F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[satishkumarcsc]

Well You people talk about Sunburn (moskit) missile is the Type-730 CIWS capable of taking down the Klub and Brahmos which are advanced variants to it?...These are the 2 major AShM that are on the Indian ships and it's ranges are 250 to 300Kms.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Well You people talk about Sunburn (moskit) missile is the Type-730 CIWS capable of taking down the Klub and Brahmos which are advanced variants to it?...These are the 2 major AShM that are on the Indian ships and it's ranges are 250 to 300Kms.

yes it is capable.... sub-sonic sea skimming AShM like Harpoon are much harder to detect then super sonic due to its higer altitude approach... and F-22P can direct both of its CIWS on same target.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

After your this statement sir, i guess i should stop posting on this thread, as u r in no way listening to what others or me are trying to say, but u just want to believe what ur heart tell u. And that is F-22P is B.S, even without knowing wht its full capabilities are & wht its sensors are in real.
In my opinion the equipment of F-22P has not been truly revealed for secrecy reasons to keep them a surprise so that its full capability is not revealed.

And as for change in Harpoon or Exocet missiles, kindly check their specifications, they don't have any extra thing added to make them more lethal. No matter how much advanced Harpoon becomes, the main thing is speed of the missile to defeat the CIWS, which both these missiles don't have. And also check the specifications of C-803 which F-22P is going to have. Mach 2.0 at last leg of its journey.

As for Harpoon Block II, even USN has not acquired them.

And as for Type-730 CIWS, its capability is equal to Goal Keeper or may be superior. The land version can be used to attack Precision Guided Bombs launched from aircraft, i do hope you can imagine at what speed and how small are PGMs. In tests of Type-730 CIWS, it downed HJ series ATGM, which are way too small compared to harpoon, Exocet or any other ASM. Also in tests, it took down 4 or 5 missiles with 5 secs time apart.

The only missile which can seriously defeat a CIWS is the russian sunburn (Moskit) series which attacks at around Mach 2+ or 3 if i remember right & last phase of attack is in an S shape to make it harder for the CIWS to target it.

Harpoon or Exocet gives the ships 2 to 3 minutes warning time, while C-803 or Sunburn series missiles give less then 1 min and in some reports around 30 seconds to detect.

I can keep on going into further details of the systems but it may be of no use.


The latest Chinese ASM missiles are feared more then harpoons or Exocet missiles.

The defensive weapons and offensive weapons of F-22P are way better then harpoons or Exocet missiles and single american CIWS on PN ships.

The only thing left is its electronic counter measure systems, radars and stuff, which i do believe would be good enough to counter IN.

I had read somewhere that PN is going to or was or is thinking to change the American CIWS on its current ships with Type-730.

And China has always given us their latest & top of the line weapon systems, JF-17 & J-10B, AEW&C, AK, HJ-8 series ATGM, MANPADS, missiles etc etc.

Looking at the history, i don't have any doubt that F-22P has the latest & most recent Chinese weapon system not old outdated ones.

Bro, its a request to kindly do listen to other peoples remarks and analyze them with care and see what is good in Chinese weapons & options and what is good about western.

Western are good no doubt, but sanctions, cost of spare parts, easy access to technology of different things, production rate etc etc all are factors to consider.

You know a lot about this, what's your background friend?

 

[TaimiKhan]

C-803 ASM Specifications:

* Length: 6 - 7 m
* Weight: 850 – 1200 kg
* Diameter: 0.36 m
* Range: 120 - 255+ km (depending on launch platform)
* Cruising altitude: 10 – 50 m for initial target approach phase, 5 m for final/terminal phase (~20 km from target)
* Speed:
o Subsonic for initial target approach phase
o Mach 1.3 for intermediary target approach phase (~30 km from target)
o Mach 1.7 for final target approach phase (~20 km from target)
o Mach 2 for terminal phase (~8 km from target)
* Propulsion: Solid-fuel rocket booster and turbojet engine
* Warhead: 165 kg semi-armour-piercing

Moskit SS-N-22 Sunburn

FAS Website "The 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles have the fastest flying speed among all antiship missiles in today's world. It reaches Mach 3 at a high altitude and its maximum low-altitude speed is M2.2, triple the speed of the American Harpoon. The missile takes only 2 minutes to cover its full range and manufacturers state that 1-2 missiles could incapacitate a destroyer while 1-5 missiles could sink a 20000 ton merchantman. An extended range missile, 9M80E is now available.

