F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Patriot]

Alright budddy Good For India.India will beat the crap out of China in war..happy now?

 

[aimarraul]

Friend infrastructure of INDIA? Have you seen infrastructure of india??? Its worse than pakistan. Now tell me when war starts between india and china which country would pay heavely??? Answer is 'country with better infrastructure'. If china destroys india's old ****** buildings we indian should thank it because than we make new one (better than previous one lol). When india destroys china's shinning buildings than do u know how much it would hurt china by economy? China far ahead in infrastructure friend. Sadly they aint have 'DEFENCE' to protect it. All they have is 'OFFENSIVE' weapons. Only america has the DEFENCE missile (patriot III) while india near to aquire our own defence missile by 2011 and japan too par with india in defence missile that can intercept incoming missiles. So in short 'who would pay heavily if war starts'? Answer is 'better infrastructure country' (if they cant stop incoming missiles).

my question : do you have money to build new one if you waste all your money on military

 

[SBD-3]

Friend infrastructure of INDIA? Have you seen infrastructure of india??? Its worse than pakistan. Now tell me when war starts between india and china which country would pay heavely??? Answer is 'country with better infrastructure'. If china destroys india's old ****** buildings we indian should thank it because than we make new one (better than previous one lol). When india destroys china's shinning buildings than do u know how much it would hurt china by economy? China far ahead in infrastructure friend. Sadly they aint have 'DEFENCE' to protect it. All they have is 'OFFENSIVE' weapons. Only america has the DEFENCE missile (patriot III) while india near to aquire our own defence missile by 2011 and japan too par with india in defence missile that can intercept incoming missiles. So in short 'who would pay heavily if war starts'? Answer is 'better infrastructure country' (if they cant stop incoming missiles).

dear it does not go the way you think.China is a big country what do you think they are developing infrastructure for?why does a country develop infrastructure for? it is developed for harmonization of developmental capacity.China will double its railway track by 2020 connecting all of its provinces through rail.the purpose is to shift the industrial concentration from eastern coastal cities to other underdeveloped provinces so given a reasonable time China will be in better position as compared to India as it will have a wide spread industry as against India which, due to the lack of infrastructure will have concentrations easy to target.
regarding second point China has acquired S-300MP SAMs from Russia which have range of 200 KM and serve as long range Anti Ballistic Shield. China has also developed its own variant FD-2000 (Not to be confused as FT-2000)
here is an extract from wiki

The land-based HQ-9 system has an anti-radiation variant, known as the FT-2000 for export. The export designation for air defense version is FD-2000 (with FD stands for Fang Dun [防盾], meaning defensive shield), and its developer China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) first made it public at the Africa Aerospace and Defence Exhibition held at Cape Town

hope this will serve the purpose

 

[Myth_buster_1]

i would be interesting in a source for this as well

2006
The contract also includes upgrading six Pakistan navy systems to the Block 1B. Eagles said Pakistan is currently operating the Block 0.

"Pakistan will send those back to us for overhaul," he said.


Janes 2004

Pakistan may receive six Raytheon Phalanx Block 1B close-in weapon systems and Block 1B upgrade kits for six in-service Block 0 systems. The Pentagon said that the Phalanx would provide Pakistan's surface ships with an improved defence capability against inbound aircraft, missiles and fast-moving surface craft.

and i believe the new Phalanx will be ground base version.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

C-803 ASM Specifications:

* Length: 6 - 7 m
* Weight: 850 – 1200 kg
* Diameter: 0.36 m
* Range: 120 - 255+ km (depending on launch platform)
* Cruising altitude: 10 – 50 m for initial target approach phase, 5 m for final/terminal phase (~20 km from target)
* Speed:
o Subsonic for initial target approach phase
o Mach 1.3 for intermediary target approach phase (~30 km from target)
o Mach 1.7 for final target approach phase (~20 km from target)
o Mach 2 for terminal phase (~8 km from target)
* Propulsion: Solid-fuel rocket booster and turbojet engine
* Warhead: 165 kg semi-armour-piercing

