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But that's not like the public takes it and that's not like the forces will present it to the public (Indian forces as well!), because only when there is a certain fear, they can ask for more weapons and techs. The same reason why there are always news in Indian media or interviews with Indian defence officials when PAF gets F16s or JFT, although that's also just part of their modernisation plans.

And its the sum of all these fears that is the key to why we are here..
However, the MMRCA will bring a Massive(if there is an understatement) jump to the IAF's capability.. vis a vis China.
India may not be able to match it for sheer numbers even if it wanted to, but for simple comparison there is NOTHING that China holds now that can compete in the sophistication level of either of the MMRCA contenders.
And this may trigger a soft spot, but even the MKI falls short when it comes to the "completeness" of both the EF and Rafale.
Although here I would rather give Rafale the edge as it is more of a "complete" package than the Ef when it comes to the ability to carry out missions.. CAP,SWEEP,CAS,STRIKE,SEAD,ESCORT,ANTI-SHIP,BDA,INTERDICTION and probably more.
The EF promises these capabilities, but has yet to deliver.
 
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One of the most important point is left out here in case of Rafale, which is the weapon package..

As per M2k upgrade deal we are paying 1.9 million Euros per MICA missile, that too for 450 nos for 52 M2ks.

Means 8.7 missiles for one M2k, so given the same equation we need 1090 missile for Rafale...means $2.5 billion only required for BVR missiles apart from any other a2g weapons.

Both MMRCAs will most likely use METEOR as BVR missile, which makes the weapon procurement even more expensive, since it will be costly at the begining. On the other side, the M2Ks will be upgraded to be in service for anothe 10 years or so, but the weapons will have a longer life and Rafale is the only option to use them. That means Rafale benefits from this procurment for the Mirage, while the EF won't and you need to procure a whole new weapon package for it.
These costs will be part of MoDs lifecycle cost calculations, just like the costs per hour, costs for spares or fuel consumption. The results then will be one part of the further calculation to find the L1.


And this may trigger a soft spot, but even the MKI falls short when it comes to the "completeness" of both the EF and Rafale.

I wouldn't be so sure about this, because we don't know the actual content of the MKI upgrade. Technically, it can be very competitive to the MMRCAs, performancewise too, it's only downside is it the RCS, which can be reduced by design only to a certain extend. In multi role capability or completeness, only the Rafale is comparable, while the EF will be outclassed by far!
 
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I wouldn't be so sure about this, because we don't know the actual content of the MKI upgrade. Technically, it can be very competitive to the MMRCAs, performancewise too, it's only downside is it the RCS, which can be reduced by design only to a certain extend. In multi role capability or completeness, only the Rafale is comparable, while the EF will be outclassed by far!

As such we have yet to see the MKI's abilities demonstrated or displayed when it comes to its air to ground capabilities.
Dumb bombs are fine..and the Brahmos will be an excellent standoff asset.
But where it comes to the array of missions I laid out previously.. the MKI cannot compete with the Rafale or even the EF in variety.

As far as RCS is concerned, hang a couple of Missiles on either MMRCA and the RCS there will shoot up as well.
Possibly off topic but the MKI could go the way of the F-15SE where it comes to stealth enhancements.
 
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I dont think you even need the MMRCA against the PAF.
IAF's "second line" forces are enough.. such as the Jaguars, M2K's and Mig-29's.. given a punch up by the MKI's.
The MMRCA's can sit quietly at the side for the PLAAF.

Now this is a trap .:azn:
 
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Eurofighter Typhoon – Demon or Lemon? | idrw.org
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Typhoon-DD-RIAT-2009-JOW-1S.jpg

