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Dante and Islam

EagleEyes

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Dante and Islam

Dante Alighieri was a conservative, devout Christian, as well as a strong representative of the attitude of his time Such a perspective is displayed in his book, the Inferno, in which he responds to one of the influences of his time period. the Arabic worlds The influence of Islam was not found in all aspects of medieval society yet its impact, found especially on Christianity and medieval intellectual life, was strongly felt In canto VIII of the Inferno, where Dante describes the existence of mosques in the city of Dis, and in canto XXVIII, where one encounters Mohammed and Eli in Hell, Dante conveys his attitude towards Islam His placement of these aspects of Arabic culture amongst the sinners of Hell corroborates the notion that Dante held a contemptuous and negative view towards the Muslim world His antipathy for such a culture is based not simply on a prejudiced view that he heldn but rather on his disgust towards its effects on the Christian Church as well as on medieval intellectual lifeW Based on his inclusion of Muslim mosques and leaders in Hell, one can see that the impact on medieval life obviously perturbed Dante, for he would have preferred to have his culture completely devoid of any Islamic influences.

The medieval view of Islam was a hostile one primarily based on fear and prejudice.[01] The basis for this fear evolved from the belief that the Muslim religion posed a serious threat to Christianity's existences for it gave Christianity some unwelcomed competition.[02] In other parts of the world, namely in the East, Islam had a strong foothold, and such a foothold proved to be menacing to Christianity since it showed the world that Christianity was not the absolutes most powerful religion. While the Muslims jeopardized the reputation and stability of the religion of the West, other Christian lands were falling under Arabic ruled One of these countries included Spain, where Muslim occupation, which began in 711 A D , resulted in the religious conversion of the Spanish people and culture.[03] This conquering of Christian soil proved to be another reason why the West felt threatened by the Arabic presence in the world In addition, disdainful views of Mohammed were held by Westerners, for he was regarded as being a false prophet, as a result, Islam was regarded as a heresy, for it appeared to be so radically different from Christianity, and did not involve the worship of the Christian god.[04] In addition, Mohammed was also thought of as being the Devil's tool to end Christianity's spread and success to being instead:

a sexual, self indulgent murderer whose book Ache Koran was a collection of pretended revelations and whose religion spread by deceit, violence and the lure of lascivious practices.[05]

Most people in the West during the Middle Ages harbored these antipathetic feelings for IslamS in which the religion and its progenitor were looked upon with such disdain.

In the Inferno, Dante proves that he was not exempt from this scornful attitude towards the Arabic culture. The first time one encounters any aspects of Muslim culture throughout the Inferno is in canto VIII, when Dante and Virgil are coming upon the city of Dis. As Dante explains to Virgil, "I can already see distinctly a- / master -- the mosques that gleam within the valley, / as crimson as if they had just been drawn out of the fire."[06] In these lines, Dante's contempt for Islam is made quite evident, for he places mosques, the sanctuaries of Muslim worship, in the city of Dis. Had Dante respected the Arabic culture, he would have placed these mosques either in Purgatory or in Heaven, not in Hell amongst all of the other infidels and sinners. Furthermore, he states that the mosques are "as crimson as if they had just been drawn X out of the fire"; thus, Dante suggests that the mosques are ablaze. By indicating that they are in flames, Dante is punishing the followers of Islam, for the fire will bring about the destruction of their mosques. Such a description of these mosques reveals Dante's contempt for Arabic culture.

In canto XXVIII, where one encounters Mohammed and Eli, Dante's lack of respect for Muslim culture is again Portrayed. In this canto, one of the sinners tells the two travelers of Hell: "See how maimed Mohammed is! And he / who walks and weeps before me is Ali, / whose face is opened wide from chin to forelock" (canto XXVIII, 31-33). Since they caused schism in life, Dante has eternally punished them in a gruesome manner by having their wounds sealed and then reopened by a devil. Had he not felt so contemptuous of Islam, he would have not placed Mohammed and Ali, the religion's two most influential men, in Hell. Furthermore, Dante would not have depicted them as being maimed in such a graphic manner if he was not so perturbed by the culture. One can imagine that such a punishment would bring an extremely excruciating amount of pain upon the individual who is being punished; thus, by giving these two progenitors of the Muslim religion an extremely tormenting, agonizing punishment for eternity, Dante shows how strong his aversion to the Arabic world is. Had he not been so contemptuous of Islam, then he would have given Mohammed and Ali a milder punishment.

