F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Righteous_Fire]

We've had a long discussion so far solely F22P centric, why not discuss or do a comparison of what the PN might have gone for instead, like some of these:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgem

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry_class_frigate

3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Fayette_class_frigate

and maybe others like:

4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_054_frigate

5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsen_class_frigate

Now, only some of these are practical, others arent but a discussion would be welcoming nonetheless

 

[Myth_buster_1]

sorry bahi dont mean to be disrespectful...

I follow rational thinking. See the history of our previous procurements and then weigh down your options for future procurements.You will see that the chinese out weigh every one.

China is not our father nor a muslim ally... they are here for their own interests.. i am affraid china could turn like US in future? well lets not get off topic... the point is... their are many option for PN and they could have used the money wisely.... opting a substandard frigate and hyping china-pak friendship is not healthy for pakistan.. yes no dough china is our good friend but that does not mean we have to turn to china every time.. you can not simply induct substandard systems just for the sake of in favor of our ally. F-22P is probibly the only thing i highly disagree when it comes to Pak inducting chinese war mechines.

Does it build jets of their own, does it build tanks of their own that are in mass numbers, do they have an early warning platform of their own.

no they are not building fighter jets but they are certainly building supirior Corvettes and R&Ding frigates... like i have said before... Milgem is supirior to F-22P but probably costs 30-40 million dollars more...

Tell that to PN especially when they are short of ships( in numbers) and they have a big bully neighbor with a big navy.

yes sir that is my main concern! why are we investing in a project that does not stand front of its oponent? have you checked out their talwar class frigates?? the thing is with 750million dollars budget you can probibly opt for 2 talwar class frigate instead of 4 F-22p... remember quality over quantity? you can not simply induct junks to full fill your quantity requirments..

With a history like that i am pretty sure that PN would opt for a more reliable partner. They don't want to get cooking oil like the PAF did when the US did not give us our F-16s.

yes that was our fault.. we tursted americans so much back in 60s and 80s like we do china today and paid them before the F-16s even arrived... they have already started latest block 52 production, armaments are on its way or in prossess of being inducted, training underway, faculty improved, shabaz base almost ready for new f-16s.. i am not saying US is our most trusted ally and we have to put all of our eggs in their basket..

Pakistan cannot afford a naval blockade and this is why it needs numbers (The nuclear red line/ boundary will be breached if Pakistan is in a naval blockade).

come on naaa... F-22P deny a IN blockade? lets see... just alone 1 type-214 ($470million) has alot more potential then 4 F-22P to give enemy some sort of resistence or force them to retreat.


F-22P deal is more of political or a possible chance of kick backs used in higher brass...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

We've had a long discussion so far solely F22P centric, why not discuss or do a comparison of what the PN might have gone for instead, like some of these:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgem

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry_class_frigate

3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Fayette_class_frigate

and maybe others like:

4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_054_frigate

5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsen_class_frigate

Now, only some of these are practical, others arent but a discussion would be welcoming nonetheless

Milgem is probibly more appropiate choice.. and by diverting F-22P funds to milgem project result us in 7-8 state of the art corvette fleet. F-22P does not even earn the right for "state of the art".

 

[Zulfiqar]

No body knows the future but the unlike americans the chinese have not imposed sanctions on us and it is a reliable more reliable buyer.

Milgem is superior to F-22P but probably costs 30-40 million dollars more...

The first milgem constructed for turkey is on sea trials and will be inducted in a few years(around 2011)

How many years do you expect PN to wait?

By that time we will have the four F-22 Ps in our inventory and most probably many other ships from other sources.

PN can't just live on 6 type-21s. This is why they procured F-22 Ps so that they have a fleet which equals 70-80% of their surface requirements.

Quantity does matter. BTW F-22 Ps are not that bad either. They have C-803s that has more range than our harpoons.

PN wants a fleet today. They can't wait for that many years. This is why they had to go for F-22 Ps. Kick backs or no Kick backs 4 F-22 Ps are much better than no additional ships at all.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The first milgem constructed for turkey is on sea trials and will be inducted in a few years(around 2011)

How many years do you expect PN to wait?

As if F-22P are going to make any big difference.. OHP could be a better stop gaps untill Milgem and Turkish new 4,000 tonne class frigate are ready...

