F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Myth_buster_1]

Yeah but only one. No one can tell the future and looking at the past trends it was much feasible to go for chinese equipment as they always come with the least hiccups.

PN cannot hope for best case scenarios. They need a supplier that can help them even when the other suppliers cannot.

We are only getting OHPs because of our MNNA status. We did not have that previously.



Well its a start.



Why not,if turkey can upgrade OHPs with VLS then why can't the chinese?

you are talking as if pakistan has no supplier other then china... wait.. arent we getting Erieyes, new and MLU F-16s, P-3, Type-214 etc???
and lol... OHP is has much bigger room for VLS while F-22P can best be fitted with a RAM type system..

 

[Righteous_Fire]

I have to say, thats a quality discussion between Growler and Taimi.

You guys have made me run for my money

I need to do more research before I post here

 

[Penguin]

Let's look at the quality of F-22P, the F-22P Class frigate is armed with 8 C-802 surface-to-surface and 8 HHQ-7 (improved ) surface-to-air missiles. However the F-22P uses the Russian AK-176M 76.2mm as its main gun, instead of the Chinese 100mm counterpart. Physically, the F-22P has a stealthier platform as it uses a lot of the Type 054 frigate’s Radar Cross Sectional (RCS) reduction concepts.The harbin Z9 helicopter can be armed with the CY sereis ane warfare anti submarine missiles, the C-701 and the TL-10light antiship missiles, four of which can be carried by the Harbin.

What we are looking for PN is quantity than quality in both defensive and offensive and also long lasting.

In my opinion, this F22P is more like defensive. If offensive, we require to have more DESTROYERS, am I correct?

- Quality? You are mainly looking at weapon systems used.
- There's nothing wrong with the AK 176.
- The 100mm gun on the newest PLAN ships is a copy/derivative of a French 100m gun
- Stealth? What stealth? Aside from a cleaner superstructure, not much imho. Though F22P probably is stealthier than the original 053H3
- defensive/offensive? Waht are you on about. There is no such inherent character in a ship: it depends on how it is used. Sure, a cruiser packs a bigger punch and can sustain itself longer in a hostile environment. But there is no need for destroyers to have offensive action.

 

[Penguin]

Disadvantage:

According to the F-22P's history, The 053-series frigates is China's most successful export warship. To date, one 053H1 was sold to Bangladesh, two to Egypt, and four 053T/053HT were sold to Thailand. Customer assessments of these ships were generally poor. The 053H1 (Jianghu I) ships sold to Bangladesh and Egypt were used and had equipment problems. The stabilizers didn't work, the ship either did not have air conditioning, or those equipped with air conditioning had to be used sparingly to save the generators. The 100 mm gun was hand-loaded and did not have a working fire-control radar. The SSM's were Chinese copies of the Soviet Styx missile, which was obsolete.

When Thailand ordered four new 053 frigates in 1990, China built them to the (then) latest 053H2 (Jianghu III) standard. Two were modified with helicopter decks in the back. Although the price was excellent (2 billion baht each, compared to 8 billion baht for western ships), the Thai Navy complained of quality issues. The interior wiring was exposed and had to be re-wired. The ship's battle damage control system was very limited, with poor quality fire-suppression system and water-tight locks. It's said that if the ship's hull was breached, rapid flooding would lead to loss of ship. The Thai Navy had to spent considerable time and effort to correct some of these issues.
The harsh criticisms lead to many improvements in China's shipbuilding industry.

Source

A little update on the 053-series frigates:
- The first hull of the Type 053H a.k.a. Jianghu I frigate, Changde (509), was commissioned in December 1974. Production stopped in 1980, after 14 units.
- In 1978, an improved variant of the Type 053H was introduced, known as Type 053H1 and referred to by the NATO as Jianghu-II. 8 units were built, the 5th of which was sold to Bangladesh in 1989 (i.e. used). The 7th and 8th hull were built for Egypt in 1984 and 1985 respectively.
- The Type 053H2 (NATO reporting name: Jianghu-III class) is a modernised variant of the Type 053H, with a total of 7 hulls constructed between 1985 and 1993. The Type 053H2 was the first PRC-built surface combatant to have been incorporated with modern Western design influence. Four hulls (3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th) were sold to the Royal Thai Navy, which received the first pair in 1991 and the second pair in 1992. Of the 4 only the last 2 are equipped with a helicopterdeck/hangar (like 063HT-H below).
- Single hull based on the Type 053H1 was built with special modifications (e.g. heli deck, hangar). Some indigenous and Western-made systems were also installed on the vessel for trial and evaluation. The frigate was designated Type 053HT-H by the PLA Navy, and was referred to by NATO as Jianghu-IV class. Construction began in November 1984 and she commissioned in December 1985.
- Referred to by the NATO as the Jianghu-V class, the Type 053H1G was generally based on the hull design of the Type 053H1 (Jianghu-II Class) but with improved weapon systems and better crew living conditions for its crew. The first hull launched in 1992 and commissioned in May 1993. The last hull commissioned in 1995. 6 units built under an emergency construction programme .
- The Type 053H2G (NATO codename: Jiangwei-I class) is the multirole missile frigate built by the Shanghai-based Hudong Shipyard (now Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard) in the early 1990s for the PLA Navy. A total of four hulls were built before the production stopped in favor of the more capable Type 053H3 (Jiangwei-II Class).
- The Type 053H3 (NATO reporting name: Jiangwei-II class) is the multirole missile frigate introduced in the 1990s as a follow-on to the Type 053H2G (Jiangwei-I Class). It is based on the hull design of the Type 053H2G, but with new weapon systems and sensors. A total of 10 ships were built for the PLA Navy between 1998 and 2005