Moskit SS-N-22 Sunburn

FAS Website "The 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles have the fastest flying speed among all antiship missiles in today's world. It reaches Mach 3 at a high altitude and its maximum low-altitude speed is M2.2, triple the speed of the American Harpoon. The missile takes only 2 minutes to cover its full range and manufacturers state that 1-2 missiles could incapacitate a destroyer while 1-5 missiles could sink a 20000 ton merchantman. An extended range missile, 9M80E is now available.

When slower missiles, like the French Exocet are used, the maximum theoretical response time for the defending ship is 150-120 seconds. This provides time to launch countermeasures and employ jamming before deploying "hard" defense tactics such as launching missiles and using quick-firing artillery. But the 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles are extremely fast and give the defending side a maximum theoretical response time of merely 25-30 seconds, rendering it extremely difficult employ jamming and countermeasures, let alone fire missiles and quick-firing artillery. "


Specifications:
* Launch range, km:
o min 10
o max (3M-80E/3M-80E1) 120/100

* Missile flight speed: 2,800 km/h
* Missile cruising altitude: 20 m
* Launch sector relative to ship’s lateral plane, ang.deg ±60
* Launch readiness time, sec:
o From missile power-on till first launch: 50 s
o From combat-ready status: 11 s
* Inter-missile launch time (in a salvo), sec: 5
* Launch weight:
o 3M-80E missile 4,150 kg
o 3M-80E1 missile 3,970 kg
* Warhead type penetrator
* Warhead weight, kg 300
* Dimensions, m:
o Length 9.385
o Body diameter 0.8
o Wing span 2.1
o Folded wing/empennage span, m 1.3

All of the latest ASM are sea-skimming, Sea skimming anti-ship missiles try to fly as low as is practically achievable, which is almost always below 50 meters (150 ft), and is often down towards 5 meters (15 ft).

Further Reading

http://www.ausairpower.net/ascms.pdf

China Air and Naval Power: Search results for Type 730 CIWS

Harpoon we all know about, so if analysis is done, it will be evident which one is superior in performance. Harpoon has a heavier warhead then chinese C-803, and the only thing which makes harpoon superior is its electronics, only of the latest ones which we just ordered 130 to 150 in total.

A very good article about PN ASM & IN ASM analysis.

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

uffff... i am sick of this rediculous claims about C-803 being supirior to Harpoon, Exocet etc... for god sake C-803 is based on 1980s technology of Exocet...

 

[TaimiKhan]

uffff... i am sick of this rediculous claims about C-803 being supirior to Harpoon, Exocet etc... for god sake C-803 is based on 1980s technology of Exocet...

That's really strange then sir, as if C-803 is based on Exocet technology, then why is it flying thrice the speed of an Exocet & has a superior range then Exocet, whose Exocet Block III just got a 180KM range and the old ones have less then 100KM. Same for Harpoon, if C-803 is lets say an 80s version, i don't get how come it has more range & speed with sea skimming capability then Exocet & Harpoon.

And i don't also understand that even after the numbers of C-803 are superior then Harpoon & Exocet and when its a universal fact that subsonic missiles can be more easily destroyed by hard kill options then a supersonic missile u still favor the harpoon or Exocet.

Plus we have just or will get 150 or so of the latest harpoons, rest are of the 80s technology, whose operational status is not known as missiles have their shelf life too.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

If Harpoons are that good, i don't understand why US don't have Block II themselves or why Block III was canceled ??

And why is US going for hypersonic ASM to beat the defensive weapons of ships.

Research begins on new anti-ship missile - Navy News, news from Iraq - Navy Times

Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM)

Only if you get out of your "BLIND CHINA LOVE" bubble.

