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What I meant Sancho was not that the MKI has these capabilities, or rather is in the process of acquiring them.
But if it can match the Rafale's "Jack of all trades" ability and weapons capability.
Current IAF firepower demonstrations still seem to focus on the MKI's basic A2G ability.
How much of the Kh series have been operationally tested is in question.
Perhaps taking the existence and possible compatibility of french equipment on the MKI there may be options for even more commonality.(btw the rafale has dropped the heavier paveways.. but the target lase was from a etendard).
It is surprising then as to why the EF is being rumored as the winner.. but then again, I did stress that the decision would eventually have a political and diplomatic element in it.
 
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What I meant Sancho was not that the MKI has these capabilities, or rather is in the process of acquiring them.
But if it can match the Rafale's "Jack of all trades" ability and weapons capability.
Current IAF firepower demonstrations still seem to focus on the MKI's basic A2G ability.
How much of the Kh series have been operationally tested is in question.
Perhaps taking the existence and possible compatibility of french equipment on the MKI there may be options for even more commonality.(btw the rafale has dropped the heavier paveways.. but the target lase was from a etendard).
It is surprising then as to why the EF is being rumored as the winner.. but then again, I did stress that the decision would eventually have a political and diplomatic element in it.

why would india choose the EF for those reasons and not the rafale ?
 
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why would india choose the EF for those reasons and not the rafale ?

EF partner nations(and by that I mean those that will profit from the sale):
46%: EADS
33% EADS Deutschland GmbH (Germany)
13% EADS CASA (Spain)
33%: BAE Systems (United Kingdom)
21%: Alenia Aeronautica (Italy)

Thats just the airframe.

Weapons:
EADS (37.5%)
BAE Systems (37.5%)
Finmeccanica (25%) Italy
Raytheon -United states

Rafale partner nations:
France-- most major contributor to airframe.. most to gain.

Weapons:
MBDA
Raytheon


So the clear diplomatic and economic winner is the Typhoon. The french already have contracts awarded to them by the Indian military such as the M2K upgrade and the Scorpenes.
So while losing the MMRCA may hurt Dassault a lot... India may "alleviate" the worries of the french gov by offering other contracts from its large scale modernization programs.
 
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let see what india choose. but i am one of the few who question what was the real need of MRCA in first place when india had an MKI with it range of capablities. What we see in large air forces is a high low mix capablity. india already had MKI in high catergery (and soon to be inducted the PAKFA) . it could have filled the LCA as in low catergery( a number 200-300). The MRCA virtually was death sign for any hopes for LCA to become the work horse of IAF in additon to being billion of dollars investment.
only reason what i can see is the IAF didnt liked the LCA even though to me LCA is a very good aircraft.

Don't see MMRCA as a simple fighter procurement! LCA development was delayed, that's why IAF wanted a foreign fighter as a stop gap and strated the MRCA competition. Back then, the focus was on a fast procurement and induction, which is why IAF prefered the Mirage 2000-5, but MoD/GoI understood that that this is a chance to not only get a new fighter, but high side benefits, be it to improve the indigenous industry, political or economical advantages. That's why they, scrapped the initial competition and started the M-MRCA inculding more US and European contenders (to more competition, the more benefits for India)!
When you look at the procurement only from IAF point of view, the addition of Mirage 2000s would have been the perfect decision, single engine, cost-effective, good multi role capabilities, proven in IAF, fits between LCA MK1 and MKI and we would a good hi / lo mix of the fleet. With MMRCA it gets bigger and closer to MKI capabilities of course, but that is not an aim of the procurement, just a side note.
Rafale and EF are the most expensive fighters in the competition, but were always those contenders, that offered the most side benefits. Since the MMRCA rules requires high ToT and offsets in return, the expenses India has, will be returned to a high degree into JV or co-developments again, which then not only creats new jobs, but also improves Indian industry.


So the clear diplomatic and economic winner is the Typhoon.