When slower missiles, like the French Exocet are used, the maximum theoretical response time for the defending ship is 150-120 seconds. This provides time to launch countermeasures and employ jamming before deploying "hard" defense tactics such as launching missiles and using quick-firing artillery. But the 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles are extremely fast and give the defending side a maximum theoretical response time of merely 25-30 seconds, rendering it extremely difficult employ jamming and countermeasures, let alone fire missiles and quick-firing artillery. "


Specifications:
* Launch range, km:
o min 10
o max (3M-80E/3M-80E1) 120/100

* Missile flight speed: 2,800 km/h
* Missile cruising altitude: 20 m
* Launch sector relative to ship’s lateral plane, ang.deg ±60
* Launch readiness time, sec:
o From missile power-on till first launch: 50 s
o From combat-ready status: 11 s
* Inter-missile launch time (in a salvo), sec: 5
* Launch weight:
o 3M-80E missile 4,150 kg
o 3M-80E1 missile 3,970 kg
* Warhead type penetrator
* Warhead weight, kg 300
* Dimensions, m:
o Length 9.385
o Body diameter 0.8
o Wing span 2.1
o Folded wing/empennage span, m 1.3

All of the latest ASM are sea-skimming, Sea skimming anti-ship missiles try to fly as low as is practically achievable, which is almost always below 50 meters (150 ft), and is often down towards 5 meters (15 ft).

Further Reading

http://www.ausairpower.net/ascms.pdf

China Air and Naval Power: Search results for Type 730 CIWS

Harpoon we all know about, so if analysis is done, it will be evident which one is superior in performance. Harpoon has a heavier warhead then chinese C-803, and the only thing which makes harpoon superior is its electronics, only of the latest ones which we just ordered 130 to 150 in total.

A very good article about PN ASM & IN ASM analysis.

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

 

[TaimiKhan]

U.S. Navy Aircraft Carriers Vulnerable to SS-N-27B Sizzler Anti-Ship Missile

 

[TaimiKhan]

If Harpoons are that good, i don't understand why US don't have Block II themselves or why Block III was canceled ??

And why is US going for hypersonic ASM to beat the defensive weapons of ships.

Research begins on new anti-ship missile - Navy News, news from Iraq - Navy Times

Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM)

 

[TaimiKhan]

You know a lot about this, what's your background friend?

My knowing about this is making no difference anyway am a simple white collar job doing kind of guy, having some military background and wastes a lot of time reading about weapon systems & all other stuff about military things.

 

[Penguin]

now now now, since when "range" become the critaria for judging weapon's accurcy and lethality? AIM-54 has more range then SD-10.

Who said I compared by range (only)? Meanwhile you are comparing the 1960s 'long' range Phoenix missile (used only on US F-14) which was retired from USN service on September 30, 2004, with the post-2000 'medium' range SD-10 which is just coming online (and which would more correctly be compared to e.g. late 1980s AIM-120 AMRAAM or R-77 AA-12 Adder).

as far as i know... Phalanx are on board every type-21.

Even if that were the case (which I disagree with), then there are still only 3 ships with 4 Harpoon each: the other 3 carry a launcher for 5 LY-60 SAM. And IIRC not all 6 ships got Swedish 400mm ASW torps.

I will repeat again.. when one platform is replacing another it has to be more capabel in every perimeter... does F-22P have all that? no.
example.. take a look at jf-17s, which class of fighters its replacing.... thats what i call desisive technical edge over every perameters..

Only when assuming your threat, mission and doctrine haven't changed. The problem with the UK ships is not that they are bad (obsolete) per se but rather that they are old and the hull have already had crackling problems in the past and required strengthening. A new hull with comparable quality weapons is improvement, particularly if the weapons fit is more all round.

like i have said.. OHP, Milgem have much much better armaments..

Milgem with have:
1 x 76 mm Oto Melara
2 x 12.7 mm Aselsan STAMP Stabilized Machine Gun Platform
8 x Harpoon (or RBS15 Mk.III or NSM) AShM
21 x RAM SAM
2 x 324 mm Mk.32 triple launchers for Mk.46 torpedoes
1 Helicopter

That's all very comparable to the fit of F22P in all respects

Note Mk.41 VLS and ESSM are reserved for the projected F-100 class, which is related but somewhat larger than Milgem and which will serve to test many systems of the projected TF2000 AAW frigate class.