PN can't just live on 6 type-21s. This is why they procured F-22 Ps so that they have a fleet which equals 70-80% of their surface requirements.

and you do know the armament t-21 carries are supirior to F-22's? harpoon, Phalanx, torpedos....

Quantity does matter. BTW F-22 Ps are not that bad either. They have C-803s that has more range than our harpoons.

yes F-22P is that bad because it involves huge amount of investment.. where as we could have opted for used frigates at cheaper costs and use them as stop gaps...

PN wants a fleet today. They can't wait for that many years. This is why they had to go for F-22 Ps. Kick backs or no Kick backs 4 F-22 Ps are much better than no additional ships at all.

F-22P was certianlly a bad move... 750 million dollars GONE!

 

[cabatli_53]

Does it build jets of their own,

No!!!

does it build tanks of their own that are in mass numbers,

YES !!! Altay project has already been started with S. Korean technological assistance at recent years . Until 2013, 4 Altay prototypes will be ready for trials... After gone to serial production phrase in 2 years, Turkey is going to have an assertive tank all around the World with all rights...

do they have an early warning platform of their own.

If you mentioned naval ships early warning systems, Yes !!! It is on development phrases in Aselsan-Meteksan and Tubitak institues... 360 degree early warning air defence (phased array) radars will be developed until 2015-16. That radars will be integrated to TF-2000 AAW destroyers... First TF-2000 Destroyers will be launched on sea until 2017-18...


Those dates can seen too long periods for military procurement schedules, especially for critical defence systems such as big naval ships, Tanks... but If the subject is to make cooperations to improve defence industrial skills to develop your owns for future, You should also go to stop-gap solutions until yours will be ready or cooperation programs will be finished as Turkey is doing now a days...

 

[Penguin]

and you do know the armament t-21 carries are supirior to F-22's? harpoon, Phalanx, torpedos....

Now now, now.

150km Harpoon vs. 180km C-802A or 200km C-803?

a single Phalanx (on 3 of 6 ships) versus2x 30mm 7-barrel gatlings and associated firecontrol radars (on all ships)?

2x3 asw torpedolaunchers in both cases, quality of Chines lightweight ASW torpedoes maybe not as good as Swedish torps but not bad torps.

 

[Penguin]

As far as i know F-22P are addition to PN surface fleet and they are not replacing Type-21.... the OHPs are as stop gaps..

That remains to be seen.

but still type-21 carries supirior armament like Harpoon, Phalanx, and torpedos, how ever its time for type-21 as a ship to retire...

Only 3 of 6 Type 21s carry Phalanx & Harpoon, and it is by no means a given that these systems are superior to the Chinese SSMs and CIWS on the F-22P (on all of them)

and you think F-22P can do just that? deny and hunt IN subs? dont kid yourself if your intention is just to contradict me..

Uhm I was speaking of 'frigates' as in 'in general'.' Do you think china is not capable of developing a halfway decent sonar suite or ASW-torp? What do you think is on Type 054A then? Or Type 052C? Why can't what's on these be on F-22P as well? How do you know its not. Some Type 053H3 have already been modified to take a compact towed array sonar.

and you do know that FREMM is probibly 4 times better then F-22P?

Says who, on the basis of what? I'm very sceptical of such statements.

And if you are saying that buidling "1" 1980s technology Frigate is going to help pakistan in any way in the future then you are badly mistaken.. even today's prototype or under developed frigates or corvettes are technically atleast 2-2.5 decades ahead of F-22P..

So, how many warships over say 1500 ton has Pakistan built already? Of course is a step forward in shipbuilding. You think e.g. Milgem with is 76mm gun and 21 round RAM launcher and helicopter is much more capable? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying F-22P is top of the line or the best available. I'm only saying they certainly are not the bottom of the line or a waste of money.

Dont take my words out of context.. i was merely speaking of "AK-176 which is used on 1980s 450tonne class corvettes... our Milgems that we have just singed MOU with turkey have ture state of the art 76mm main gun...

The Oto 76 was designed Compact: 1963 (Super Rapid: 1985) and produced Compact: 1964 (Super Rapid: 1988) . Not exactly a new gun, and found on many a small (under 500 ton) craft. Your point?
You think the Russian (like the Italians) haven't improved this gun over the years.