Pakistan is looking to buy 130 HARPOON Block II anti-ship missiles as well as associated equipment and services for its fleet of P-3 aircraft and submarines, according to the Pentagon.

The sale, which could cost as much as $370 million, will include 50 UGM- 84L (submarine-launched), 50 RGM-84L (surface-launched), and 30 AGM-84L (air- launched) Block II HARPOON missiles; 5 Encapsulated HARPOON Command Launch Systems; 115 containers; missile modifications; training devices; spare and repair parts; technical support; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; technical data and publications; U.S. Government and contractor engineering and

American future LRASM are not going to be like your average soviet AShM... read and understand what it is...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

That's really strange then sir, as if C-803 is based on Exocet technology, then why is it flying thrice the speed of an Exocet & has a superior range then Exocet, whose Exocet Block III just got a 180KM range and the old ones have less then 100KM. Same for Harpoon, if C-803 is lets say an 80s version, i don't get how come it has more range & speed with sea skimming capability then Exocet & Harpoon.

And i don't also understand that even after the numbers of C-803 are superior then Harpoon & Exocet and when its a universal fact that subsonic missiles can be more easily destroyed by hard kill options then a supersonic missile u still favor the harpoon or Exocet.

Plus we have just or will get 150 or so of the latest harpoons, rest are of the 80s technology, whose operational status is not known as missiles have their shelf life too.

ok keep living in your lala land.. keep being deluded about super alian chinese technology.... you are only making mockery out of yourself..

 

[Arsalan]

Friend infrastructure of INDIA? Have you seen infrastructure of india??? Its worse than pakistan. Now tell me when war starts between india and china which country would pay heavely??? Answer is 'country with better infrastructure'. If china destroys india's old ****** buildings we indian should thank it because than we make new one (better than previous one lol). When india destroys china's shinning buildings than do u know how much it would hurt china by economy? China far ahead in infrastructure friend. Sadly they aint have 'DEFENCE' to protect it. All they have is 'OFFENSIVE' weapons. Only america has the DEFENCE missile (patriot III) while india near to aquire our own defence missile by 2011 and japan too par with india in defence missile that can intercept incoming missiles. So in short 'who would pay heavily if war starts'? Answer is 'better infrastructure country' (if they cant stop incoming missiles).

so are you trying to say that no country should develop new infrastructure as when it will be destroyes it will cause more damage.

i mean are yo serious to say that countries with poor or old buildings will at good in war time,,,,,,,
well guys in US, i guess its a wake-up call for you people!!

 

[Arsalan]

ok keep living in your lala land.. keep being deluded about super alian chinese technology.... you are only making mockery out of yourself..

well it would have been a lot beter if you can prove him wrong by providing some facts rather then just taking it on wihtout much specs to talk about.
look with all respect for you, i was kind of surprised to go through this entire thread as most of the claim from your side were not backed up by authentic points based on actual specs of the systems you were caliming to be poor. apart from this there have been a lot of ground realities in support of the chines system.
i agree that we must not love any system and talk highly about it just because it is chines, but, similarly we must neither take it to be a nothing for the same reason of origin!
i will highly appreciate if you can take some time and try to understand what i actually wanted to say and just dont go fueming taking it as a personal offense. with our nice enough relation on this thread, i think it is my right to ask you about something that i take to be leading us the wrong way!

best wishes!
regards!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Only if you get out of your "BLIND CHINA LOVE" bubble.

I think in my posts i have not give any indication of Blind China Love statements. Kindly get your mind to start working and see that my posts have facts & figures to support, while your statements & stubborn insistence on harpoon is a Blind America Love attitude that you are not even considering or taking into perspective other ASMs. U have not given anything to prove that harpoon is a superior weapon system except for its heavier warhead & electronics nor can harpoon defeat any CIWS. And what will 150 harpoons do against IN, who are equipped with Barack AAM & Russian CIWS. If you read, nowadays a single ASM or even 2 ASM can't do any damage to a ship equipped with a good CIWS, u need a good tactical simultaneous attack capability to have good chances of hitting the ship. So kindly get out of your Blind Love for American Harpoon Missile & see that other capable missiles are available.

