Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[golmaal]

BTW its not world biggest fighter deal but saudi 60bn$ deal of f-15 sielent eagle deal


Us Prepares To Approve $60bn Arms Deal With Saudi Arabia


Its Not Imran Bhai..
I think they are going for 84 F-15 fighters!

 

[Safriz]

OMG!!! I jus love this bird....... how can anyone not????? rafale rafale rafale.... we want rafale!!!!!!!!
Btw spark din't know you flew planes under the guise of michael lol

how about a rafael tatoo on your arm?

 

[Thundersword]

Look at the eyes of the pilot, the is G really killing him.

And is that Topsight E ?? looks ugly.

nope.... this doesn't look like topsight E :

@ safriz I would just love it!!!! know anyone who tattoos Rafale in India ????? if yes pls temme
Ohh and for the last time it's RAFALE!!!!! meaning Squall in french .... rafael is israeli.... but I bet you already knew.....

 

[DrSomnath999]

Then I think that we should keep on waiting and buy these

yes star war plane with starwar helmet

well we can wage war not only with our neighbours but also aliens

 

[golmaal]

Yea.. and the Indian spaceship name would be PANCHAGNI (Five Fires)..

 

[INDIAN SOLDIER]

Indian Air Force combat aircraft deal winner to be finalised in six weeks

NEW DELHI: The multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) entered its last phase on Friday with Defence Ministry opening commercial bids of the two European contenders to determine the lowest bidder, a process that is expected to take six to eight weeks.

"The Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) of the Defence Ministry opened the commercial bids and read out the offers made by the Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale in the presence of their representatives. Now the Ministry will evaluate and examine their proposals to arrive at the lowest bidder (L1)," a Defence Ministry spokesperson said here.

The two contenders now know each other's quote for the bid but it will take another six to eight weeks for deciding on the ultimate winner of the bid, Ministry sources said here.

 

[sancho]

@Sancho the Brazilian airforce wanted the Gripen not the Rafale it was their 1st choice but due to pressure + the the deal struck with France for help on their N sub they were compelled to go for Rafale. At the moment that tender is still up in the air and the F18 is back in the race the last I heard.

That's not correct, some parts of the air forces which are related to Embraer stated their preference to Gripen, but it was never the first choice in Brazil. The Brazilian airforce chief even prefered the F18SH, while as I said the government always prefered the Rafale for obvious reasons, because just like in India, their competition was re-issued to increase the benefits for the indigenous industry and that's why the Rafale is the best choice for them. France offers the best ToT and offset package in their deal and clearly the best fighter as well, but with the current problems of Brazilian economic and the reduction of the defence budget, it's difficult for them to buy it, since it is the most expensive fighter in their competition.

Like i said before nobody wants the Rafale when you can have the EF it is 2nd best and always will be end of matter.

Which is a funny statement, since EF was rejected in Brazil, while Rafale was shortlisted to the final stage and the same happend in the past in Singapore, or S. Korea...and the Rafale proved in Libya how much more capable it is compared to the EF. Both fighters has similar potential, but only the French are constantly uprading their fighter to get it that far and when you look at the current status of the EF partners, the future of Rafale is also much brighter than EFs, be it for exports or to get to its full potential, just as Spark explained to you.

Also the Swiss can't even afford the rafale how they going to pay for EF? they cancelled the whole tender process and will start for new budget year

You obviously don't follow the news, the Rafale came out the Swiss evaluation as number 1, EF only 2nd and one reason for it was, that the Rafale is cheaper and Swiss could afford the 22 fighters they wanted, while the EF is too expensive and they could only buy a max of 18 EFs. Besides that the operational costs of Rafale are also cheaper:

Combat Aircraft: manufacturers under pressure!

...The Gripen is the less expensive plane with an offer around 3 billion, while the Eurofighter is around 4 billion. The Rafale is between the two.

The situation of three competitors:

The French aircraft is undoubtedly the favorite with a price that is perfectly in the line with the imposed budget. Having passed the most tests with 95% success, the Rafale is also available with an industrial partnership that affects the entire plane itself but also the range of business jets "Falcon", the engine manufacturer SNECMA / CFM International and all related equipment...