The 76.2mm AK-176 gun is of Soviet origin and has selectable rates of fire of 30, 60 and 120-130 rounds per minute. The 120 rpm could be achieved by firing a burst of 75 rounds, but afterwards the gun had to cool off for 25-30 minutes. This weapon is considered effective against missiles, consistently shooting down AT-2 Swatter anti-tank guided missiles, taking an average of 25 rounds per missile.

Its the russian Oto 76 equivalent, what's the problem with that?

so you are comparing induction time frame of substandard 25 years old frigate with a next generation submarine...? ohhh please...... and you do know by 2013 will PN have all four of its F-22P while if they build 3 u-boats at home it will be still inducted in shorter period of time then F-22P...

excuse me, if you go back in the thread, you will find that it was not I that brought up the submarine in the first place, so don't go blaming me for that comparison.

Substandard > your words, not mine.

The jiangwei 2 (type 053H3) on which F22P is based dates from 1998, not 1984. You can't seriously suggest the jiangwei 2 is not a substantially different design than jianghu 1.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Guys just see what the CIWS of F-22P can do to Exocet & Harpoon or any other ASM.

 

[Zulfiqar]

YES !!! Altay project has already been started with S. Korean technological assistance at recent years . Until 2013, 4 Altay prototypes will be ready for trials... After gone to serial production phrase in 2 years, Turkey is going to have an assertive tank all around the World with all rights...

I used the words "mass numbers" for this very reason. You don't have altay in mass numbers right now.

About early warning platforms. I was talking about airborne systems.

I do agree that we should cooperate with turkey and other countries for R&D and joint manufacturing of weapon systems but as a stop gap measure we need critical equipment very fast and this is why Pakistan opted for chinese early warning platforms, ships e.t.c e.t.c.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Guys do remember, China wants to be a superpower kind of status, for that they do need an effective & efficient military, and for that they are investing huge amount in R&D & other means too, to get as much technology as possible.
And learning from western equipment & tactics they know their weapon system should be at par or superior to western standards, resulting in good weapon systems which it is producing nowadays.

They are not dumb to invest huge amount of money and in the end get substandard weapon systems.

Their latest aircraft, ships, submarines, tank, infantry weapons, radars, MBRLs, electronic devices etc etc etc are a proof to this and I bet they are of good quality and standard too.

 

[TsAr]

Buying military equipment from China has many advantages.
- there is no issues with spare parts.
- secondly we gain the capability to build these ships in our own country as well.
- they are also cheap if compared with western ships

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Buying military equipment from China has many advantages.
- there is no issues with spare parts.
- secondly we gain the capability to build these ships in our own country as well.
- they are also cheap if compared with western ships

Its good if we invest in chinese equipment which is of their "top of the line". like Type-052 or 054 but not a substandard platform like F-22P. and dont know why people keep hyping about "we gain capability to build ships at home" as if we are not going to have this capability if with any other platform... you dont invest in substandard systems worth 750 million dollars just to "gain experience of building ships at home" plus we are only building one at home... not a big deal...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Now now, now.

150km Harpoon vs. 180km C-802A or 200km C-803?

now now now, since when "range" become the critaria for judging weapon's accurcy and lethality? AIM-54 has more range then SD-10.

a single Phalanx (on 3 of 6 ships) versus2x 30mm 7-barrel gatlings and associated firecontrol radars (on all ships)?

as far as i know... Phalanx are on board every type-21.
I will repeat again.. when one platform is replacing another it has to be more capabel in every perimeter... does F-22P have all that? no.
example.. take a look at jf-17s, which class of fighters its replacing.... thats what i call desisive technical edge over every perameters..

2x3 asw torpedolaunchers in both cases, quality of Chines lightweight ASW torpedoes maybe not as good as Swedish torps but not bad torps.

like i have said.. OHP, Milgem have much much better armaments.. F-22P is a joke to modern frigates and it does not have the right to called "state of the art".

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Guys just see what the CIWS of F-22P can do to Exocet & Harpoon or any other ASM.

3C2_hfrPkDg[/media] - Goalkeeper CIWS Gun System

Today's exocet and harpoons are nothing like 1980s. and i am affraid F-22P CIWS are not capable as current european version of goal keeper..