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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Source based news:
  • A detailed phone call with specific points of discussion happened between Alexandre Ziegler, Amb France and DM MP.
  • The points pertained to India's position on the so called Scorpene Documents Theft and preliminary findings.
  • It was pointed by DM MP that DGA must assure India that such an instance wont happen again for all the defence deals that have happened and are planned for India.
  • Mr Ziegler informed about officials who will be coming to India soon to present their internal findings and also to talk on this matter.
  • DM MP said India wont take any haphazard decision but would like to reassure itself that nothing is compromised and India also gets the best deals in the cooperation between the two countries.
  • The other three points discussed was a delegation for the 100% FDI approval for DCNS, F21 torpedo deal and last was the signing of Rafale Jets deal.
  • On This DM MP has assured that a suitable date will be worked out for the formal meeting of the sides and sign the pending deal agreements.
  • In the end DM MP added that since the theft has happened in France, certain reassurances in the form of expediting technology integration planned earlier needs to be done. This will help in creating the self check assurance and confidence among the end users.
  • Mr Ziegler had assured to discuss the same and all points by DM MP with his seniors and will come back shortly on this....

@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Nilgiri @Blue Marlin @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay

  • Next couple of days will see a lot about India USA relationship and how so called LEMOA will be a game changer as per Indian Media ( :hitwall: )
  • DM MP will get to hear some positive talks about India's position and good work from US counterparts and how they are eager to help India further ...
  • Expected to meet some folks who will use Mr Carter to push for their jets under MII
  • China is expected to officially comment on LEMOA signing with "proceed with caution" approach and will point to ongoing discussion and visits between India and China.
  • Post DM MP coming back some positive developments and events are planned. Will suitably disclose as the time draws near.
 
PARIKRAMA said:
Source based news:
  • A detailed phone call with specific points of discussion happened between Alexandre Ziegler, Amb France and DM MP.
  • The points pertained to India's position on the so called Scorpene Documents Theft and preliminary findings.
  • It was pointed by DM MP that DGA must assure India that such an instance wont happen again for all the defence deals that have happened and are planned for India.
  • Mr Ziegler informed about officials who will be coming to India soon to present their internal findings and also to talk on this matter.
  • DM MP said India wont take any haphazard decision but would like to reassure itself that nothing is compromised and India also gets the best deals in the cooperation between the two countries.
  • The other three points discussed was a delegation for the 100% FDI approval for DCNS, F21 torpedo deal and last was the signing of Rafale Jets deal.
  • On This DM MP has assured that a suitable date will be worked out for the formal meeting of the sides and sign the pending deal agreements.
  • In the end DM MP added that since the theft has happened in France, certain reassurances in the form of expediting technology integration planned earlier needs to be done. This will help in creating the self check assurance and confidence among the end users.
  • Mr Ziegler had assured to discuss the same and all points by DM MP with his seniors and will come back shortly on this....

@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Nilgiri @Blue Marlin @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay

  • Next couple of days will see a lot about India USA relationship and how so called LEMOA will be a game changer as per Indian Media ( :hitwall: )
  • DM MP will get to hear some positive talks about India's position and good work from US counterparts and how they are eager to help India further ...
  • Expected to meet some folks who will use Mr Carter to push for their jets under MII
  • China is expected to officially comment on LEMOA signing with "proceed with caution" approach and will point to ongoing discussion and visits between India and China.
  • Post DM MP coming back some positive developments and events are planned. Will suitably disclose as the time draws near.
Click to expand...

Under no circumstances we must sign LEMOA
 
Echo_419 said:
Under no circumstances we must sign LEMOA
Click to expand...

Why ? I am sure it will have an exit clause. If not, we can / should (probably will) insist on it.

Earlier reports had indicated that the agreed upon draft of LEMOA does not grant "automatic" permission for US ships. It will still require GoI permission to dock and replenish. India gets to access US bases close to China. Maybe in Time (not anytime soon) even take over those bases.

It will give us opportunity to expand our operational theatre and make us true Blue water Navy.
 
Shankranthi said:
Why ? I am sure it will have an exit clause. If not, we can / should (probably will) insist on it.

Earlier reports had indicated that the agreed upon draft of LEMOA does not grant "automatic" permission for US ships. It will still require GoI permission to dock and replenish. India gets to access US bases close to China. Maybe in Time (not anytime soon) even take over those bases.