American future LRASM are not going to be like your average soviet AShM... read and understand what it is...

I posted it and read it quiet well enough and it was for your understanding that Subsonic & Supersonic missiles can be defeated & have countermeasures in the form of soft kill & hard kill options, this is the reason that the latest ships are being equipped with multiple hard kill options, the days of a single Phalanx CIWS are over. This is the reason that Americans are now going directly for Hypersonic ASM capability.

Man u made me talk so much and in return i did not get any useful information from you to show that what new Harpoon can do or how is it superior, rather American themselves are questioning its ability to destroy the ship and less ships are carrying them and are going for advanced ASMs.

And by the way Israel & Indians are very close friends nowadays, & Israel has Harpoons & its data, so don't you think the Israeli's would or might even have given the Indians the codes or other stuff related to harpoon so that In can counter them in case of war, just like what happened in the falkland war when french gave the british the codes to nullify the Exocet Missile which proved devastating in destroying 2 britich ships.

"The French gave Britain information on the Exocet - which sank the Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor - showing how to tamper with it."

How France helped the UK to win the war in the Falklands

So brother, its not fair to put all the eggs in one basket, diversification is necessary & I am pretty sure, the Israeli CIWS * AAM will be able to counter the harpoons we have pretty easily.

 

[TaimiKhan]

ok keep living in your lala land.. keep being deluded about super alian chinese technology.... you are only making mockery out of yourself..

You are making a mockery out of yourself bro by sticking to one tune, and i am not deluded, its you who has some research and thinking to do and see what is better for PN. It was you who said it is based on Exocet, so if it is why does not it have the same figures as Exocet ??

Any logical answer ???

 

[SBD-3]

so are you trying to say that no country should develop new infrastructure as when it will be destroyes it will cause more damage.

i mean are yo serious to say that countries with poor or old buildings will at good in war time,,,,,,,
well guys in US, i guess its a wake-up call for you people!!

even West is worried about what china is doing yesterday i saw an article in Far East Economic Review about china s rail plans.The author was pressing that it is no good for environment and should be abandoned.I was thinking "look whose talking".The highest emitter of green house gases is who? none else than USA.Who is the strongest opponent of Kyoto Accord None else than USA. they simply cant digest.The journal is always filled with criticism on China which i read and Luagh

 

[Arsalan]

well Sir Growler,
first of all, getting a 1 FREMM and 1 agost 90B is not a replacement of four frigates, i mean even if the FREMM is superior it does not serves the purpose of four frigates. if you need a hundred planes to defend your entire airspcce with an average plane you can never to it by ten high tech birds. i mean the number do matter.
nest, the claim if OPH frigates to be superior is and cant be backed up by any evidence. they are of different class. the only good they can bring is VLS for missiles but the ones comming to us lack this abiity, infact, they are stripped of most of there weaponary!
insisting a Phlanx1B, the best we MAY get to be superio then the chines CIWS is adain arguable. more over the OPH are some thirty year old ships, they will be comming in for 65 million dollar and many more will be spend on them for weapon system and also the helicopters? dont forget this. now you yourself have said in a post that OPH are more of a stop gap then do you really thiink that they are worth some 90-100 million dollar serving us for just 8 - 10 years when F22p, Type 54 would have served us for decades to come.
i hope this make you understand what i want to say,

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

moreover in favour of F22p, the design is modifed Type53 and have borrowed a lot of features from latest Chines Type54 giving it some stealth features including that of the main gun, better CIWS and SAM systems. they come, equipped with Z9 for anti-submarine warefare and that is what they are meant for, they are not heavy class missile frigates by any means..
ihope Mr. Tamim can confirm on this abd provide us wiht some additional specs of these equipment on board!