The placement of the two most influential men in Islam among the schismatics introduces one of the main factors that fuels Dante's contempt for Arabic culture. In addition to a prejudice against the culture, Dante's dislike is also derived from its effects on Christianity In contrast to the view of his time, Dante does not punish Mohammed and Ali for heresy, but rather for schism, indicating that they brought about schism in the Christian Church.[07] Mohammed and Eli are not only responsible for heresy, as Dante believed, because in addition to forming a religion that went against the ideals and established views of Christianity, they also caused dissent and schism within the Christian community. During the Middle Ages, there was a prevalent belief that Mohammed was an apostate Christian, possibly even a cardinal.[08] Furthermore, Mohammed possessed a deep reverence for Christ, for he regarded him as being the greatest of prophets, and considered his birth to be a wonderful event.[09] Even though Mohammed might have been an apostate, he was still a member of the Christian community, thus, when he decided to break sway from Christianity to form Islam, he took with him many followers of the Christian god. Since the Muslim religion began to attract many individuals, eventually consuming almost all of the East, Dante must have felt that these individuals were "stolen" from Christianity, and would have been part of his religious community if it were not for Mohammed. For this reason, Dante feels that Mohammed caused dissent, or schism, in the Christian community, and was not responsible simply for heresy. For Dante, heresy involves doubting Christianity's ideals "Epicurus and his followers, f all those who say the soul dies with the body" (canto X, 14-15). Since part of the Christian doctrine entails the belief that the soul has an afterlife either in Heaven or Hell, Epicurus doubted this belief by stating that "the soul dies with the body^" Thus, he spoke against Christian doctrine, and for that reason, he is amongst the heretics Dante most likely believed that Mohammed was responsible for heresy as well, however, his main problem with Mohammed is predicated on the turmoil that he caused in the Christian community by founding Islam. Dante punishes Mohammed not just for establishing the Muslim religion, but rather for having such a profound impact Ott his own beloved religion. Dante does not simply blame Mohammed for breaking up the Christian religion, rather, he also thinks that the Christian clergy was also at fault.[10] If there had been no problem with the Christian Church, then there would have been no need to break away from it. However, since Mohammed chose to do son then Dante, as well as other critics of the Church, decided to blame the clergy for the establishment of Islam. According to Dante and these other Clitics, the problems that existed within the Christian Church were a primary cause for the establishment of the Muslim religion; therefore, the way to ameliorate such a problem of schism would be to reform Christianity.[11] Such an attitude reflects Dante's love of his own faith, for he would want the Church to be reformed in order to bring it back to an ideal, divine state. In the Inferno, some of these problems of the Church are addressed by Dante in order to bring about this reformation of Christianity such as the problem dealing with S L mony. Dante's delivers an invective against simony when he states, "Rapacious ones [simonists], who take the things of God, / that ought to be the brides of Righteousness, and make them fornicate for gold and silver!" (canto XIX, 2 4). Thus, Dante is critical of clergy members who use their power with the Church to make money, by selling either pardons for one's sins or entries into Purgatory. Simony is one of the problems with the clergy that Dante tries to redress, for he felt that it was one of the many faults of Christianity that helped to bring about the establishment of the Muslim religion.

While the effects of Arabic culture on Christianity formed the basis for Dante's hatred of Islam, its effects on mediswal society were also responsible for fueling his anger. One of the areas in which medieval society was affected by the Arabic world was in the tradition of courtly love poetry (Provencal poetry sung by the troubadours) that praised women.[12] The theory suggesting that courtly love poetry was influenced by Islamy called the "Arabist theory," was initially pursued by a marl named Giammaria Barbieri in his book Dell'origine delta Poesie rimata, published in 1790.[13] Some of this influence could have also come from a type of Arabic poetry called Mozarabic, which not only preceded the poetry of the troubadours, but also resembled it in "some fundamental structural features and thematic characteristics."[14] In this form of Arabic poetry, as in the poetry sung by troubadours, the existence of themes that praise women is evident. In addition to poetry, other forms of Arabic literature could have impacted the Provencal poetry, such as the Muslim tales that followed the format of the following one by Ahmed ibn Abu-l-Hawari, who lived during the ninth century:

In a dream I saw a maiden of the most perfect beauty, whose countenance shone with celestial splendour. To my asking, "Whence comes the brilliance on thy faces" she replied... "I took those tears of thine and with them anointed my face, since when it has shone in brilliance."[15]

This tale shows how Arabic literature placed women, based on their physical attributes, on a high pedestal, for the woman ill the following tale is "of the most perfect beauty" and "shone with celestial splendour." In comparison, one can look at an example of an Italian troubadour poem from the thirteenth century and notice that there is a similar emphasis on the physical beauty of women:



In her face I have see [sic] the moon,

smiling with her radiant look. Did she

appear to me, I ask my eyes, while I was

awake or in a dream?