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Eurofighter Typhoon – Demon or Lemon
part - 1
The RAF’s new Eurofighter Typhoon has the
distinction of being the most controversial
European combat aircraft since the stillborn
TSR.2. Lauded by its proponents and trashed by
its opponents, the aircraft seems to have an
extraordinary ability to generate public argument.
What is all the more curious is that much of the
hostile coverage it has received is factually
wrong, but by the same token much of the pro-
Eurofighter argument we see is no less dubious.
What is the reality? Is the Eurofighter Typhoon an
exceptional combat aircraft, or is it an
anachronism unworthy of production?
In this month’s feature we will attempt to strip
away the emotive hype and take a closer look at
the strengths and weaknesses of this aircraft.
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The Eurofighter Typhoon – A Brief History :-
The genesis of the RAF Typhoon lay in the early
seventies AST.396 requirement for a STOVL light
ground attack fighter intended to replace the
Jaguar and Harrier. This requirement was
abandoned in favour of the AST.403 specification
for a multirole fighter with similar capabilities to
the emerging US F-16 and F/A-18. The STOVL
requirement soon disappeared since neither
Germany nor France saw any such need and
they were the most likely teaming partners for a
project too big for the UK industry to tackle alone.
The objective thus became the replacement of the
RAF Jaguar and Phantom FGR.2. With Germany
seeking a highly agile F/RF-4F/E replacement, and
France seeking a Jaguar replacement, AST.414
was created.
The European Combat Aircraft (ECA) study group
was formed, and by 1979 a joint BAe-MBB
proposal for the European Combat Fighter (ECF)
presented. With Dassault joining the BAe-MBB
consortium, a twin engine delta canard was
agreed as the preferred configuration. By 1981 the
ECF collapsed, since the French wanted a fighter
small enough to operate from their aircraft
carriers.
Concurrently the national manufacturers worked
on their own studies, BAe the P.110, MBB the
TKF-90 and Dassault the ACX (which became the
Rafale).
In April 1982 a new team was formed comprising
the former Panavia Tornado players, and the
extant design studies were merged into the Agile
Combat Aircraft (ACA). To prove the concepts
proposed in the ACA, the UK funded the
Experimental Aircraft Program (EAP), the other
two governments not coming to the party.
Supported by UK government funding and
industry funds from all three countries, the EAP
first flew in August, 1986. The EAP demonstrator
flew until 1991, logging 191.3 hours of total flight
time.
European air forces continued to show interest in
the idea of a common European design, and in
late 1983 a common European requirement for
the Future European Fighter Aircraft (FEFA soon
changed to EFA) was defined with the UK, France,
Germany, Italy and Spain participating. The EFA
was to be a highly agile twin engine, single seat
fighter with STOL capabilities. Its role was to be
BVR counter air combat, short range air
superiority over the battlefield, while a respectable
strike capability would be provided.
The influences of the period were quite evident.
The Soviets were fielding the Su-27S and MiG-29,
during what was to be their final surge in the Cold
War arms race. Europe’s BVR air defences and air
superiority hinged on the availability of USAF
F-15As based in Germany and Holland, while
most European air forces flew the agile but day-
VFR F-16A. Germany and Britain flew tired F-4s of
various vintages, and France the Mirage F.1 and
2000. The FEFA reflected these pressures, and
was clearly intended to provide a smaller and
cheaper European BVR capable substitute for the
then expensive F-15, in numbers competitive with
the F-16, with enough multirole capability to
support the dedicated strike assets in any NATO
vs Warpac contingency.
It was a European solution to a European
scenario. The nearest comparison to the teen
series would be an F/A-18 class multirole fighter
with the BVR capabilities and agility of an F-15.
The USAF replaced their Phantoms with the
longer ranging, agile BVR F-15, whereas the USN
replaced theirs with smaller and lighter F/A-18,
compromising top end BVR performance in
favour of numbers and strike capability. The RAF
and Luftwaffe, the leaders in the EFA, rolled the
equivalent of the USAF and USN Phantom
replacements into a single F/A-18 sized airframe.
The question an Australian observer might ask is
why not buy a mix of F-15s and F/A-18s off-the-
shelf? This would have been unthinkable to the
Europeans since they would lose the design
expertise and manufacturing base the Eurofighter
promised, as well as the massive investment by
then sunk into the program, the production base
built up for the Panavia Tornado, and concede the
future fighter market to the US.
By 1984 the extant divisions between the French
and the remaining players surfaced again, over
carrier compatibility. The French wanted a 19,000
lb aircraft (between the F-16 and F/A-18) and the
British a 24,255 lb aircraft (F/A-18 class empty
weight). A compromise 21,000 lb weight was
agreed upon. The French also sought design
leadership, 50% of total workshare, control of the
umbrella company and exports. A schism arose
between the French and the other players and the
EFA collapsed.
August 1985 saw the UK, Germany and Italy
decide to resurrect the program and Spain and
France were invited to join. Spain did, France
went solo with the Rafale. By June 1986 the
Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH company was
formed, and in September 1986, Eurojet Turbo
GmbH was formed to design and build the
engine. The ECR-90 radar was awarded to GEC
Ferranti in the UK.
The RAF EFA requirement was SRA.414, which
sought a lightweight twin turbofan BVR and close
combat fighter, with a secondary strike capability.
The RAF sought 250 aircraft, the Luftwaffe 250,
Italy 165 and Spain 100.
The EFA was in trouble again by 1992, under
threat from the “peace dividend” expectations of
European parliaments. Germany threatened to
pull out altogether, after initially chopping
numbers to 140, while Italy and Spain reduced
the size of their planned buys. After much political
bickering, the programme survived with revised
build numbers, but serious delays were incurred.
Reports suggest that the F-22 was proposed to
the UK, a historical fact which would explain the
peculiar fixation on comparing the EFA to the F-22
in much of the marketing literature. The
comparison is curious in the sense that the EFA is
conceptually an evolution in the teen series fighter
paradigm, whereas the F-22 combines sustained
supercruising engines and Very Low Observables
(stealth), thus representing a completely new
paradigm.
The first prototype Eurofighter 2000 DA.1 flew
from the DASA Manching facility in March 1994.
 