Avions de combat : constructeurs sous pression ! : avia news


There are only 2 reasons that makes the EF important in MMRCA:

1) the industral and political benefits, since the EF consortium and the partners are more desperate at the moment than the French.

2) to put pressure on the French to lower the costs, or provide us with more advantages.


The capabilities of the EF as a fighter on the other side are only secondary, because it is clearly less capable then Rafale today and would need a lot of money and time from us to be useful. If we have both and they are so desperate to offer us a deal that we can't deny, we take the EF. Otherwise it will only be used to get point 2.

 

[sancho]

Are you for a minute saying the Euro fighters promoters are more broke than France ?

Apart of Germany, yes they are more broke, but even Germany is cutting their defence budget and cancelling, or at least trying to sell their last order of 37 EFs to us. The situation in UK is even worse, they will cut the T3B order and want to sell most of the T1s, because they are too expensive to upgrade and operate. Italy already cancelled the T3B and Spain will just follow. UK and ITA will buy F35 instead, Germany reduced their fleet and already starts new developments in the UAV sector, Spain will probably reduce the order and might opt for some F35Bs for their carriers and to replace the F18 Hornets later.

India will be a development partner if it chooses the Euro fighter

No, we will only be a production partner, because there is hardly anything left to develop, or to participate. The TVC for example is developed for nearly a decade now, but no customer wants to pay for the integration, so even if we choose EF and to fund this tech, we will only pay money, not develop anything. The only part that would include real R&D is the Sea Typhoon, that's why they are offering us to lead the development, because we would have a reason to be called a real partner and they benefit from the upgrades we fund like CFTs, TVC, integration of anti ship or cruise missiles...
Remember, the EF partners are only interested in 20% of the upgrades that are offered in MMRCA, while we have to fund the rest if we go for EF and while the Rafale already has this funded and available.

If we have ToT and license to manufacture spares, we are dependent on none. And in war times, if we have the technology, we wont be waiting for a green signal to manufacture spares ourselves.

Ramu, think about it logically! If that would be true and we produce the MKI nearly completelly in India now, why is there an issue about Russian spare supply now? Why are we searching for western suppliers for several of the spares for Russian aircrafts?
ToT allows us to produce lets say the airframe, or the engine of MKI/MMRCA in India, so won't have "much" problems with these things in war times, but still many minor parts of the fighter have to be bought from the supplier country or will only be assembled in India. We will never get 100% ToT of anything, especially not from critical parts and especially not from the US, but the Europeans are more open in this area and that's why we can benefit much from this deal, even if it is not 100% ToT. Btw, we don't produce the weapons of MMRCA fighters in India, so in war times we are dependent on approval of these countries, but even in peace time the negotiations in terms of upgrades will be more difficult when 4 different partners (Austria and S. Arabia are unimportant) have to agree and find a common upgrade solution. The best example for this is the T3A agreement between the 4 partner countries, which was fixed 2 or 3 years ago, but still they didn't find a common agreement of what this upgrade really will include in terms of new capabilities. So far ONLY, Paveway IV LGBs and METEOR missile will be new, while these EFs will be able to add AESA, TVC, CFTs, or more weapons later, if somebody (India) funds the final development/integration.
Last year we heared RAF officials that they expected a decison about integration of Brimstone, or Storm Shadow by early this year, but now with even further cuts and the impressive performance of Tornado and drones in Afghanistan and Libya, they are changing their strategies and wants to keep the Tornado in service as long as possible, since it can use these weapons anyway, while EF takes over the supporting role (escorts + offering additional LGBs), rather than to replace the Tornados with fully capable EFs. At the current situation, it is more likely that they will buy more drones/co-develop the Telemos drone with Dassault and wait for the F35, rather than buying EFs.

 

[sancho]

if it includes the spares for the lifetime with the wepons, well i supose its not that bad.
also we are discussing from the start of the fascility setup for maintenance & inetial training of the technicians & pilots

but if it excludes all of this i will say leave all this & go for Gripan NG $20 Bil is a huge amount.

