F-7

[EagleEyes]

Originally posted by miroslav@Nov 22 2005, 07:36 AM
MiG-21's are basically intercepters.

in IAF they will be covering the asses of MiG-21/23/27 and JAGS when they go for bombing.

MiG-21 will not go for any air fights. Fulcrums will handle that headeache.

Where as due to lack of Aircrafts F-7 has to play every kind of role since the aircrafts like F-16 will be engaged with Fulcrums/Vajra's and Flankers.

Thats the whole point.

Thanks,

Miro

[post=3443]Quoted post[/post]​

True that F-7s will be engaged in almost every role, but they will be mainly used for interceptors too, supporting F-16s and JF-17s in the future, and you may never know who will be countering Su-30MKI of yours, but then all comes down to the funds.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by WebMaster@Nov 23 2005, 05:36 AM
True that F-7s will be engaged in almost every role, but they will be mainly used for interceptors too, supporting F-16s and JF-17s in the future, and you may never know who will be countering Su-30MKI of yours, but then all comes down to the funds. 

[post=3487]Quoted post[/post]​

I have already mentioned on this forum. PAF need something beyond JF-17 and F-16.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[Best of the Best]

Damn now thats what i call an intelligent converstation keep it happy i am impressed my your knowledge happybirthdaytoyou anyways F-7PG i cant say for sure wether they are supriour to mig-21 bis but both aircrafts have there advantages.....

 

[Sharjeel]

i would think the orignal F7s where superior due to their ability to fire sidewinders.

 

[Owais]

Originally posted by Yahya@Nov 23 2005, 03:09 PM
i would think the orignal F7s where superior due to their ability to fire sidewinders.

[post=3511]Quoted post[/post]​

I dont think so, because F7s lacks BVR where as mig21bison upgrade have somewhat BVR capablity.

 

[Tiger Shark]

Originally posted by Owais@Nov 23 2005, 10:12 AM
I dont think so, because F7s lacks BVR where as mig21bison upgrade have somewhat BVR capablity.

[post=3514]Quoted post[/post]​

F-7PG has 200km more radius on internal fuel and is close to manevarability of F-16. certainly it can do with Su-30 and M2k in wvr fight due to its small size an high agility while Mirage willl fire BVR at safe distances on them. no opportunity for MIG-29 to entangle that far.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by happybirthdaytoyou@Nov 25 2005, 04:55 PM
F-7PG has 200km more radius on internal fuel and is close to manevarability of F-16. certainly it can do with Su-30 and M2k in wvr fight due to its small size an high agility while Mirage willl fire BVR at safe distances on them. no opportunity for MIG-29 to entangle that far.

[post=3665]Quoted post[/post]​

I don't agree on the author's claim of F-7 against the flankers and Fulcrums. Even Mirages.

Lets see MKI's avionics and weapons capability.

Avionics: - The Su-30MKI features an all-weather, digital multi-mode, dual frequency, forward facing NIIP N-011M radar which has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. The radar is combined with a helmet mounted sight system, which allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the TVC-capable R-73RDM2 missile. The radar's forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. The N-011M ensures a 20 metre resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km.

In March 1998, the IAF signed a contract with the French electronics manufacturer, Sextant Avionique, to add six liquid colour displays, five MFD 55s and one MFD 66, for both the pilot and his WSO (Weapons System Officer), the Totem inertial guidance system with the GPS technology and the VEH 3000 holographic HUD. Officials from Sexatant have acknowledged that they have already validated the GPS system on Sukhoi aircraft. The six LCDs have a wide-screen and are shielded to make it readable even in bright sunlight. All the flight information is displayed on these four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. The aircraft is fitted with a satellite navigation system, which permits it to make flights in all weathers; day and night. The navigation complex comprises an inertial directional system and short- and long-range radio navigation systems. It also has a laser attitude and a heading reference system. An automatic flight control system makes all phases of its flight automatic, including the combat employment of its weapons.

Weapons: -

The aircraft is fitted with a 30mm GSh-301 single-barrel gun which has a firing rate of 1500 - 1800 rds/min or 25 - 30 rds/sec. The gun has a maximum effective range of 1200 - 1800 meters (3937 - 5906 feet) against air targets and 200 - 800 meters (656 - 2625 feet) against ground targets. Has 170 rounds capacity with 150 rounds loaded. Can carry a variety of ordnance on 12 hard points, which can be increased to 14 by using multi-payload racks. For air-superiority missions, the Su-30MKI can carry air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat R-60MK and R-73RDM2 (up to six), the medium-range R-27RE1/TE1 (up to six/two) and the long-range R-77RVV-AE (up to six).