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part - 2
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The Eurofighter Typhoon – A Technical Summary :-
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The Typhoon employs a combined delta canard
configuration with a wing area similar to the F-15,
and similar internal fuel capacity, yet the aircraft
has an empty weight of around 24,250 lb, much
like a late model F/A-18C. The excellent empty
weight of the Typhoon in relation to the wing size
is as much a result of the compact configuration,
as it is of the generous use of carbon fibre
composites in the fuselage and wing of the
aircraft. Titanium canards and outer control
surfaces, and Aluminium Lithium alloy leading
edges were employed to minimise weight yet
achieve high structural strength.
The combined delta canard configuration and 538
ft2 wing size confer very low wing loading on
50% internal fuel, and are optimised for transonic
manoeuvre and supersonic dash performance.
The combination of sweep angle and unstable aft
CoG is clearly intended for minimising supersonic
drag, and is comparable to a classical supersonic
interceptor like the Mirage series, but is more
modest than the “supercruiser” 72° swept
inboard wing section of the F-16XL/E.
The Typhoon is unlikely to match the supersonic
high G envelope of F-16XL/E due to a lower wing
sweep angle, but will have a useful advantage
over most teen/teenski series types optimised for
transonic turning. In transonic manoeuvre, the
automatic full span leading edge slats are used to
adjust the wing camber and therefore reduce the
lift induced drag at high G characteristic of
classical deltas in this regime. Fuselage vortex
generators on either side of the cockpit are
employed to promote vortex formation at high
AoA and low speeds, and thus increase lift.
The paired inlet is optimised for high AoA
performance, using forebody flow to promote air
ingestion, as well as a boundary layer splitter
above the inlet. The combination of vortex lift and
inlet geometry used by the Typhoon exploits the
same ideas used in the F-16A/C/XL/E.
The loosely coupled canard is intended to provide
high control authority at high angles of attack, by
placing the surfaces ahead of the main vortices,
but also to provide lower trim drag in supersonic
flight.
In comparing the Typhoon to established
fighters, the aerodynamic design exploits basic
ideas used in F-16 family, but combines them
with a strongly swept delta and canard
configuration to extend the supersonic envelope,
although not as aggressively as GD did with the
660 ft2 cranked arrow F-16XL/E wing. The
simpler wing design in the Typhoon in turn
required canards to achieve the desired
supersonic drag and manoeuvre envelope.
From the perspective of airframe optimisations,
the Typhoon is without doubt optimised for its
two primary design objectives, which are
supersonic BVR interception and close in combat
at transonic speeds, with no obvious concessions
made to the secondary objective of strike. The
low wing loading will confer excellent climb
performance for the installed thrust, and the the
delta configuration lower supersonic drag, in
comparison with the F/A-18. The low wing
loading is not optimal for low level strike profiles,
but the gust sensitivity will be alleviated by the
large sweep angle and the use of artificial stability
and canards. The airframe is rated to +9/-3G at an
undisclosed combat weight, pylon G ratings have
also not been disclosed.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

The aircraft is powered by a pair of Eurojet EJ200
afterburning turbofans, rated at 13,500 lbf dry
and 20,000 lbf reheated at sea level, which is
comparable to growth variants of the F/A-18′s
GE F404. The 0.4:1 bypass ratio is characteristic of
modern fighter engines, and is optimised for
transonic performance rather than cruise burn.
Eurofighter claim the engine has a supercruise
capability, although the duration of possible
supercruise has not been disclosed. As the engine
is technologically of the same generation as
evolved teen series engines, expectations that it
can deliver the kind of supercruise performance
provided by uniquely designed supercruising
powerplants like the US F119 and F120 are difficult
to accept.
In an OCA/DCA combat configuration, clean, at
50% internal fuel (~6,500 lb), the Typhoon
delivers a nominal sea level dry thrust/weight
ratio of 0.82:1 and reheated thrust/weight ratio of
1.22:1 with a wing loading of 60.8 lb/ft2. Both are
in the class of the F-15A/C, F-16A/C, MiG-29 and
Su-27SK.
The aircraft uses a quadruply redundant digital
flight control system intended to provide carefree
handling, the latter an advancement over the teen
series, and in many respects a necessity given
the inherently pitch unstable aerodynamic
configuration.
An experienced F/A-18 pilot who flew the
Typhoon simulator commented to the author
that the aircraft’s manoeuvre/handling
performance did not appear to be a dramatic
improvement over the F/A-18, and rudder
authority at high AoA did not match the F/A-18. It
is however possible that further refinement of the
flight control software could have yielded
handling improvements since the mid nineties.
The overall impression resulting from a review of
the aircraft’s basic configuration, propulsion and
fuel package is of a fighter with F-15 class
transonic and supersonic agility at optimal
weight, instantaneous manoeuvre performance
slightly exceeding the teen series, all packaged
into an F/A-18 sized airframe with installed thrust
comparable to late build F/A-18 models. This
reflects very closely the initial EFA design
objectives.
The Typhoon’s avionic package is built essentially
upon the technology base used in the teen series
fighters, but employs a higher level of integration
against established in service teen series types.
The centrepiece of the avionic package is the X-
band (I/J-band) ECR-90 pulse-Doppler multimode
radar, similar in concept to the US Raytheon
APG-63/65/70 series and derived from the Blue
Vixen (Harrier FRS.2). Eurofighter are claiming
twice the output power of the F/A-18′s
APG-65/73 series (typical power output for this
class is 10 kW peak), and twice the detection
range of the F-16′s APG-68. However, in the
absence of published data on the ECR-90′s
mechanically steered planar array aperture size,
and peak power ratings, it is impossible to
robustly verify these assertions. The radar is
frequently credited with a detection range
advantage over the F-15′s APG-63/70 series, a
necessity for the intended use of ramjet BVR
missiles with an 80 NMI class A-pole range.
In terms of modes the ECR-90 incorporates the
typical package we are familiar with in the teen
series, or equivalents. Eurofighter emphasise the
rapid slew rate of the planar array.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