Look at it this way (figures selected just as an example!), the $20 billions are for one of the most capable fighters available today + the most industrial benefits we can get, which will also get up to $10 billions in return in terms of offets.
Gripen might cost only $10 billions, but we also get only $5 billions in return and since Saab & Sweden can't provide similar ToT offers, our industry will get only very limited benefit in return.
The point is, we are not paying only for a fighter, but for a package of advantages, that's why the higher costs, means also higher benefits in return and that's why not a single of those cheap fighters were shortlisted, while the 2 most expensive one were. MoD simply wants more than just a fighter for IAF and they are ready to pay more too, the only question is, who has the best package on offer for us?

 

[sancho]

Some news updates:

Cool HAL waits for the big winner

BANGALORE:� Plane-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chose not to jump into the MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) madness on Friday, even as aviation pundits world over tracked every bit of news on the opening of a bumper commercial bid...

...“First, we will make few planes from a semi-knocked-down kit, then from completely knocked-down kit and finally from absolute raw material phase. Once we are clear with the rules of the game, we will start parallel activities,” HAL sources said.

When asked how significant will be the MMRCA project to HAL, the official said: “It will be a huge learning curve for us as we lay our hands on the next-level of fighter jet. It will also give us some learning points for our Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. We will be able to extrapolate the MMRCA knowledge to FGFA. Definitely it is an exciting prospect to get involved with Western aircraft technology.”

Cool HAL waits for the big winner - southindia - Karnataka - ibnlive

MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts

NEW DELHI: Now, battle-lines for the Europe versus France contest, after elimination of US and Russia in earlier rounds, have been clearly drawn. India on Friday opened the financial bids of the two fighters left in the fray for the world's biggest combat aircraft deal, but promptly declared it would take at least two-three weeks to declare the eventual winner since tons of data had to be computed...

...Sources, however, said the "unit flyaway cost" or "direct acquisition cost" of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots.

But the unit flyaway cost will not be the only factor to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). The MoD will also take into account "life-cycle costs" or the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying.

Besides, there are costs of the transfer of technology (ToT) since the first 18 jets will be bought from abroad in a flyaway condition, while the rest 108 will be manufactured in India, under licence, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd...

MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts - Times Of India


So:

- same licence production procedure like we have it with MKI
- there is a chance to see Rafale/EF techs on FGFA
- Rafale is cheaper per unit than EF (figures confirms what I said as well)
- but not the cheapest unit cost will decide who wins, but the cheapest package cost

 

[kaykay]

so sancho by any means can we compare life cycle cost of both aircrafts....i mean is there any link or something from their respective companies...i tried but couldn't found.

 

[sancho]

so sancho by any means can we compare life cycle cost of both aircrafts....i mean is there any link or something from their respective companies...i tried but couldn't found.

Sadly not, because too many things will be included in this costs and any air force has different ways to calculate it. The best "hint" are statements about the operational costs per h for example, but even that is only a "hint" for us.
The Swiss evaluation found out that the Rafale is cheaper per unit and cheaper to operate, the Libyan conflict showed that Rafale is as cheap, or cheaper to operate than Mirage 2000s (single engine!), while EF turned out to be more costly than the Tornados, which could also be a reason why they returned home earlier, besides the limitations in multi role capabilities of course.

 

[ptltejas]

is it possible that any winner will also offer their Avionics EW suit(spectra-incase rafale choose) for LCA

 

[ptltejas]

Many times we loss Good Products just because on allegation of the Corruption. the howitzer of Boforce is very good but it denied on allegation of corruption. we might say no to the company did we say no to courtry on allegation of corruption for T 90 instead arjun. It is good to be more serious and mature on this aspect. The Safety and defence of country must be on top, rather corruption etc. companies definetely offer it or do it but we concern about best product. certainly we may have grievance for corruption but we can not deny weapon. Its good maturity. The Security and defence should be always first.

 

[sancho]

is it possible that any winner will also offer their Avionics EW suit(spectra-incase rafale choose) for LCA

In theory yes, practically it depends on how we integrate the systems into LCA. SPECTRA systems on Rafale are integrated into the pod on the tail fin and all around the airframe. Similarly, the EF has ECM/ESM pods at the wingtips and sensors all around the airframe, but I think more like is that such systems would be integrated on FGFA, since it is meant to be the most capable fighter, while LCA is only the low end addition and should be cost-effective mainly.