MiG-29

Avionics: Has a coherent, multimode pulse Doppler look-down/shoot-down engagement radar which has search and tracking capabilities. Has a HUD (head-up display) and helmet mounted target designation system, which is tied in with a laser range finder and an infra-red search & track. The IRST ball is mounted on a three-axis gimballed turret protruding above the nose in front of the cockpit.

The radar is supported by an optical-electronic navigation-attack system, which comprises a sighting system, a navigation system, a digital computer, a weapons control system, and a data presentation system with a HUD. The helmet mounted sight & target designator is available for use with the R-60MK and the R-73RDM2 close-combat missiles.

The navigation system includes a radio compass, a radar altimeter, a marker beacon receiver, and a short-range navigation and instrument landing system. The ground-air & air-ground data link for target indication from land-based radars, is joined by a communications radio. The aircraft also has an IFF transponder & interrogator.

Armament: Fitted with a 30mm GSh-30 gun with 170 rounds capacity and 150 rounds loaded. The gun has a maximum effective range of 1200 to 1800 meters against air targets and 200 to 800 meters against ground targets. It has a maximum firing rate of 25 to 30 rounds per second. IAF MiG-29s can be armed with a range of Russian air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat R-60MK and R-73RDM2, the medium-range R-27RE1/TE1 and the long-range R-77RVV-AE. French air-to-air missiles such as the Super 530D and Magic-II can also be carried.

Mirage-2000

Avionics: - IAF's Mirage 2000s are equipped with the Thomson-CSF RDM radar which allows multi-mode functioning. It is also fitted with an Antilope terrain-following radar for automatic flight, down to 61 meters. IAF Mirage 2000s are fitted with either the Litening laser designation pod or the Thomson-CSF ATLIS LDP for use with the Paveway II laser guided bombs.

Armament: Two internally-mounted 30mm guns with 125 rounds of ammunition. Nine external hard points can carry the Super 530D and Magic-II air-to-air missiles and the AS-30L and Matra ARMAT air-to-surface missiles, plus a variety of other guided & un-guided ordnance. The aircraft is also capable of carrying a tactical nuclear payload. IAF Mirage 2000 THs have used the Paveway II PGMs in Kargil.

Morale of the story: - The F-7PG is shot down even before it could see/detect anyone of them.

Let us not forget that F-7PG is a step brother of MiG-21. Only because it was induccted in the 90's in PAF that dosent give it any edge over planes like MiG-29 or Mirage-2000. Forget even about any tough fight.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by happybirthdaytoyou@Nov 22 2005, 04:46 PM
For Example in 1965 war India Mig 21 at that time Mig 21 is the Most Superior Aircraft but un-fortunately they were not able to use. What was reason the reason? Can you please explain?

[post=3433]Quoted post[/post]​

Don't debate with me if you dont know anything. You can atleast ask me for the info which you don't know; I will be glad to share knowledge.

MiG-21 in the 1965 War

As war clouds started brewing towards the end of August 1965, No.28 Sqn. was scheduled to move to Palam to implement night flying training. Chandigarh airfield did not possess a runway lighting system. The Squadron had no type trainers available at that time. When war broke out the day prior to the move, most of the pilots in the squadron were unsure of what their role was going to be. They had practiced set piece NATO style high altitude bomber interception but not the close combat tactics that were to see the light of the day.

A detachment of MiG-21s flew to Adampur airfield on the afternoon of 3 September 1965. Earlier that morning a PAF Sabre was shot down by Sqn. Ldr. Trevor Keelor flying a Gnat and the Gnat detachment reported the presence of Sidewinder-armed Starfighters in the area.

The next day four MiG-21FL aircraft flew from Adampur to Pathankot to fly "top cover missions" to the Mystere IV A aircraft carrying out strike and close air support missions, closely escorted by Gnats. Air Marshal M.S.D. Wollen, then Wg. Cdr., recounts his first combat experience in his own words;

On the afternoon of September 4th, Sqn. Ldr. Mukherjee and I flew a top cover mission to the Mysteres attacking advanced columns of the Pakistani Army. The Mysteres were intercepted by Sabres, probably from combat air patrol (CAP). Escorting Gnats tangled with the Sabres.