Essentially, it is a fallacy to compare ships delivered to Egypt (1984, 1985), Bangladesh (1989) and Thailand (1991, 1992) with present day (2009) ships of the same lineage.
There's been tremendous improvement in China's naval shipdesign and -building capability (witness the newest ships). There have been successive improvements in these ships and in the associated ship building.
If quality was such a problem, and it didn't improve, then why have the Thai continued to order chinese ships for their navy (2x well armed OPV, 2x F25T frigate)?
As said "The harsh criticisms lead to many improvements in China's shipbuilding industry.", the fruits of which are visible in the Jiangwei II, F22P and the largest new PLAN units.
Really, there is no comparison between Jianghu II and Jiangwei II, let alone F22P.

 

[Zulfiqar]

you are talking as if pakistan has no supplier other then china... wait.. arent we getting Erieyes, new and MLU F-16s, P-3, Type-214 etc???
and lol... OHP is has much bigger room for VLS while F-22P can best be fitted with a RAM type system..

Except for P 3s none of them are here yet. Erieyes will arrive in few months( one that PAF now has is without radar). It will be years before our whole fleet gets MLUed. 214s will come after some years.

Our relationship with the US is fair weather relationship.

There is a reason that PN and PAF diversified its risk. This is why the number of erieyes has gone down because PAF will now procure the chinese ones too.

Its not about kickbacks.Its about setting an industrial and R&D foundation. Buying chinese early warning platforms will result in more long term R&D in our country.

Our Al-Khalids are not abrams but they have resulted in setting up a good industrial base.We will now develop better tanks.

Sometimes its better to settle for the second best or third best because its available rather than waiting for the best that will arrive in a few years.

 

[Penguin]

I still dont get why people keep on saying F-22P is a good value for money.... we have actually waisted our money on substandard frigates which no other modern navy uses.. other then pakistan only Azerbijian and Bangladesh have shown interest....

So, only a design that other nations are interested in too is good? Have you considered what these new ships are replacing, and how good those are?

Now remember "quality over quantity?"... FREMM can alone take down 3-4 F-22P on its own.. its main gun is only used on Russian patrol boat while we have it on a frigate...

Its not 14-18 where battleships and cruisers and destroyers face off at sea. Frigates hunt subs, and deny sea control to the opponent with their missiles. That's it. They don't face off at sea.
FREMM is at least twice as expensive, and I doubt the French would have it built in Pakistan if they can help it. Nor would Pakistan probably be ready to build such a ship domestically.
There is nothing wrong with the 76mm AK 176. You may have noticed the Chines stuck in on their Type 054A as well, replacing the 100mm gun used on the Type 054. Besides, many navies use a 76mm gun on frigates and larger vessels. Only it is desgined/made by Oto Melara of Italy.

the deal was signed in 2005 and the first frigate to arrive in pakistan is late 2009.. even if today we sign type-214 deal it will take 64 months for the first boat to be dilivered and that even after budiling them at home.. so dont know whats the short notice is about..
5 years is not a short notice...

4 years from initial order to delivery is short in terms of naval shipbuilding, really. In the 214 example, 64 months is 5 and a third years. That more than 4 years and if you think its fast - considering domestic production - then have you considered the possibility that some elements would be imported only to be put together in Pakistan (i.e. a building kit, at least for the first unit)?

Their are quite a few other option which offers latest technology rather get so much charged for a frigate which is technically 2 decades behind for its time.

