Def.pk op-ed: Mutual Blackmail, ETO for Afg, Pak and Ind

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Much of my gripe with Pakistani policy comes down to this point. We are trying to fight head on against a nation that is rapidly leaving us behind. Every day we don't negotiate and find a solution to our problems, the less leverage we have. The solution we could have accomplished in the 80s would've been far more beneficial than what we'll get today and tomorrow paints an even bleaker picture of Pakistan's standing in world politics, in relation to India.
India is on an inevitable rise to a prominent player on the world stage, Pakistan will be hard pressed to get any of its issues resolved in a world where India can easily influence international opinion in its favor. I am leaving out the military side of things, because, even at this point, our position is defensive...it completely contradicts the reason we have a large military in the first place. The idea was to liberate Kashmir, well at this point, our military is totally defensive in strength...is it not time for peace or compromise, simply because our goal is now impossible to accomplish?

What solution to the Kashmir dispute can Pakistan hope to obtain through negotiations with India, currently or in the near past?

How do you see the potential solutions arrived at through negotiations, in the future, being worse than those that could be arrived at through negotiations today?

Contrary to popular belief, the Kashmir Dispute is not the main factor holding Pakistan back - the factors affecting Pakistan's economic growth and development are the same as always - a corrupt ruling elite and billions of dollars annually lost through corruption and losses in the Public Sector Enterprises.

 

[VCheng]

................... It only needs to attain sufficient strength to be a credible and valued partner to any of the other major powers. That means focussing on our economy and foreign relations. .........................



And keep the popcorn handy.

Creating credibility and value is key, as you rightly point out, by concentrating on the economy and foreign relations. Well said.

 

[lem34]

I respect your opinion, but I think events will very likely prove me right rather than you.

Well Mr Cheng it wouldnt be unusual for you to be wrong would it. I submit as evidence your opening another thread as follows:

Default Ah memories!

I thoroughly enjoyed revisiting my old Introduction thread. I had given my self six weeks max, but I guess I have survived here much longer than that!

Introduction Thread

A year later you are still here. There were less variables in that prediction then in your present prediction

 

[VCheng]

Well Mr Cheng it wouldnt be unusual for you to be wrong would it. ..............

Oh I am often wrong, but never in doubt!

Of course, I keep evaluating evidence on a continuous basis, and am not averse to conceding should that happen.


(I think you wish I'd leave already! )

 

[lem34]

All it proves is that Pakistani politicians have succumbed to American pressure after Hillary's visit. Not that we expected much from them to start with. Nowhere does it imply that these moves are in Pakistan's national interest. In fact, coming from this government, it is almost a guarantee that they are not.

I thought we were debating whether this particular proposal would be in Pakistan's national interests. If all we are doing is predicting the next treason by Pakistan's politicains, then that's a whole different discussion.

It certainly doesnt prove that the scenario postulated by the OP has been accepted by pakistan establishment. Or that Pakistan have accepted being encircled by india and at the same time will assist in the encirclement of their closest allies. Just remember that india gave this status to pak in 1995/6 and we had kargill in 1999. I would suggest that on the contrary it could be to wrong foot america into continue taking troops out of afghanistan

 

[VCheng]

It certainly doesnt prove that the scenario postulated by the OP has been accepted by pakistan establishment. ..................

Could you please define the "establishment" in this case?

It seems to me that the democratically elected government is taking the lead in foreign policy, as it should. Or do you differ with that?

 

[lem34]

Oh I am often wrong, but never in doubt!

Of course, I keep evaluating evidence on a continuous basis, and am not averse to conceding should that happen.


(I think you wish I'd leave already! )

I put my money where my mouth is. I have balls. The hardest thing is to predict. However I have found on major geo political and financial decisions I have consistently been right. And made money from those decisions.

Pakistan is a very dangerous player. Despite corrupt political leaders there is no way in a million years that the scenario you have postulated will happen ever.

Pakistan is no Libya, Afghanistan or Iraq. And India though has done well relative to Pakistan has done crap compared to the likes of china. In fact for their resources and population I would find it embarrassing to be Indian and constantly compare my country to Pakistan.

It is India which if it wishes to fulfil the type of role that it wants it will have to deal on pakistans terms. And not by force but lots of bribing Pakistan e.g. kashmir.

 

[VCheng]

Iput my money where my mouth is. I have balls. The hardest thing is to predict. However I have found on major geo political and financial decisions I have consistently been right. And made money from those decisions.

Pakistan is a very dangerous player. Despite corrupt political leaders there is no way in a million years that the scenario you have postulated will happen ever.

Pakistan is no Libya, Afghanistan or Iraq. And India though has done well relative to Pakistan has done crap compared to the likes of china. In fact for their resources and population I would find it embarrassing to be Indian and constantly compare my country to Pakistan.