At this time an active phased array, the AMSAR, is
in development as an upgrade to the ECR-90 and
the Rafale’s RBE2 passive phased array. The
AMSAR/ECR-90 is technologically in the same
category as the APG-68 ABR (F-16C/B.60) and
APG-73 RUG III. It is expected to be available by
around 2005, and would provide like the ABR and
RUG III improved BVR performance, much lower
sidelobes, interleaved search and engagement
modes and the potential for interleaved terrain
following and ground attack modes. AMSAR
offers the potential for LPI operation, but would
require further design optimisations and a
fundamental redesign of many portions of the
ECR-90 back end.
The ECR-90 is supplemented by two passive
sensors. The Pilkington Optronics PIRATE mid-
wave IRS&T/FLIR can be used for detection,
identification and terrain avoidance, with eight
discrete operating modes. It is tightly integrated
with the radar’s functions and either can be
slaved to the other. In the absence of aperture
and detector size data it is impossible to estimate
the effective range under clear sky conditions.
An ESM is integrated into the Defensive Aids
SubSystem (DASS), and could be employed as a
passive targeting tool in engagements, in addition
to its basic function as a sensitive long range
RWR. The antenna packages are in the wingtip
pods.
The DASS package is comprehensive,
incorporating the ESM/RWR, a MAWS, a forward
sector Laser Warning Receiver (RAF),
expendables, DECM and an optical fibre towed
decoy. This is a competitive package by any
measure, against its US contemporaries.
The core avionic architecture is based upon the
federated model, using multiple Mil-Std-1553B
busses, making it comparable technologically to
late build teen series systems. Eurofighter claim
the use of sensor fusion techniques in the system
software, to combine the data produced by the
radar, IRS&T and ESM to provide a very high
confidence of early BVR target identification and
engagement. Given the significantly lower
available computing power in the Typhoon,
against the F-22A’s Cray class CIPs, assertions
that this capability is competitive against the
sensor fusion software in the F-22A are
somewhat peculiar, given that real time sensor
fusion is a computationally intensive task.
Eurofighter take much pride in the aircraft’s
cockpit, which incorporates a holographic HUD, 3
colour MFDs, HOTAS controls, and pilot voice
input for selecting system modes. Marconi are
developing a HMD, which is intended to provide
the pilot with visor projected binocular NVG
imagery, FLIR/IRS&T imagery and symbology.
On the available data the cockpit is state of the art,
and clearly very competitive against teen series
equivalents.
Primary navigation reference is provided by a
Litton LN-93EF RLG INS, supplemented by GPS
and TACAN. A GPWS (ground prox warning) and
Microwave Landing System (MLS) are
incorporated, the former to aid in low level
operations. The aircraft carries secure VHF and
UHF comm, an IFF interrogator and a MIDS/JTIS
terminal.
For BVR combat the Typhoon’s primary weapon
will be the Matra-BAe Meteor FMRAAM, a ramjet
powered AAM with a radar seeker evolved from
the Matra-BAe MICA. The proposal to use the
extended range AMRAAM derived ERAAM, or an
ramjet AMRAAM derivative, was rejected in
favour of a wholly European AAM. The interim
BVR weapon will be the US AIM-120B AMRAAM.
Most sources credit the FMRAAM with 80 NMI
engagement range against a closing target, about
20% better than the ERAAM. The FMRAAM is to
outrange the Russian Vympel R-77M ramjet
Adder derivative. Four BVR AAMs will be carried
in wing root semi-conformal wells.
For close-in combat the RAF Typhoon will be
armed with the AIM-132 ASRAAM, soon to be
deployed on the RAAF’s F/A-18A+ fleet. Non-RAF
Typhoons will carry a single Mauser 27 mm
cannon, the MoD having decided to delete the
gun from RAF aircraft. Weapon interfaces are
compatible with standard Sidewinder and
AMRAAM interfaces, it is likely the FMRAAM will
use the AMRAAM interface.
For strike operations, a range of weapons may be
carried. The primary RAF standoff weapon will be
the Matra-BAe Storm Shadow cruise missile,
derived from the French Apache, the Luftwaffe is
likely to stay with the Tornado’s KEPD-350.
Variants of the Paveway laser guided bomb may
be carried, with a TIALD FLIR/laser pod
occupying one forward AAM well. For close-in
tank busting, the millimetric wave Brimstone
(AGM-114F Hellfire derivative) will be used. We
can expect to see the Matra-BAe ALARM used for
SEAD by the RAF, the AGM-88 HARM by the
Luftwaffe. Mil-Std-1760 interfaces are provided as
with current build teen series fighters to facilitate
the integration of new weapons.
A wide range of options exist for external fuel
carriage. For supersonic OCA/DCA combat,
around 4,500 lb can be carried in upper wing
root Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) and around
1,800 lb each in a pair of drop tanks. For subsonic
strike sorties, 1,500 L or 2,000 L drop tanks may
be carried in addition to CFTs.
Eurofighter marketing literature makes much
mileage out of a claimed “stealth” capability,
acquired by the use of S-bend inlet tunnels and
selective application of radar absorbent materials.
The design spec is claimed to have included
bounds on RCS performance.
The assertion that the aircraft has a “stealth”
capability is curious by any measure, since there
is no evidence of planform alignment, panel edge
alignment, blending or faceting, all established
techniques used and proven on US types such as
the F-117A, B-2A, YF-23A, F-22A and the JSF
prototypes. Indeed the external carriage of stores
alone would make the Typhoon’s radar signature
at least 10-100 times greater than the golfball to
insect sized RCS we are accustomed to with US
types. Unless the Europeans have invented new
laws of radar scattering, the aircraft is at best a
conventional fighter with reduced forward sector
RCS, comparable to evolved F/A-18, F-16
variants, the Rafale or the B-1B.
The benefits of such limited RCS reduction are
marginal, since the detection range curve is fairly
steep in this region and modest increases in
opposing radar performance can largely offset
any gains in such RCS reduction. While every
dBSM down is useful, beyond 0.3 of a square
metre the payoff is questionable with external
stores being carried. Moreover, unless an LPI
radar is carried, the emissions of the radar will
betray the fighter to an opponent from well
outside radar range.
Published detection range performance for the
NIIP N-011M and Phazotron Zhuk-Ph (Su-30MK
upgrades) and Agat 9B-1103M/9B-1348E R-77/
R-77M seekers would suggest that a Typhoon
loaded with external stores could be successfully
engaged within the 50-65 NMI envelope. The
Meteor ramjet AAM is therefore vital to the
Typhoon, since the AMRAAM cannot fully exploit
the range advantage of the BVR weapon system.