I agree on economic terms, not on diplomatic though. Of the 4 EF partners, Spain and Italy have no important diplomatic at all, so can't be interesting for India. Germany is only strong within the EU, internationally, they are even behind India, like the election for the UNC showed and India is much closer to be a permanent member as well.
Which basically leaves the UK as a veto power, but France is a veto power as well and currently the strongest European nation when it comes to military. I am still impressed about their leadership and political influence during the Libyan conflict, because they did not only took the lead in the attacks, but influenced even the US and UK, which normally don't have the best relations to France and even Arabic countries like the UAE and Qatar to participate. None of the EF partners would have been able to do this and I didn't expected the French to still have so much influence and that's why I see them as a stronger diplomatic partner for India, next to Russia, Israel and even the US today.
 
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What I meant Sancho was not that the MKI has these capabilities, or rather is in the process of acquiring them.
But if it can match the Rafale's "Jack of all trades" ability and weapons capability.
Current IAF firepower demonstrations still seem to focus on the MKI's basic A2G ability.
How much of the Kh series have been operationally tested is in question.

IAF has tested the Kh 29 and 31 (more pics available on BR, but I didn't wanted to post them even via imageshack or so, unless it's ok for you), but I can't tell you how often they tested them, especially on firepower demonstrations like Vayu Shakti or so. These weapons are integrated by Russia into the Flanker series anyway, so there is no technical integration needed from IAF side, only training and there are pics of training rounds of Kh 59 as well.


It is surprising then as to why the EF is being rumored as the winner.. but then again, I did stress that the decision would eventually have a political and diplomatic element in it.

From technical point of view I can't understand it either and since I am for the best fighter for Indian forces, I would be against it, but as mentioned, MMRCA has more than just the requirements of IAF to fulfill and depending on which requirements are more important, the EF might have chances to win as well.
 
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mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA.
had i have been IAF chief i would have spent t5 billion in intergating western technology with TOT in LCA and procured nearly 200 fighters and rest of the money i would have spent in AMCA so as to ensure it gets ready for induction around 2025 when IAF would be atleast thinking of retiring mig29 and other related aircrafts..

what i am saying that whenever is see the history of any air force it seems different, most countries strife to get their own aircrft or do a joint venture..india instead went for a mega deal of 20 billion..doesnt make sense when India is not in dire need of such aircrft in presence of MKI,LCA and PAKFA
 
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mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA.
had i have been IAF chief i would have spent t5 billion in intergating western technology with TOT in LCA and procured nearly 200 fighters and rest of the money i would have spent in AMCA so as to ensure it gets ready for induction around 2025 when IAF would be atleast thinking of retiring mig29 and other related aircrafts..

what i am saying that whenever is see the history of any air force it seems different, most countries strife to get their own aircrft or do a joint venture..india instead went for a mega deal of 20 billion..doesnt make sense when India is not in dire need of such aircrft in presence of MKI,LCA and PAKFA


What about the access to western weapons like Meteor etc? and commercial offsets to aid our domestic industry.


the winner of the MMRCA tender will invest over $ 5 billion as offsets into the Indian defence sector.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------

We need a fighter with a lower RCS compared to our Sukhois also.
Mig 27's/Jaguars/Mirages/Mig 29's all have to be replaced sooner or later
 
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mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA.
had i have been IAF chief i would have spent t5 billion in intergating western technology with TOT in LCA and procured nearly 200 fighters and rest of the money i would have spent in AMCA so as to ensure it gets ready for induction around 2025 when IAF would be atleast thinking of retiring mig29 and other related aircrafts.

Most of the important ToT is related to the manufacturing process. That can't be "bought" for the LCA. This will hopefully give India a quantum leap in its aerospace manufacturing sector, and experience in western production methods.

200 LCA and 300 MKIs would still leave a shortfall of about 300 aircrafts until the PAKFA and AMCA arrive. The AMCA is not arriving for another 15 years. Also, MKIs would be the only aircraft with long range capabilities. One technical snag can ground the entire fleet, it is not a good idea to have all your expeditionary capability fulfilled by one kind. Also, the MRCAs are immensely cheaper to operate than the MKIs, and require far less maintainance. Since we are talking about 25-30 years of service, that would in itself be a huge cost saving factor - which is of course the rationale for having medium category aircrafts in addition to heavy ones.
 