The R/T chatter was exhilarating, particularly the calls from a Gnat pilot (Flt. Lt. V.S. Pathania) reporting a Sabre destroyed. The aircraft engaged in combat were below us, but the GCI station, under whose direction we operated, had 'no pick-up' on their radar screen.

I decided to enter the 'arena' and dived earthwards. In a few seconds, we spotted some aircraft engaged in turning-combat, about 10,000 ft below us. Coming down, I closed in on a pair of aircraft turning hard left. When the range decreased to around 1.5 km, we had recognized the aircraft as our Mysteres.

As we eased Our turn, two Sabres, flying almost abreast of each other, crossed from left to right, below and in front of us. I wrenched my aircraft to the starboard (right) calling out to Mukherjee.

I picked up the Sabres heading northwest, very low and 1 o'clock to me. I went after the slightly lagging Sabre on the right. I later learnt that Mukherjee lost sight of me in the violent turn I had executed. The beastly pressure helmet/face piece is a bad thing to wear when dog-fighting.

With a good overtake speed, in a slight dive, I released a missile at around 1200 m, sighting through the 'fixed-ring and bead'; the radar cannot provide information so close to the ground. The missile sped towards the Sabre and exploded below it; perhaps ahead and on the ground.

In my excitement, I released the second missile when I was too close to the ground (90 m) and probably too close to the Sabre. For 0.6 seconds after release, the K-13 missile is unguided. During this time it headed downwards, started to flatten out and then struck the ground, not far ahead of me.

I engaged engine re-reheat, rapidly closed in on the Sabre, was tempted to brush against his fin and passed about six meters over the aircraft. Naturally, the PAF pilot was surprised/shaken. I asked Mukherjee to engage the second Sabre, but got no response. We 'rendezvoused' over Jammu airfield (above AA-gun range) and returned to Pathankot.

This was the only significant mission flown by No.28 Sqn. in the early days of the war. The performance of the K-13s in their initial debut was disappointing to say the least. The launch condition of the MiG-21's IR missile was particularly restrictive i.e. 2 g (6º bank angle) and most unsatisfying for pilots accustomed to maneuvering at 7 g, and firing their guns whenever they were able to track & range on a target using their gyro gun-sights (manual or radar ranging).

Besides pilots wore cumbersome, first generation pressure flying suits for every flight. There is no doubt if the K-13s were not so inferior they would have succeeded in bringing down their first kills of the war. As things were, the MiG-21s would have to wait another Six Years before they would draw blood.

The second occasion when the MiG-21s had to face the Sabres was rather one-sided. It was two days later on September 6th, when the Indian Army crossed the international border on an attack on Lahore in an effort to relieve pressure off the Chamb-Jaurian Sector.

No.28 Sqn had the ignominy of getting caught on the ground at Pathankot when PAF Sabres attacked. Pathankot was home to the detachment of the Gnats, the Vampires and the Mysteres besides the MiGs and when the Sabres attacked, they were literally caught napping. Luckily the MiGs escaped collateral damage. But one of the MiGs was destroyed in the attack. No.28 got through the war with eight of the MiGs remaining.

The PAF had repeatedly claimed that they encountered MiGs in combat in quite a number of occasions including one when a lone Starfighter was intercepted by two MiGs. However no record exists of such an encounter. The PAF also claimed to have destroyed most of the MiGs in its initial raid on Pathankot. This claim was belied when the Indian Air Force displayed its eight MiGs after the war during a fly-past.