---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------

At this time an active phased array, the AMSAR, is
in development as an upgrade to the ECR-90 and
the Rafale’s RBE2 passive phased array. The
AMSAR/ECR-90 is technologically in the same
category as the APG-68 ABR (F-16C/B.60) and
APG-73 RUG III. It is expected to be available by
around 2005, and would provide like the ABR and
RUG III improved BVR performance, much lower
sidelobes, interleaved search and engagement
modes and the potential for interleaved terrain
following and ground attack modes. AMSAR
offers the potential for LPI operation, but would
require further design optimisations and a
fundamental redesign of many portions of the
ECR-90 back end.
The ECR-90 is supplemented by two passive
sensors. The Pilkington Optronics PIRATE mid-
wave IRS&T/FLIR can be used for detection,
identification and terrain avoidance, with eight
discrete operating modes. It is tightly integrated
with the radar’s functions and either can be
slaved to the other. In the absence of aperture
and detector size data it is impossible to estimate
the effective range under clear sky conditions.
An ESM is integrated into the Defensive Aids
SubSystem (DASS), and could be employed as a
passive targeting tool in engagements, in addition
to its basic function as a sensitive long range
RWR. The antenna packages are in the wingtip
pods.
The DASS package is comprehensive,
incorporating the ESM/RWR, a MAWS, a forward
sector Laser Warning Receiver (RAF),
expendables, DECM and an optical fibre towed
decoy. This is a competitive package by any
measure, against its US contemporaries.
The core avionic architecture is based upon the
federated model, using multiple Mil-Std-1553B
busses, making it comparable technologically to
late build teen series systems. Eurofighter claim
the use of sensor fusion techniques in the system
software, to combine the data produced by the
radar, IRS&T and ESM to provide a very high
confidence of early BVR target identification and
engagement. Given the significantly lower
available computing power in the Typhoon,
against the F-22A’s Cray class CIPs, assertions
that this capability is competitive against the
sensor fusion software in the F-22A are
somewhat peculiar, given that real time sensor
fusion is a computationally intensive task.
Eurofighter take much pride in the aircraft’s
cockpit, which incorporates a holographic HUD, 3
colour MFDs, HOTAS controls, and pilot voice
input for selecting system modes. Marconi are
developing a HMD, which is intended to provide
the pilot with visor projected binocular NVG
imagery, FLIR/IRS&T imagery and symbology.
On the available data the cockpit is state of the art,
and clearly very competitive against teen series
equivalents.
Primary navigation reference is provided by a
Litton LN-93EF RLG INS, supplemented by GPS
and TACAN. A GPWS (ground prox warning) and
Microwave Landing System (MLS) are
incorporated, the former to aid in low level
operations. The aircraft carries secure VHF and
UHF comm, an IFF interrogator and a MIDS/JTIS
terminal.
For BVR combat the Typhoon’s primary weapon
will be the Matra-BAe Meteor FMRAAM, a ramjet
powered AAM with a radar seeker evolved from
the Matra-BAe MICA. The proposal to use the
extended range AMRAAM derived ERAAM, or an
ramjet AMRAAM derivative, was rejected in
favour of a wholly European AAM. The interim
BVR weapon will be the US AIM-120B AMRAAM.
Most sources credit the FMRAAM with 80 NMI
engagement range against a closing target, about
20% better than the ERAAM. The FMRAAM is to
outrange the Russian Vympel R-77M ramjet
Adder derivative. Four BVR AAMs will be carried
in wing root semi-conformal wells.
For close-in combat the RAF Typhoon will be
armed with the AIM-132 ASRAAM, soon to be
deployed on the RAAF’s F/A-18A+ fleet. Non-RAF
Typhoons will carry a single Mauser 27 mm
cannon, the MoD having decided to delete the
gun from RAF aircraft. Weapon interfaces are
compatible with standard Sidewinder and
AMRAAM interfaces, it is likely the FMRAAM will
use the AMRAAM interface.
For strike operations, a range of weapons may be
carried. The primary RAF standoff weapon will be
the Matra-BAe Storm Shadow cruise missile,
derived from the French Apache, the Luftwaffe is
likely to stay with the Tornado’s KEPD-350.
Variants of the Paveway laser guided bomb may
be carried, with a TIALD FLIR/laser pod
occupying one forward AAM well. For close-in
tank busting, the millimetric wave Brimstone
(AGM-114F Hellfire derivative) will be used. We
can expect to see the Matra-BAe ALARM used for
SEAD by the RAF, the AGM-88 HARM by the
Luftwaffe. Mil-Std-1760 interfaces are provided as
with current build teen series fighters to facilitate
the integration of new weapons.
A wide range of options exist for external fuel
carriage. For supersonic OCA/DCA combat,
around 4,500 lb can be carried in upper wing
root Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) and around
1,800 lb each in a pair of drop tanks. For subsonic
strike sorties, 1,500 L or 2,000 L drop tanks may
be carried in addition to CFTs.
Eurofighter marketing literature makes much
mileage out of a claimed “stealth” capability,
acquired by the use of S-bend inlet tunnels and
selective application of radar absorbent materials.
The design spec is claimed to have included
bounds on RCS performance.
The assertion that the aircraft has a “stealth”
capability is curious by any measure, since there
is no evidence of planform alignment, panel edge
alignment, blending or faceting, all established
techniques used and proven on US types such as
the F-117A, B-2A, YF-23A, F-22A and the JSF
prototypes. Indeed the external carriage of stores
alone would make the Typhoon’s radar signature
at least 10-100 times greater than the golfball to
insect sized RCS we are accustomed to with US
types. Unless the Europeans have invented new
laws of radar scattering, the aircraft is at best a
conventional fighter with reduced forward sector
RCS, comparable to evolved F/A-18, F-16
variants, the Rafale or the B-1B.
The benefits of such limited RCS reduction are
marginal, since the detection range curve is fairly
steep in this region and modest increases in
opposing radar performance can largely offset
any gains in such RCS reduction. While every
dBSM down is useful, beyond 0.3 of a square
metre the payoff is questionable with external
stores being carried. Moreover, unless an LPI
radar is carried, the emissions of the radar will
betray the fighter to an opponent from well
outside radar range.
Published detection range performance for the
NIIP N-011M and Phazotron Zhuk-Ph (Su-30MK
upgrades) and Agat 9B-1103M/9B-1348E R-77/
R-77M seekers would suggest that a Typhoon
loaded with external stores could be successfully
engaged within the 50-65 NMI envelope. The
Meteor ramjet AAM is therefore vital to the
Typhoon, since the AMRAAM cannot fully exploit
the range advantage of the BVR weapon system.
 