It will give us opportunity to expand our operational theatre and make us true Blue water Navy.
Click to expand...

The only bases which US has near China are the ones in Japan and South Korea , if we ignore a US Army / Air force Garrison in Philippines.

When US gets numerous Air bases, naval ports by just one signature, India gets non of much importance.

Just want to point out that it was North Korean Submarine which sank a South Korean Corvette near a joint US base in South Korea when a US resupply ship was nearby , I wonder about utility of this.

The other ones in Japan , won't it be still a better proposition if we deal directly with Japan ?

I will have no problem if USA openly declares 100% political support to India over occupied Kashmir.


Its just USA getting Jupiter full of benefits compared to few clouds on earth India would get.
 
Ankit Kumar 002 said:
The only bases which US has near China are the ones in Japan and South Korea , if we ignore a US Army / Air force Garrison in Philippines.

When US gets numerous Air bases, naval ports by just one signature, India gets non of much importance.

Just want to point out that it was North Korean Submarine which sank a South Korean Corvette near a joint US base in South Korea when a US resupply ship was nearby , I wonder about utility of this.

The other ones in Japan , won't it be still a better proposition if we deal directly with Japan ?

I will have no problem if USA openly declares 100% political support to India over occupied Kashmir.

Its just USA getting Jupiter full of benefits compared to few clouds on earth India would get.
Click to expand...

US is unlikely to get much benefit out of this agreement with India. They already operate globally with or without India.

US already have Multiple bases in the M.E and Around China. They have a base in Deigo Garcia which is Bang in the middle of Indian Ocean.

Its better to sign up with the US and get multiple access than individually negotiate with Japan, taiwan, korea etc for bases. This way we can fly under the radar and let US take the chinese heat.

Its India which need access to bases near China to expand our operations and get operational experience in that part of the globe. This Expands INDIAN Foot print right into Chinese waters. The same way China is expanding int our waters (Gwadar, colombo, djibouti, Mayanmar ) and space.

Sadly this agreement with the US is not even a dynamic Action from India, its just a belated REACTION to Chinese strategy.

You can be sure that India stands to gain much more than we loose in this deal. As a matter of fact its a Win-Win deal for both India and US designed to checkmate china.

PS: Why do you think we have moved tanks into Ladak and Brahmos into Arunachal Pradesh and have pushed for border roads ?

PPS: This is a wrong thread for this discussion.
 
PARIKRAMA said:
Source based news:
  • A detailed phone call with specific points of discussion happened between Alexandre Ziegler, Amb France and DM MP.
  • The points pertained to India's position on the so called Scorpene Documents Theft and preliminary findings.
  • It was pointed by DM MP that DGA must assure India that such an instance wont happen again for all the defence deals that have happened and are planned for India.
  • Mr Ziegler informed about officials who will be coming to India soon to present their internal findings and also to talk on this matter.
  • DM MP said India wont take any haphazard decision but would like to reassure itself that nothing is compromised and India also gets the best deals in the cooperation between the two countries.
  • The other three points discussed was a delegation for the 100% FDI approval for DCNS, F21 torpedo deal and last was the signing of Rafale Jets deal.
  • On This DM MP has assured that a suitable date will be worked out for the formal meeting of the sides and sign the pending deal agreements.
  • In the end DM MP added that since the theft has happened in France, certain reassurances in the form of expediting technology integration planned earlier needs to be done. This will help in creating the self check assurance and confidence among the end users.
  • Mr Ziegler had assured to discuss the same and all points by DM MP with his seniors and will come back shortly on this....

@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Nilgiri @Blue Marlin @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay

  • Next couple of days will see a lot about India USA relationship and how so called LEMOA will be a game changer as per Indian Media ( :hitwall: )
  • DM MP will get to hear some positive talks about India's position and good work from US counterparts and how they are eager to help India further ...
  • Expected to meet some folks who will use Mr Carter to push for their jets under MII
  • China is expected to officially comment on LEMOA signing with "proceed with caution" approach and will point to ongoing discussion and visits between India and China.
  • Post DM MP coming back some positive developments and events are planned. Will suitably disclose as the time draws near.
Click to expand...
Indian interest must put first than LEMOA .:police:
Are we really going to give them access to all our facilities?

Echo_419 said:
Under no circumstances we must sign LEMOA
Click to expand...
Well on our Terms we should.
 