Presently in service OHPs have a 76mm gun, a Phalanx CIWS, 2x3 Mk.32 triple launchers for Mk.46 torpedoes and 2 helicopters. They do no longer have the ability to fire Standard missiles or Harpoon (due to removal of the Mk13 launcher arm).

F-22P is a joke to modern frigates and it does not have the right to called "state of the art".

Nowhere in the discussion did I call them that. However, the discussion was not about whether F22P is state of the art. The discussion is about whether F22P is a waste of money. You think so, I don't. We disagree, that's all. No need to tie in your ego.

 

[Penguin]

yes it is capable.... sub-sonic sea skimming AShM like Harpoon are much harder to detect then super sonic due to its higer altitude approach... and F-22P can direct both of its CIWS on same target.

An advantage over a single Phalanx, therefore?

 

[hazi]

Turkey’s MİLGEM to build military ships for Pakistan

Turkey and Pakistan will cooperate on a venture to supply warships developed under MİLGEM, Turkey’s national ship project, to the Pakistani Naval Force.

The MİLGEM project, carried out jointly by Turkey’s Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) and the Turkish Naval Forces, is a landmark project that developed the country’s first corvette-class warship.
The STM defense company is working on the MİLGEM project. Speaking to Turkish journalists yesterday in Karachi, which is currently hosting the fifth International Defense Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2008, Savaş Onur, a retired admiral who is currently the MİLGEM project manager, said the fair has been a very good opportunity for Turkish defense companies to promote their projects. “We also display MİLGEM here, which is one of the most important projects Turkey has produced in the past few years.”

Onur said the project was of a scale that would have a long-term impact on the Turkish shipbuilding and defense industries. “Pakistan needs more ships like this. We are planning to carry out a joint project with Pakistan for these corvettes.”

Onur said that more than 50 Turkish firms -- including the largest defense firms, Aselsan, Havelsan and STM -- have played a role in the MİLGEM project, gaining invaluable experience in warship building.

He said the three defense firms have merged forces to supply Pakistan’s demand for corvette ships. “This is a four ship corvette project. The first ship will be designed and built in Turkey, while the three others will be built in Pakistan’s military shipyards. This is really a comprehensive project. It is expected to last 10 years,” he said.

He noted that Turkey has had talks with Pakistan about this project for nearly two years. “We can say that we are reaching an agreement. I think we will realize the project successfully. The Turkish defense industry has the capacity to manage such projects.”


29 November 2008,



I got this from a turkish newspaper called TODAYS ZAMAN

heres the link:http:
//www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=160147&bolum=100

 

[hazi]

i think this is going to solve the issue.Pakistan navy are going to get both the
f-22p frigate from china and the Milgem corvettes from turkey.

 

[hazi]

Milgem it self isnt the corvette the corvette itself is Ada and milgem is the class also under the milgem class Turkey are reportedly building 4 frigates could anyone be kind enough to compare these frigates with the chines type-54a and the f-22p.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Milgem it self isnt the corvette the corvette itself is Ada and milgem is the class also under the milgem class Turkey are reportedly building 4 frigates could anyone be kind enough to compare these frigates with the chines type-54a and the f-22p.

Eight of the twelve Milgem class warships will be named the Ada class and will be classified as corvettes, while four of them will be named the F-100 class and will be classified as frigates.

F-22P can be compared with the Ada class in one way or another.

Type-054A is superior & can be compared with the F-100 version.

 

[hazi]

so are the f-100 superior than the f-22p

 

[Brahm0s]

And also keep in mind China plan on fighting a war for sustained period of time so they have their own assmebly lines.Unlike Pakistan or India we can fight war for weeks or at best 1-2 month only where as China can fight for long period of time.Brahmos you can import all the high tech stuff you want but the fact of matter is should China attack India it will destroy your country very badly economically and as well as your country infrastructure.

Friend infrastructure of INDIA? Have you seen infrastructure of india??? Its worse than pakistan. Now tell me when war starts between india and china which country would pay heavely??? Answer is 'country with better infrastructure'. If china destroys india's old ****** buildings we indian should thank it because than we make new one (better than previous one lol). When india destroys china's shinning buildings than do u know how much it would hurt china by economy? China far ahead in infrastructure friend. Sadly they aint have 'DEFENCE' to protect it. All they have is 'OFFENSIVE' weapons. Only america has the DEFENCE missile (patriot III) while india near to aquire our own defence missile by 2011 and japan too par with india in defence missile that can intercept incoming missiles. So in short 'who would pay heavily if war starts'? Answer is 'better infrastructure country' (if they cant stop incoming missiles).