The brief encounters during the war got the IAF thinking about the MiG. It had conducted trials with the K-13 AAMs after the war and these missiles failed even under ideal launch conditions. And after a lot of trials and tests the IAF insisted on various improvements on the MiG-21FL if the fighter was to meet its operational requirements. Among the changes required were effective brakes, quality tires, provision for a gun pack and a predictor gun sight. This resulted in a twin-barreled GSh-23 23mm cannon GP-9 pack which was fitted externally to the FL. As we will see, it was a fortuitous addition to the aircraft.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[Tiger Shark]

The Bison will be on rather short legs carrying 2xR-73 and 2xR-77. If it carries extra tanks it will have to sacrifice either it's WVR or the BWR capability. Basically the Bison has an edge at long range due to the R-77 but the F-7PG is more maneuverable with its double delta wing. Also the WP-13 is a newer engine than the R-25 and even if it is based on an old design and it supposedly benefits from modern technology to make it more fuel efficient so the F-7PG at least should have an edge as soon as the engagement degenerates into a dogfight. That aside this is a rather unikely comparisons. Both aircraft are point defense fighters designed to go after enemy strikers and should be fairly unlikely to run into each other. A more likely scenario would be Bisons vs. the PAF's upgraded Mirages or F-7PG's vs. say.. Indian Jaguars wouldn't it? This is of course a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors in an airbattle than just sensor range, endurance, missile range and maneuverability

 

[Tiger Shark]

IAF cannot send both MIG-29 and MIG-21 into PAF airbase for WVR combat but they can fire BVR just about border area. kopyo is limited range radar with smal fov to find targets on in own. it will need GCI or awacs support. same is the case of MIG-29. even M2K needed external tanks to carry bombing in its own terroritery.
Only Su-30 has the range and endurance to fight both wvr and bvr on other side and can be launched from deep inside bases. In PAF-IAF scenario air-tankers are more liability than asset. they will consume what every limited escort support is available and will show the location of strike package to the other side.

 

[Tiger Shark]

PAF-IAF fight will not like one F-7 meeting one Su-30MKI. ground based radars will detect MKI at 300 to 400km and bvr capable Mirages will be already at required height to confront them. if they misses them than there is SAM and than F-7 and F-16 for close in dog fight. ( its pretty comfortable with current strenght thats why no hurry in getting JF-17 and F-16).

 

[EagleEyes]

I have to agree with you. In the air warfare its not only AWAC's, radar detection of of an aircraft itself to engange in BVR or WVR conflict. It takes up the whole network, which includes ground based radar which communicate with the airplane. AWAC's are for an offensive war, i dont understand the point of AWAC's in the defensive war, since ground based long range radars would be doing the same thing and that to guide the ally planes to the right place and inform the incoming enemy aircraft.

AWAC's some what do help in the defensive war, but in that too airplanes will not rely on it all the time, first it will be the long range radars unless long range radars are already out ranged.

The most confusing thing is that we can't always rely on one tectic or one situation, its a battle in the air and it takes whole a lot of factors after that who ever has advantage over those factors wins.

F-7 was purchased to fulfill the flight hours for PAF pilots, also to counter the huge base of Mig-21s which is the back bone of IAF. It seems like F-7s are not that bad, they can do a pretty decent fight against other fighters of IAF if needed, but currently they lack in BVR fight, but i doubt PAF stayed without BVR for so long. We are internet researchers we dont get all the upto date and secret information, all we rely on is articles. I am sure PAF is not that stupid, it would have doing all it can to meet the standards of modern fighting.

Regards,
Ahsan F

Originally posted by happybirthdaytoyou@Nov 29 2005, 03:36 AM
PAF-IAF fight will not like one F-7 meeting one Su-30MKI. ground based radars will detect MKI at 300 to 400km and bvr capable Mirages will be already at required height to confront them. if they misses them than there is SAM and than F-7 and F-16 for close in dog fight. ( its pretty comfortable with current strenght thats why no hurry in getting JF-17 and F-16).

[post=4003]Quoted post[/post]​

 

[sigatoka]

Isn't the F-7 just a derivative of Mig-21 and therefore the main differences between the two would be missile systems and electronics??

 

[EagleEyes]

Originally posted by sigatoka@Dec 3 2005, 01:40 AM
Isn't the F-7 just a derivative of Mig-21 and therefore the main differences between the two would be missile systems and electronics??

[post=4254]Quoted post[/post]​

Thats true. Mig-21 have all the Russian weapons and electronics, where as F-7s have Russian clone weapons (Chinese.)

But some of the stuff in F-7s was later modified in PAC, also some western electronics were later equipped in it.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 4 2005, 12:45 PM
But some of the stuff in F-7s was later modified in PAC, also some western electronics were later equipped in it.

[post=4371]Quoted post[/post]​

Read the MiG-21 Bison Programme of IAF again in the same thread.

Thanks,

Miro