PN New Helicopter Procurement

[BHarwana]

PN has Atr with weapons and sensors for various roles.

So please first suggest what do you want to achieve with helicopters for PN ships. Which specific role are you looking for.

Main role is of targeting of enemy ships and submairnes. As I said previously small ships cannot deploy with Sea King, also we only have limited number of Sea Kings. Helicopters can act as over the horizon targeting for ships and can also detect submarines before they become a threat to the ship. These are absolutely vital for any warship and our effectiveness will be severely diminished without onboard helicopters.

If you are looking for over the horizon role PN has aircrafts for them. If you want to counter small boats this area is not Somalia where you have such threats but for that purpose PN has fast attack crafts and helicopters. Attacking ships that PN has wast range of missiles. See it is difficult for you to define a role and if you break your request of helicopters down in roles you have consider a more efficient and economic solution. So first consider the scenario and identify role and look other options in PN and then think do we really need helos?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The asset used to track the sub was not declared so it will be hard to say that PN uses helos of aircrafts but they have the capability.

Some sources said it was a P3C

 

[BHarwana]

Here is a PNS aslat and see what helo it has so different ship use different helos.

Some sources said it was a P3C

I don't know never heard from any authentic source for it. But PN has many in air on sea and under water assets to do the job so don't know bro.

 

[Yasser76]

PN has Atr with weapons and sensors for various roles.

So please first suggest what do you want to achieve with helicopters for PN ships. Which specific role are you looking for.


If you are looking for over the horizon role PN has aircrafts for them. If you want to counter small boats this area is not Somalia where you have such threats but for that purpose PN has fast attack crafts and helicopters. Attacking ships that PN has wast range of missiles. See it is difficult for you to define a role and if you break your request of helicopters down in roles you have consider a more efficient and economic solution. So first consider the scenario and identify role and look other options in PN and then think do we really need helos?

I am not sure you understand about Naval warfare. Lets leave it at this. If you assume PN will always be operating under umbrella of P-3C/ATR you are fundementally wrong. Also these are western systems how will these integrate with Chinese assets.

The capability of any ship is greatly enhanced with helicopters. US Navy has P-3Cs and P-8s based literally on every continent of the world, but every ship they have, including aircraft carriers, also have helicopters for anti-sub and anti-ship warfare. Ask yourself why this is.

 

[BHarwana]

I am not sure you understand about Naval warfare. Lets leave it at this. If you assume PN will always be operating under umbrella of P-3C/ATR you are fundementally wrong. Also these are western systems how will these integrate with Chinese assets.

The capability of any ship is greatly enhanced with helicopters. US Navy has P-3Cs and P-8s based literally on every continent of the world, but every ship they have, including aircraft carriers, also have helicopters for anti-sub and anti-ship warfare. Ask yourself why this is.

My friend first of all let me make it clear you. I am just trying to explain you the situation at hand. I am not trying to deter you from asking questions or demanding something for your navy or making suggestions. You are at liberty to do so and it is a healthy thing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1073086394455732225

Now regarding the cover of P-3C/ATR. The anti ship and sub objectives you want to achieve with helicopters can better be achieved with air crafts. The give more flight time they can carry more sensors and they have more maneuverability.

Here is a tweet from navy in 2018. There is image of press release in which it clearly says ATR has sensors and weapons. So these navy ATRs are quite capable of taking out anything. Now I don't know what weapons they mean here. Harpoons, Except, or some domestic version of Air to sea system but we have them.

I am in now way saying ship based helicopters are not needed but if needed they should also have a role defined with them as well.

What you want is not helicopter you should make a thread helicopter carrier. That will solve the problem you want to address.

 

[Yasser76]

My friend first of all let me make it clear you. I am just trying to explain you the situation at hand. I am not trying to deter you from asking questions or demanding something for your navy or making suggestions. You are at liberty to do so and it is a healthy thing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1073086394455732225

Now regarding the cover of P-3C/ATR. The anti ship and sub objectives you want to achieve with helicopters can better be achieved with air crafts. The give more flight time they can carry more sensors and they have more maneuverability.

Here is a tweet from navy in 2018. There is image of press release in which it clearly says ATR has sensors and weapons. So these navy ATRs are quite capable of taking out anything. Now I don't know what weapons they mean here. Harpoons, Except, or some domestic version of Air to sea system but we have them.