Shankranthi said:
You can be sure that India stands to gain much more than we loose in this deal. As a matter of fact its a Win-Win deal for both India and US designed to checkmate china.
Click to expand...
I know China is not our friend but hostile Neighbour is in no one's favour. If we get Good outcome of Deal with US only then we should go for it.

@Shankranthi
If we improve our relations with countries ourselves that will be much better.

PS: Most of powerful countries have uneasy neighbors in the world if you see.
 
Aero said:
I know China is not our friend but hostile Neighbour is in no one's favour. If we get Good outcome of Deal with US only then we should go for it.
Click to expand...

If you want to Negotiate with China, Step one is to become STRONG.

Operating in chinese waters makes us strong. THEN we Negotiate with China in good faith.

The other option is to BEG china for mercy.

Which option do you think is better ?
 
Shankranthi said:
Why ? I am sure it will have an exit clause. If not, we can / should (probably will) insist on it.

Earlier reports had indicated that the agreed upon draft of LEMOA does not grant "automatic" permission for US ships. It will still require GoI permission to dock and replenish. India gets to access US bases close to China. Maybe in Time (not anytime soon) even take over those bases.

It will give us opportunity to expand our operational theatre and make us true Blue water Navy.
Click to expand...

With LEMOA we will eventually get sucked into US orbit
 
We should sign LEMOA and any other pacts,which will help India superpower help in case a war breaks out with China.But it should give India power to Veto decisions which affect its strategic interests.

In lead up to 1962 war with China,Nehru had assumed that USSR and USA would come and help India militarily in its fight.China choose the time right.Both USA and USSR were in confrontation mode because of Cuban Crisis and did not come to help.Nehru's frantic messages for help was unheeded.USA helped but too little and too late.Nehru's policy of Non Alignment was to be blamed for no external help and India's loss.
India can not hope to compete with China on equal footing for long time to come.We will need help.This time if there is war with China,Pakistan will also like to launch simultaneous attack to reap dividends,as India will be very vulnerable.Though i don't think China will do the same,if Pakistan attacks first.

International Politics is protecting your interests.Being selfish.Allying with powerful and projecting yourself.India should reserve the Veto Power on proposed agreements with USA but it should also form alliances with like minded nations.

China and USA path is growing to cross for many years to come .Russia is wary of both USA and China,as very strong China may confront it one day.Also Russia needs China to form an alliance against USA and for the support to its economy which China provides.Thus USSR will not be openly able to support India in its war with China.
Imagine if there was no NATO.How much of financial burden it would have been on a small country like Sweden to prepare itself .Hence alliances,treaties and agreements can not be avoided and we should seek to join one with USA considering its strong adversary.
 
Blue Marlin said:
im thinking when will there be a point when the french say "just sign it ! " @Vergennes @Taygibay what do you guys think?
Click to expand...

It should be like that but it is likely not happening this deal around.

Primo, when a deal is pulling a bigger one, things get complicated.
Secundo, the deal has indeed already reached the stage where not much
can change less the parties end up truly disagreeing and talks break up.
The noise about savings is mostly aimed at the internal market of Indians
so they can get their fix of how great negotiators they believe they are and
also to put MP in a favorable light.
Tertio and that is the variable that I trust you were looking for, the internal
politics of France have now taken over on our end. With the elections coming
in the Spring, Hollande will be very interested in signing and considering how
low his popularity / chances of reelection are, it may push him over the edge
( AKA make him say yes where he should hold fast ) if he deems the resulting
news useful or necessary.
And since this is a govt to govt deal ( where Dassault is but a contractor ), he could.

Honestly, this is a weapon for the Indian side but one with an expiration date.
Once the elections have come and gone, the winners will have different views.
In the least likely scenario, Président Le Pen may balk at signing altogether.
If, just as unlikely, the Gauche /LEFT remains in power, the French team will have
reached the point you described.
And in the most likely possibility of a Classic Right majority, it will depend on their
leader and the team that forms around him. It could go either way but the pressure
to sign will be significantly lessened with only the strategic partnership keeping it up.

Another potential client decided to wait for 2017 a few months back and they're just
as shrewd as the Indians. And a quick reaction in the most likely case would be ...
well, most likely! It could set the Indian order down to fourth place.

That's your context.
Great day to you and yours, Tay.
 
Last edited:

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