It is India which if it wishes to fulfil the type of role that it wants it will have to deal on pakistans terms. And not by force but lots of bribing Pakistan e.g. kashmir.

Like I said before, I respect your opinion, but I will also stand by mine.

 

[lem34]

Could you please define the "establishment" in this case?

It seems to me that the democratically elected government is taking the lead in foreign policy, as it should. Or do you differ with that?

Not political leaders. Army/ISI. what Frakkin crap you talk 3 million out of 180 million voted for PPP I think. Democracy something that America found convenient to disregard early on after mushys coup suddenly became something important when BB went to America and said she would support hot pursuit etc and Americans found that Mushy wasn't jumping as high for their interests as they wanted. Americans suddenly developed a conscience and they cared about poor Pakistanis who they felt deserved a voice and put pressure on Mush to do a deal with that bb aka as thief.

Don't talk about democracy to me. Its just an anaesthetic the west uses to soothe its collective conscience when they have done wrong.

Anyway when your OP has been thoroughly exposed as flawed go off topic

 

[VCheng]

...........................
Anyway when your OP has been thoroughly exposed as flawed go off topic

Well, flawed or not, I think that my OP is being implemented as we discuss this here. The Army/ISI will come along for the ride, one way or another, I foresee. (No offense intended to anybody.)

 

[lem34]

Like I said before, I respect your opinion, but I will also stand by mine.

Stand by your opinion. Thats a choice for you. But even indians have come on here and stated categorically that ignoring other actors is not an option. Face facts your op is flawed not just for the reasons I have put forward but what others have put up on this thread. You have argued earlier that its at least thought provoking. Its not its simply flawed wrong bad ugly and silly,

 

[LaBong]

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

For Pakistanis mired in a defeatist attitude, it is important to remember that India is not becoming the superpower like America. At most, it is going to be one of a multitude of major players -- most likely a junior player -- and there is going to be plenty of rivalry and politics at the top. With new power come new enemies (and friends).

So far, India has been the darling of the West because it is not taken seriously as a threat to their hegemony like China is. That calculation can change real fast.

Pakistan doesn't need to defeat India militarily, nor does it need to sacrifice its national interests in a panic to cosy up to India. It only needs to attain sufficient strength to be a credible and valued partner to any of the other major powers. That means focussing on our economy and foreign relations. It means forging new partnerships, but never at the expense of our existing allies.

The show hasn't even started yet. There is no need to panic and sacrifice our national interests. We need to focus on strengthening Pakistan.

And keep the popcorn handy.

India hasn't been a darling of west for most of her existence, rather it was pakistan who had been in bed with us since her inception. Let's roll back to 90s. Soviet union collapsed, India was at her economic rock bottom. Pakistan was close ally of both us and china, jihad meant struggle against heretics, taliban were students and hakkani was goodness personified! Could pakistan won back kashmir, even though IA only had outdated russian hardwares! What chances does it have against a resurgent india while playing an aggressor at mountains!

Pakistani people, jingoistic they could be, but slowly coming to terms with the inevitable, as can be witnessed by virtually no protest against the decision of giving india mfn.

 

[lem34]

Well, flawed or not, I think that my OP is being implemented as we discuss this here. The Army/ISI will come along for the ride, one way or another, I foresee. (No offense intended to anybody.)

How come Iran has started on oil pipeline to pakistan? Its far too early for you to draw comfort from this movement. In any event if what you suggested was happening and Pakistan was falling in line with american wishes and mark my words your op is what they want why the negative propaganda from americans?

 

[VCheng]

Stand by your opinion. ................

Thank you. I will!

---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

How come Iran has started on oil pipeline to pakistan? Its far too early for you to draw comfort from this movement. In any event if what you suggested was happening and Pakistan was falling in line with american wishes and mark my words your op is what they want why the negative propaganda from americans?

Has Pakistan secured $1.5 billion for its side of the pipeline? Any shovels hitting the ground yet?

 

[lem34]

India hasn't been a darling of west for most of her inception, rather it was pakistan who had been in bed with us since her inception. Let's roll back to 90s. Soviet union collapsed, India was at her economic rock bottom. Pakistan was close ally of both us and china, jihad meant struggle against heretics, taliban were students and hakkani was goodness personified! Could pakistan won back kashmir, even though IA only had outdated russian hardwares! What chances does it have against a resurgent india while playing an aggressor at mountains!

Pakistani people, jingoistic they could be, but slowly coming to terms with the inevitable, as can be witnessed by virtually no protest against the decision of giving india mfn.

India has only become the flavour of the month to stem the rise of china. No different to Pakistan being the darling in the eighties to stem the russians.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

Thank you. I will!

---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

Thats it take my words out of context and give yourself comfort that your flawed op has come to being.

Even when I have shown that you dont even know yourself tp predict whether you are on here for 6 weeks or a year you feel confident in predicting mission impossible