy]

Hopefully, all religions will disappear and countries will be ruled by logic, science and evidence some day in the future.

 

[VCheng]

You are plain and simple wrong here. You know many terrorists involved in the world were Engineer and MBAs. There is one more terrorism called "Intellectual Terrorism" where educated people uses technology and tools to propagate their ideologies. so No, Education alone will not do anything.

An educated society is far more powerful than mere educated individuals. It will happen as I say.

 

[Pride]

An educated society is far more powerful than mere educated individuals. It will happen as I say.

Sorry Buddy but I can't force you to believe the same but PDF is best example where all "Educated" people mud sling on each other so lets agree to disagree and move on.

 

[VCheng]

Sorry Buddy but I can't force you to believe the same but PDF is best example where all "Educated" people mud sling on each other so lets agree to disagree and move on.

Much of what happens here is drama encouraged by anonymity and ulterior motives, that is all. Real life is very different.

 

[Norwegian]

Education creates the awareness that lead to this evolution and refinement of religion, and nobody can stop this process.

THAT is true. But also the quality of education. If an entire nation is taught lies and false narratives through its educational system of propaganda, as its common in Iran and Saudi theocracies, you cannot expect any evolution of religion in those Shariah states at all!

 

[VCheng]

THAT is true. But also the quality of education. If an entire nation is taught lies and false narratives through its educational system of propaganda, as its common in Iran and Saudi theocracies, you cannot expect any evolution of religion in those Shariah states at all!

These false narratives will soon die out given the modern world and its media.