I am in now way saying ship based helicopters are not needed but if needed they should also have a role defined with them as well.

What you want is not helicopter you should make a thread helicopter carrier. That will solve the problem you want to address.

Again, you are either not reading my responses properly or ignoring the points I am making so I will repeat myself for the final time.

1) ATR/P-3Cs are based in Pakistan and are limited in range. Pak naval vessels will often operate far out of range of these aircraft. Do you understand this? Also the numbers of MPAs are limited and flight costs very expensive compared to helicopters

2) Every modern warship of a decent size has it's own helicopter. This is for many reasons including anti-ship, anti-sub, SAR, anti-piracy. Some of these roles cannot be filled by aircraft even if they were within range

3) The helicopters can act as over the horizon eyes and ears of the ship beyond the range of the ships own sensors

4) If a PN ship has to board another vessel or rescue people at sea how do you propose we do this?

4)

 

[Muhammad Omar]

NH-90 and AW 159 are the best possible options available for PN and more Z-9's obviously

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Last I heard, the PN wanted a 10-11 ton multi-mission naval helicopter. It liked the NH90 NFH and, in turn, both Leonardo and Airbus Helicopters were offering packages. However, the PN might try to ask for surplus S-70s from the US (or get US approval for a third-party transfer). That is probably going to fail, so in the mean time, the PN might end up prioritizing a basic SAR helicopter to replace the Alouette IIIs. I was flatly told by Turkish Aerospace that the PN was interested in the T625, but I personally suspect the AW139 might win in the end.

 

[Bossman]

Just wanted to start a thread of this, as there seems to be a very urgent operational need for new medium sized helicopters for Pakistan Navy.

1) PN is acquiring 10 new platforms that will require helicopters 4 of these are Chinese (Type 54 Frigates) and 6 Western (MILGEM/DAMEN Frigate/Corvettes). Additionally the single OHP, 2 F-22P Frigates and 2 tankers will need helicopters. Also MSA operate 2 light corvettes that have helipads. So potentially 17 ships that require helicopters for various roles.

2) PN is retiring or has retired it's 7 Aloutte 3 helicopters and has 6 Z-9s and 8 Sea Kings remaining. The Z-9s while relatively new lack a missile capability or cannot be integrated with Western systems. The Sea Kings have been upgraded but are shore based and also cannot be used off smaller ships, also Sea Kings are often needed to support SSGN.

3) This leaves a massive capability gap, as this year and next years new ships will start being delivered and also older helicopters being withdrawn. Pak Navy needs to start inducting and training on new helicopters now but we have not even placed any orders yet. Chance most of our fleet will be without helicopter support

Procurement of new helicopters will be linked to induction of new ships. It is decided when the ships are being designed. The Damen and Malgem could very well have western choppers. More Z9s with Type 54s. The big ticket item would be replacement of the Sea Kings. That’s a few years down the road. I will put my money on Leanardo because of exciting relationship with the Army and the PAF.

 

[aziqbal]

PN should add a small hanger for rotary wing UAV on all its warships as well as helicopters

btw doesnt the Z9C have a terrible range like 50km its totally useless

 

[khanasifm]

Last I heard, the PN wanted a 10-11 ton multi-mission naval helicopter. It liked the NH90 NFH and, in turn, both Leonardo and Airbus Helicopters were offering packages. However, the PN might try to ask for surplus S-70s from the US (or get US approval for a third-party transfer). That is probably going to fail, so in the mean time, the PN might end up prioritizing a basic SAR helicopter to replace the Alouette IIIs. I was flatly told by Turkish Aerospace that the PN was interested in the T625, but I personally suspect the AW139 might win in the end.

Sh-70 was the case when Pn was expecting 6-8 US frigates past the one which is with pn I doubt that is the case now ???

Most probably for ship based more z-9ec will be added and sea king replacement down the road perhaps ...

Z-9ec are basically French technology and Sea king plenty stock available for spares and to keep pn 8-10 operational for at least 5/10 years

 

[khanasifm]

Not sure if Asw can be converted into sar with winch or few are for sar and some for. Asw?


https://www.paknavy.gov.pk/ASW_222.html

 

[khanasifm]

https://www.paknavy.gov.pk/ASW_333.html

Some older heli also had limited asw role but to think that’s is not the case any more ??

 

[mingle]

PN should look one vendor for all Heli leonardo is good for that's.

 

[khanasifm]