- gowinds
- Milgem

i know they cant be build in short notice... but still by far the better technology...

And PN may well buy them or even build them (using the experience of domestically building F22P first)

So we waisted 750 million dollars just to facilitate our domestic building? i am pretty sure if PN can obsorb Agostas subs news frigates or corvettes should not be a problem.

Developing your ship building industry is expensive. And included in that amount are 4 usefull ships. Lets value those at $65 million each, and through in anothe $65 million for spares, weapon stock, training etc, just for the heck of it, then it costs only $425 million to get the capability to build major surface combattant domestically.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I don't understand why F-22P is being compared with OHP ???

Both are totally different ships. Type-054A is comparable to OHP not F-22P.

F-22P is around 2500 tonne displacement, while Type-054A & OHP are both 4000+ tonne ships, so it makes a hell of a difference between F-22P & OHP.

The 76mm gun is for light weight ships and F-22P is a light weight ship. Even the Chinese 4000+ tonne ship is using it.

If the weapon systems are so old or ineffective then why are they still in production ?? Goal Keeper is still being used and sold, french Dauphin helicopter is still being used and sold by so many other countries, even Americans are using them. The Chinese anti-ship missiles are in high demand and getting better day by day and are feared too.
The FL-3000N is ready for use, its the PN which has not for the time being selected it, its a CIWS not a proper SAM, it will be placed on the mounts where Type-730 has been installed. One Type-730 can take down 4 targets, so 2 will take down 6 to 8 missiles, what other kind of defensive capability do the ship needs ?? The SAM can take down ASM, so can the 76mm gun. 4 platforms can defend the ship.

OHP is a 30+ year old hull, and the 65$Million was the estimated price when the deal was done, it will increase once the overhaul is started.

Plus, wht are the chances that once we order western ships they will be delivered or we won't get sanctioned again ???

Chinese have made good achievements in last few years in the naval section as they are looking for a blue water navy, so for that they must have improved their ships and weapon systems.

It would be better that we compare OHP with Type-054A which may become our future acquisition.

As for Kickbacks, i don't think there would be any as Chinese don't do such stuff nor have I ever heard up till now. If kickbacks were there then the deal would have been much costlier & we would have gone for other chinese platforms too.
F-22P was needed by the PN for filings the gap or whatever u call it as western systems are reliable but not their commitments

Plus if u see any news about the deal, it says the ships, ToT, helicopters & ammunition is included in the deal, and the torpedoes & ASM & SAM are the ammunition, otherwise the weapon systems price would have been mentioned additionally.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Except for P 3s none of them are here yet. Erieyes will arrive in few months( one that PAF now has is without radar). It will be years before our whole fleet gets MLUed. 214s will come after some years.

so whats your point? pak is not going to get them? well at the end of the day Pakistan is still going to induct western systems which are supirior to chinese... this time pakistan has already planned for inducting whole lot of spares....

There is a reason that PN and PAF diversified its risk. This is why the number of erieyes has gone down because PAF will now procure the chinese ones too.

are chinese AEW as good as Erieye? no.... however good for Pakistan's indigenous manufacturing capability..

Its not about kickbacks.Its about setting an industrial and R&D foundation. Buying chinese early warning platforms will result in more long term R&D in our country.Our Al-Khalids are not abrams but they have resulted in setting up a good industrial base.We will now develop better tanks.

For god sake pakistan is merely bying 3 F-22P off the shelf and only buidling 1 at home without any indigenous systems input.. Al-Khalid was a good development... it also involved our R&D and indigenously built systems unlike F-22P and this deal does have some possiblity of kickbacks.. no point of inducting a platform which wont last long front of IN frigates..

Sometimes its better to settle for the second best or third best because its available rather than waiting for the best that will arrive in a few years.

No its not better becuase Pakistan will be spending precious money on substandard platform. again you are talking as if no one other then China is willing to provide us somthing..

 

[Zulfiqar]

For god sake pakistan is merely buying 3 F-22P off the shelf and only buidling 1 at home without any indigenous systems input.. Al-Khalid was a good development... it also involved our R&D and indigenously built systems unlike F-22P

Al-Khalid is actually a chinese tank with our modification. We had not built that tank from scratch.

A ship is a ship. Building it does improve our knowledge on manufacturing ships. You can't just say that it did not bring any technical knowledge back to us.

Its as important as the AK tank.


The chinese offer us soft credit terms on every weapon. Our JF-17s, J-10s, airborne early warning platforms, F-22 Ps are all on credit loans.

Name any country that will give a whole package like that almost all at once every time we ask for it.

When keeping history into perspective the europeans/western countries have been our fair weather friends. The weather won't always be fair.