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Typhoon-3SQN-RAF-2008-1S.jpg

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part :- 3
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Is the Typhoon a Demon or a Lemon? :-
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Given the vigorous marketing effort of the
Eurofighter consortium both in Europe and
Australia, and the often extremely hostile
coverage the aircraft has received in the
international press, and moreso UK press, it is
worth exploring the aircraft’s strengths and
weaknesses against some established baselines.
The aircraft’s counter air performance is cited as
its major strength, and it is frequently cited to
be “82% as effective as an F-22”.
The magic 82% number is derived from a mid
nineties DERA simulation against a postulated
Su-35 threat. The number is based upon the
rather unusual metric of “probability of successful
engagement” in BVR combat, rating the F-22 at
91%, the Typhoon at 82%, the F-15F (single seat
E) at 60%, the Rafale at 50% and the F-15C at
43%.
The probability of a successful engagement can
be translated into the more commonly used
metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable
statistical assumptions, and doing this yields
about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon,
1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and
0.75:1 for the F-15C. So in the most common
terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA
simulation about half as combat effective as the
F-22A, about three times as combat effective as
the F-15F, about five times as effective as the
Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C. If we
compare this with cited USAF claims rating the
F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the
F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the
DERA study roughly agrees with USAF
assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat
effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to
this study have not been disclosed.
The validity of this study in today’s environment
must be questioned. Since its compilation the
Russians have developed the NIIP-011M and
Phazotron Zhuk-Ph phased arrays for the
Su-27/30, the R-77M ramjet Adder, the extended
range R-74 digital Archer, 2D and 3D thrust
vectoring nozzles, higher thrust AL-31 engine
derivatives, and active radar seekers for the R-27
Alamo, as well as fielding an anti-radiation variant
of the Alamo. The F-22A is likely to be shooting
the ERAAM, and some USAF F-15Cs are being
fitted with active phased arrays, with the likely
prospect of getting ERAAMs as well, or even a
ramjet AMRAAM variant. Therefore it is likely that
most of the supporting assumptions used in the
study are very stale, if not irrelevant. Until
Typhoons are equipped with the AMSAR and
Meteor, the projected 4.6:1 BVR kill ratio is by any
measure optimistic, against an evolved Su-30
variant.
Clearly the Typhoon is robustly in the BVR
lethality class of the F-15C/E, and the principal
driver of relative effectiveness between these
types will the radar and missile capabilities. Until
the USAF field phased arrays and ERAAM or
ramjet AAMs on the whole F-15 fleet (some
aircraft are currently being retrofitted with
APG-63(V)3 active phased arrays), the Typhoon
will hold a decisive advantage. US longwave
IRS&T technology is available off-the-shelf and
would much reduce any advantage conferred by
the PIRATE to the Typhoon.