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defence.professionals | defpro.com

Eurojet may transfer single crystal blade technology to India

We need to get as much tech transfer as we can from this deal but I feel the Europeans will get more despo as time passes.
 
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I agree on economic terms, not on diplomatic though. Of the 4 EF partners, Spain and Italy have no important diplomatic at all, so can't be interesting for India. Germany is only strong within the EU, internationally, they are even behind India, like the election for the UNC showed and India is much closer to be a permanent member as well.
Which basically leaves the UK as a veto power, but France is a veto power as well and currently the strongest European nation when it comes to military. I am still impressed about their leadership and political influence during the Libyan conflict, because they did not only took the lead in the attacks, but influenced even the US and UK, which normally don't have the best relations to France and even Arabic countries like the UAE and Qatar to participate. None of the EF partners would have been able to do this and I didn't expected the French to still have so much influence and that's why I see them as a stronger diplomatic partner for India, next to Russia, Israel and even the US today.

IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.

Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply.

Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.

And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.

I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

I agree on economic terms, not on diplomatic though. Of the 4 EF partners, Spain and Italy have no important diplomatic at all, so can't be interesting for India. Germany is only strong within the EU, internationally, they are even behind India, like the election for the UNC showed and India is much closer to be a permanent member as well.
Which basically leaves the UK as a veto power, but France is a veto power as well and currently the strongest European nation when it comes to military. I am still impressed about their leadership and political influence during the Libyan conflict, because they did not only took the lead in the attacks, but influenced even the US and UK, which normally don't have the best relations to France and even Arabic countries like the UAE and Qatar to participate. None of the EF partners would have been able to do this and I didn't expected the French to still have so much influence and that's why I see them as a stronger diplomatic partner for India, next to Russia, Israel and even the US today.

IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.

Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply.

Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.

And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.

I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.
 
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IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.

Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply.

Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.

And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.

I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------



IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.

Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply.

Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.

And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.

I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.



How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS
 
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the Typhoon is considered the perfect "desert eagle". The aircraft already demonstrates its full capabilities in the arid, hot and humid climate of the Gulf region. Thanks to its exceptional thrust-to-weight ratio, the Typhoon suffers less than other fighters in the difficult environmental conditions and is able to exploit at full its payload capability and range performances.

The most advanced Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) which forms a key component of the Eurofighter Typhoon weapon system, improving tactical performance for Eurofighter pilots by providing essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery.
 
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How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS


when you put a missile under the wing.. there is no concept called lower RCS... it will blink in enemy's radar at least 70 miles far apart.. dont bring the concept of lower RCS when it is < 5th gen... it is absolutely bullshit..

Rafale is trust worthy.. it is sanction proof.. is it not a better product?
 
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How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS
No one is saying no to EF having some sort of edge in performance,but it doesn't really a good package for A2G. It definitely has A2G capabilities or the MOD wouldn't have selected it.
And don't forget that we also have MKI for Air Dominance/Superiority role, and then there will also be PAK-FA and later AMCA.
Also not to forget- 'SPECTRA'. If it is as good as is rumoured to be- i.e if it has active cancellation capability,
it could be invaluable for us.
 
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the Typhoon is considered the perfect "desert eagle". The aircraft already demonstrates its full capabilities in the arid, hot and humid climate of the Gulf region. Thanks to its exceptional thrust-to-weight ratio, the Typhoon suffers less than other fighters in the difficult environmental conditions and is able to exploit at full its payload capability and range performances.

The most advanced Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) which forms a key component of the Eurofighter Typhoon weapon system, improving tactical performance for Eurofighter pilots by providing essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery.

Rafale is seriously considered by UAE.. so what do you say about this?.. EFT is not sanction proof.. it will not fly when we test Nukes dude ... but Rafale will fly... Mirages are the perfect example.. they won the war for us
 
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