You have your views and i have mine but in the end you can't change the fact that F-22 Ps are coming to Pakistan.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

So, only a design that other nations are interested in too is good? Have you considered what these new ships are replacing, and how good those are?

As far as i know F-22P are addition to PN surface fleet and they are not replacing Type-21.... the OHPs are as stop gaps.. but still type-21 carries supirior armament like Harpoon, Phalanx, and torpedos, how ever its time for type-21 as a ship to retire...

Its not 14-18 where battleships and cruisers and destroyers face off at sea. Frigates hunt subs, and deny sea control to the opponent with their missiles. That's it.

and you think F-22P can do just that? deny and hunt IN subs? dont kid yourself if your intention is just to contradict me..

FREMM is at least twice as expensive, and I doubt the French would have it built in Pakistan if they can help it. Nor would Pakistan probably be ready to build such a ship domestically.
There is nothing wrong with the 76mm AK 176. You may have noticed the Chines stuck in on their Type 054A as well, replacing the 100mm gun used on the Type 054. Besides, many navies use a 76mm gun on frigates and larger vessels. Only it is desgined/made by Oto Melara of Italy.

and you do know that FREMM is probibly 4 times better then F-22P?
And if you are saying that buidling "1" 1980s technology Frigate is going to help pakistan in any way in the future then you are badly mistaken.. even today's prototype or under developed frigates or corvettes are technically atleast 2-2.5 decades ahead of F-22P.. Dont take my words out of context.. i was merely speaking of "AK-176 which is used on 1980s 450tonne class corvettes... our Milgems that we have just singed MOU with turkey have ture state of the art 76mm main gun...

4 years from initial order to delivery is short in terms of naval shipbuilding, really. In the 214 example, 64 months is 5 and a third years. That more than 4 years and if you think its fast - considering domestic production - then have you considered the possibility that some elements would be imported only to be put together in Pakistan (i.e. a building kit, at least for the first unit)?

so you are comparing induction time frame of substandard 25 years old frigate with a next generation submarine...? ohhh please...... and you do know by 2013 will PN have all four of its F-22P while if they build 3 u-boats at home it will be still inducted in shorter period of time then F-22P...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

dude i am getting sick of your irrelevent posts which only refelcts your blind love affiar with china... most of your posts are only repeat of what i already know..

Al-Khalid is actually a chinese tank with our modification. We had not built that tank from scratch.

oh seriously like i didnt know that..

A ship is a ship. Building it does improve our knowledge on manufacturing ships. You can't just say that it did not bring any technical knowledge back to us.

If you wanna learn know how to build a frigate atleast invest in somthing that will be compatable to future requriments...

The chinese offer us soft credit terms on every weapon. Our JF-17s, J-10s, airborne early warning platforms, F-22 Ps are all on credit loans.

So is Type-214 deal?? so is F-16s and we are using most of american money...

Name any country that will give a whole package like that almost all at once every time we ask for it.

TURKEY!

You have your views and i have mine but in the end you can't change the fact that F-22 Ps are coming to Pakistan.

yes you are right every one is entitled to their opinion... IMO i wont be suprised to know chinese actually used kick backs to sell their substandard frigates to us when we are getting supirior OHP at cheaper prise... perhaps PN should have waited a lil bit more to double its investment in Milgem project..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I don't understand why F-22P is being compared with OHP ???

i am merely comparing the cost.. 65 vs 170

Both are totally different ships. Type-054A is comparable to OHP not F-22P. F-22P is around 2500 tonne displacement, while Type-054A & OHP are both 4000+ tonne ships, so it makes a hell of a difference between F-22P & OHP.

yep thats my point.. we have a better very cost effective deal with the americans on OHP which are supiror to F-22P and yet much much cheaper..

The 76mm gun is for light weight ships and F-22P is a light weight ship. Even the Chinese 4000+ tonne ship is using it.

their is nothing wrong with the use of 76mm gun.. i am mainly concerned about ak-174 which is a variant of 450tonne corvette gun.. their is some standard..... remeber "quality over quantity"?

If the weapon systems are so old or ineffective then why are they still in production ?? Goal Keeper is still being used and sold, french Dauphin helicopter is still being used and sold by so many other countries, even Americans are using them. The Chinese anti-ship missiles are in high demand and getting better day by day and are feared too.

please dont take my words out of context... these systems that china got from europe are one of the first blocks... like if china got their hands on F-16 block-15 25 years ago and cloned it today its quality and capability are not going to be any where colse to current american MLUs/blocks...