---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

The other important considerations in BVR
combat are transonic and supersonic
acceleration, persistence and sustained turn
performance. While the latter are difficult to
estimate, the former can be directly compared by
looking at thrust/weight ratios.
The clean Typhoon, with 50% internal gas and
6-8 AAMs is firmly in the class of the F100-
PW-229 powered F-15F, on dry thrust, and about
15% behind the F-15F on reheat. Where the
Typhoon falls behind the F-15F is when its
operating radius is stretched and additional
external gas is being carried. If we take a
Typhoon with 3 x 1000L external tanks, and an
F-15F with 2 x 600 USG external tanks, we have
configurations which deliver very similar
endurance and operating radius for a point
intercept. In the latter situation, approaching the
target, the Typhoon is around 12% behind the
F-15F in critical reheated thrust/weight ratio. If we
compare a Typhoon with CFTs, 3 x 1000L
external tanks against an F-15F with only CFTs,
we get a shortfall of about 20% in thrust/weight
ratio in addition to the drag penalty of the external
tanks. These are very approximate estimates, not
accounting for combat gas, but even doing a
very accurate simulation would yield the
inevitable conclusion – an F/A-18 sized fighter, no
matter how agile when clean, cannot compete in
thrust/weight ratio with an F-15 sized fighter at
extended operating radii.
The argument that the smaller fighter can fly out
in a less encumbered configuration, and rely
upon a tanker, disregards the need for enough
internal gas to safely if an AAR fails over water.
By the same token, the use of higher thrust
growth EJ200 engines in the Typhoon alleviates
the problem, but it would still remain behind an
F-15F fitted with the growth 32 klb F100-PW-232
or its GE equivalent F110 variant.
Clearly in any scenario where unrefuelled
operating radius is not a major issue, the
Typhoon is a highly competitive conventional
fighter, and exceeds the capabilities of an F-15
variant without a phased array and extended
range AAMs. However, a new build F-15 with
current technology engines, and AESA/ramjet
AAM package will maintain a healthy performance
margin even over a growth variant of the
Typhoon, and an operating radius advantage.
The relative effectiveness would then boil down
to issues such as tactics, and any relative
advantages of the specific AAMs carried and
radars fitted.
The comparative advantages of the Typhoon
over the Su-27/30 family exhibit similar
sensitivities to technology upgrades in the Sukhoi
fighters. Fitted with a phased array, longwave
IRS&T, carrying ramjet R-77M missiles,
supported by SuAWACS, and using growth
engines we must seriously question how great a
lethality margin the Typhoon would hold against
such a fighter. The Sukhoi, inevitably, exhibits the
same thrust/weight ratio advantages the F-15
does in extended range combat, which was a
design objective for this type as it was for the
F-15.
In comparing the Typhoon against the only other
fighter in its weight class, the F/A-18A/C, the
benefits of using later generation technology
show very clearly. The Typhoon outperforms the
F/A-18A/C in BVR weapon system capability as
well as aerodynamic performance. While much
better than the F/A-18A/C in operating radius and
agility, its optimal operating radius is not in the
class of the F-15 and Su-27/30.

---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

conclusion.
.
.

What conclusions can we draw about the
Typhoon? The notion that the aircraft is “almost
as good as an F-22” is not supportable, indeed
upgrading the F-15 with engines and a radar/
IRS&T/AAM package of the same generation as
that of the Typhoon would equalise almost all
advantages held by the Typhoon over older
F-15C/E variants. By the same token, no upgrades
performed on the F/A-18A/C would equalise the
performance advantages of the Typhoon over
these aircraft.
The strength of the Typhoon is its very modern
and comprehensive avionic package, especially
that in the RAF variant, and its excellent agility
when operated around its optimum combat
radius of about 300 NMI (a figure to be found in
older Eurofighter literature, which has since
disappeared with the export drive to compete
against the bigger F-15 and F-22).
The Typhoon’s weaknesses are its F/A-18C class
weight and thrust and the implications of this in
combat at extended operational radii, and the
longer term sensitivity of its BVR weapons
advantage to equivalent technological
developments in opposing fighters.
In terms of where to position the Typhoon in the
current menagerie of fighter aircraft, it can be best
described as an F/A-18C sized fighter with BVR
systems and agility performance better than older
F-15 models, similar to growth F-15 models with
same generation systems and engines, but
inferior to the F-15 in useful operating radius. The
Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, despite various
assertions to this effect, nor is it a genuine
supercruiser like the F-22. Its design incorporates
none of the features seen in very low observable
types, nor does the EJ200 incorporate the unique
design features of the F119 and F120 powerplants.
The Typhoon is certainly not a lemon, although
the wisdom of mass producing a high
performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a
period where stealth is about to hit mass
production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be
seriously questioned. It represents what is likely
to be the last major evolutionary step in the teen
series design philosophy.
 
.
As such we have yet to see the MKI's abilities demonstrated or displayed when it comes to its air to ground capabilities.
Dumb bombs are fine..and the Brahmos will be an excellent standoff asset.
But where it comes to the array of missions I laid out previously.. the MKI cannot compete with the Rafale or even the EF in variety.

I'm sorry Santro, but I think you highly underestimate even the current capabilities of the MKI here and to make it not too OT we could do a comparison with the MMRCAs:

CAS:

Rafale - Yes - 250Kg Paveway LGBs or AASM PGMs (most likely 125 Kg AASM or Brimstone missile in future)
EF - Yes - 500Kg Paveway LGB (250 Kg Paveway under integration, possibly Brimstone missile in future)
MKI - Yes - 500Kg KAB 500 Kr TV guided bombs and Kh 29 laser guided missiles (KAB 250 bombs and Sudharshan LGBs possible in future)

miltavbig%20%28104%29.jpg



SEAD:

Rafale - Yes - AASM PGM guided by SPECTRA or Damocles pod
EF - No -
MKI - Yes - Kh 31 missiles

mkiarmed4rk.jpg


(right wing, inner hardpoint. Other pics from BR available on the net)


Heavy strike

Rafale - (Yes) - 1000Kg Paveway LGB was said to be integrated by the end of last year, can't confirm it yet (AASM 1000 in future)
EF - (no) - 1000Kg Paveway LGB was tested, but not integrated yet and only possible if another fighter provides laser guidance
MKI - Yes - 1500Kg KAB Kr

(pics and IAF official specboards available on BR)


Curise / Stand off missile strike:

Rafale - yes - AASM up to 60Km and Scalp up to 300Km
EF - no - (neither Storm Shadow, Taurus nor HOSBO were integrated and CFTs are necessary to have enough range)
MKI - Yes - Kh 59 up to 115Km (not sure if Kh 59MK2s are available in IAF, with higher range, but in future also Brahmos and Nirbhay)

(pics and IAF official specboards available on BR)


Maritime attack:

Rafale - yes - Exocet
EF - no - (RBS 15 is on offer for India, but no partner or customer wants to integrate it)
MKI - (Yes) - (Technically Kh 35 is possible, not sure if IAF has it already, but the upgraded Mig 29s will bring them for sure, since they are integrating them, Brahmos of course in future)


Tanker role:

Rafale - Yes - Shown with Rafale Ms on board of the CdG carrier
EF - no - (technically possible, but not on offer for EF)
MKI - Yes - already available in IAF service

su30mkiupazmirage2000th.jpg



Reconnaissance:

Rafale - Yes - with Reco NG pod
EF - No - (since it is using the Litening pod, it might use the RecceLite pod in future but no bigger recon pod)
MKI - Yes - most likely the IAI ELM-2060 pod, but it's already in service and replaced Mig 25s in that role

3635340264_70322eec62_b.jpg



As you can see, the MKI is already a true multi role fighter and the coming upgrade will make it even more capable, only Rafale offering similar capabilities and would provide IAF with alternative weapons and techs as a 2nd frontline fighter. EF will be outclassed by both of them and needs important upgrades to be even comparable.
 
.
let see what india choose. but i am one of the few who question what was the real need of MRCA in first place when india had an MKI with it range of capablities. What we see in large air forces is a high low mix capablity. india already had MKI in high catergery (and soon to be inducted the PAKFA) . it could have filled the LCA as in low catergery( a number 200-300). The MRCA virtually was death sign for any hopes for LCA to become the work horse of IAF in additon to being billion of dollars investment.
only reason what i can see is the IAF didnt liked the LCA even though to me LCA is a very good aircraft.
 
. .
let see what india choose. but i am one of the few who question what was the real need of MRCA in first place when india had an MKI with it range of capablities. What we see in large air forces is a high low mix capablity. india already had MKI in high catergery (and soon to be inducted the PAKFA) . it could have filled the LCA as in low catergery( a number 200-300). The MRCA virtually was death sign for any hopes for LCA to become the work horse of IAF in additon to being billion of dollars investment.
only reason what i can see is the IAF didnt liked the LCA even though to me LCA is a very good aircraft.

I can't quite make up my mind whether to agree or disagree with your point. I'm strongly ambivalent, to quote steven colbert.

If you look at other air forces which operate huge numbers of aircrafts like the IAF does (in fact a lot more than the IAF), what they call Hi-Lo is actually Hi-Medium as IAF would call it. The latest blocks of F-16s that the USAf operates are very much in the medium category - the block 70IN actually participated in the M-MRCA competition. In future they intend to operate only F-22s and F-35s, and the F-35 is also medium category as IAF would call it.

The Russian air force operates mostly flankers (heavy) and mig-29s (medium) in the fighter category, other than assorted twin engine migs in smaller numbers. They don't operate any single engined or light aircrafts as far as I know.

The chinese air force of the future is also going to comprise of only heavy and medium fighters, from what I foresee. They do not plan to induct JF-17 or any light fighters.

However India cannot afford to have 39-42 squadrons of heavy and medium fighters, and needs light fighters to make up numbers. Hence the need for 3 categories.

However, part of me does warm to the idea of several hundreds of LCAs supplanting the MKIs until the PAKFA arrives. However, that is only due to my desire to see the indigenous LCA playing a big role. Another factor is the seemingly huge cost of the deal.
 
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I think need of MMRCA has changed from just adding up numbers to providing the Indian defence sector with much needed technology and investments[ToT and offsets] and ofcourse a great plane. India started on the course of Inidegenous weapons later than any advanced country and doesn't have much to show for a MIC.
And that what it so important IMO
 
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Santro and Sancho, You guys made my day! Great Discussion...

I wish Rafale is selected by end of Jan-12 with no further delays.
 
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select any one

either euro or rafale and induct them ASAP

we have to increase our numbers and both planes are good , we have to induct them ASAP
 
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