OHP is a 30+ year old hull, and the 65$Million was the estimated price when the deal was done, it will increase once the overhaul is started.

ufffff.... let me make it clear.. OHP is for free... however we have to pay for refurbishments whcih costs 65 million dollars..

Chinese have made good achievements in last few years in the naval section as they are looking for a blue water navy, so for that they must have improved their ships and weapon systems.

yess good for themmm... talking of "frigates" and are we getting something as good as their top of the line? what we are getting is merely peanuts..

As for Kickbacks, i don't think there would be any as Chinese don't do such stuff nor have I ever heard up till now. If kickbacks were there then the deal would have been much costlier & we would have gone for other chinese platforms too.
F-22P was needed by the PN for filings the gap or whatever u call it as western systems are reliable but not their commitments

buddy you are so deluded.

Plus if u see any news about the deal, it says the ships, ToT, helicopters & ammunition is included in the deal, and the torpedoes & ASM & SAM are the ammunition, otherwise the weapon systems price would have been mentioned additionally.

talking of AShM, SAM, torpedoes ammunition etc... lol our current type-21 has better if not as good as ...

 

[TaimiKhan]

i am merely comparing the cost.. 65 vs 170



yep thats my point.. we have a better very cost effective deal with the americans on OHP which are supiror to F-22P and yet much much cheaper..


their is nothing wrong with the use of 76mm gun.. i am mainly concerned about ak-174 which is a variant of 450tonne corvette gun.. their is some standard..... remeber "quality over quantity"?


please dont take my words out of context... these systems that china got from europe are one of the first blocks... like if china got their hands on F-16 block-15 25 years ago and cloned it today its quality and capability are not going to be any where colse to current american MLUs/blocks...


ufffff.... let me make it clear.. OHP is for free... however we have to pay for refurbishments whcih costs 65 million dollars..


yess good for themmm... talking of "frigates" and are we getting something as good as their top of the line? what we are getting is merely peanuts..



buddy you are so deluded.


talking of AShM, SAM, torpedoes ammunition etc... lol our current type-21 has better if not as good as ...

Sir, i totally agree with what u r saying, but problem is that OHP is based on american decisions, they may give us they may not, its their own choice, they may give it for free or they give it on cost. Just see the first one is going to get retired in 2010 and then refits would take i don't know how much time, and only one ship, the rest will be given as & when they get retired from USN. So do we wait till then ??? who knows what happens during all this time period.
On the other hand by the time we get one OHP we will be having 3 F-22Ps. We don't buy F-22P in order to wait for OHP due to its cost, and when time comes Americans refuse it or increase the price, where will PN then stand. In my opinion PN knows what it is doing, what ships they need and what to make of them.
F-22Ps are cheap and will be perfect for stop gap measures till the time we get more good ones or as u said western ones, but we can't rely on western sources anymore specially american ones.

And Chinese have made the weapons they got as block 1 more better with the passage of time, they copy and make the designs better & improved.

And the ASMs of Type-21 would be either harpoon or Exocet missiles, which can be easily shot down with any modern CIWS and indians have good ones. Other then that, i don't see any major difference between the Type-21 armament & F-22P. By the way the combat system and torpedoes of chinese origin are basically western copies.

 

[Super Falcon]

our subs are ade for deep strike in indian waters and ships to secure our waters if im not wrong even if we have bigger ships still in have edge over them becoz of numbers

 

[Zulfiqar]

dude i am getting sick of your irrelevent posts which only refelcts your blind love affiar with china... most of your posts are only repeat of what i already know..

Easy there with the rant dude.


I follow rational thinking. See the history of our previous procurements and then weigh down your options for future procurements.You will see that the chinese out weigh every one.

TURKEY!

Does it build jets of their own, does it build tanks of their own that are in mass numbers, do they have an early warning platform of their own.

The answer is no so your point is invalid.

perhaps PN should have waited a lil bit more to double its investment in Milgem project..

Tell that to PN especially when they are short of ships( in numbers) and they have a big bully neighbor with a big navy.

PN atleast has a requirement of more than 12 surface combat ships. In the 80s we had around that many when we had leased US ships in our inventory but the uncle sam imposed sanctions in the 90s and asked to return their ships.

With a history like that i am pretty sure that PN would opt for a more reliable partner. They don't want to get cooking oil like the PAF did when the US did not give us our F-16s.

Every navy,air force and army should have a minimum quantity of equipment. If the number is lower than our requirement, the nuclear red line will get lower. Pakistan cannot afford a naval blockade and this is why it needs numbers (The nuclear red line/ boundary will be breached if Pakistan is in a naval blockade).