That look is a true mystery! It makes my

body sick, but it also cures it.[16]
The praise of women in this excerpt is quite clear, for the beauty of the girl is so tremendous that the author puts forth the possibility that she appeared to him while he was in the midst of a dream. Furthermore, since she smiles "with her radiant look," there is the suggestion that her appearance is not only radiant, but also intriguing. By comparing the troubadour poem with the Arabic tale, one can clearly see the possible influence of the Arabic world on medieval literature.
Arabic influence on courtly love poetry would have greatly perturbed Dante due to the fact that he was so anti-Arabic, and would not have favored having his culture tied to the culture of which he was so contemptuous. Rather, he would have most likely preferred to have his culture completely devoid of any Islamic aspects, and instead consisting purely of Christian characteristics. Ironically, this courtly love poetry was also exercised by Dante himself.[17] His treatment of courtly love in the Inferno is shown when he writes about a lady for whom he used to have an attraction, Beatrice. In courtly love language, Virgil describes her as being "so blessed, so lovely... Her eyes surpassed the splendor of the star's" (canto II, 53-55). In these lines, Dante praises Beatrice by describing her as being "blessed," and "lovely," with eyes full of "splendor." Such an emphasis is placed by Dante on the physical characteristics of Beatrice that one can notice parallels between his poetry and the two excerpts from above of the Arabic tale and the troubadour poem. Dante, like the authors of the two works cited above, centers his description of Beatrice on her beauty and physical attraction. Therefore, one can assume that Dante was subject to the same Islamic influence to which the author of the troubadour poem above was susceptible.

While the Arabic world had a severe impact on medieval literature, it had an even greater impact on medieval intellectual life. At the time, Europe was craving for more information on science and philosophy, for the people of Europe were depleting their supplies of "intellectual capital."[18] Furthermore, the demand for more scientific and philosophical information was going stronger by the day, and European sources were not offering any new material to satisfy the desires of people. Thus, Western scholars were prepared to search out Arabic texts and translate them because they strongly desired to have new knowledge.[19] From the works and texts of Arabic peoples Europeans expanded their knowledge on diseases arithmetic, algebra, trigonometry, and incorporated astronomical tables from the Arabs that became the standard ones of the Middle Ages.[20] Before this decision to translate works from Arabic into either Latin or the vernacular, Europeans had little knowledge of Greek philosophy and science, for most of the Greek works concerning these fields had been translated into Arabic. Thus, when Europeans were able to translate Arabic texts, they gained the knowledge, for the first time, of Aristotlea Euclid« Ptcjismyy and Archimedes, amongst others. Such knowledge was readily accessible to Western Europe due to Muslim Spain, for Spain became:

...for the greater portion of the Middle Ages a part of the Mohammedan East, heir to its learning and its sciences, to its magic and astrology, and the principal means of their introduction into Western Furope.[21]

As a result of this impact on medieval Europe, the intellectual life was significantly expanded, for new inforsnation ranging from medicine to linguistic philosophy was delivered to the Westerners.[22] In light of his character, Dante was probably against the foothold that the Arabic world had on the intellectual life of medieval Europe. To witness such a scene in which his culture was opening up to the East must have been a horrific and discouraging experience for Dante, who feared that the possession of such knowledge would result in "spiritual perdition" and "eternal damnation."[23] Dante condemns some of those who indulged themselves in this knowledge, for he places some of them in his Hell. For example, alchemy was one of the sciences that the West learned from the East;[24] however, in the Tenth Pouch of the Eighth Circle, Dante describes two alchemists as "sitting propped against each other -- / as pan is propped on pan to heat them up -/ and each, from head to foot, spotted with scabs" (canto XXIX, 73-759. Dante places these two in Hell for falsifying metals, for he considered falsification to be a sing However) one can argue that he also places them in Hell since they were practicers of alchemy, suggesting that they succumbed to the influences of Islamic cultureS Thus, in light of his character, one can assume that Dante did not want his own Christian culture to be tainted by the Arabic world.

Dante expresses his discontent with having any individual associate with Arabic culture by placing Frederick II, ruler of Sicily during the thirteenth century, in Hell among the Epicureans. While Frederick is punished by Dante for believing that the soul dies along with the body, one can argue that Frederick was also placed in Hell due to the fact that he showed a great sensitivity and appreciation for Islamic cultures The poets of his court wrote about aspects of Arabic culture, while Arabic philosophers, translators, and other scholars were constantly roaming throughout his halls. In addition to having the intellectual aspects of his court exposed to Muslim influence, Frederick also made the domestic elements "Arabized," for in addition to having a harem, his bodyguards and clothes resembled those of Muslim culture.[25] While Dante placed Frederick in Hell due to his Epicurean beliefs, it is likely that Frederick's praise of Islamic culture was in Dante's mind when condemning him to his eternal fate.

Dante himself shows that he may have been influenced by Islam in writing the Divine ComedyN Miguel Asin Palacios put forth the controversial idea in 1919 that Dante got the idea for writing about a journey through Hell, then eventually up to Heaven, from two famous Islamic works of literature: the Isra and the Mirage The former is about Mohammed's journey through Hell, while the latter is about his Ascension from Jerusalem to the Throne of Gods These two Arabic works of literature struck Palacios as prototypes for Dante's Divine Comedy, in which Dante goes on a very similar journey In addition, Palacios found that the links between the Muslim legend and Dante's poem also included picturesque, descriptive, and even episodic similarities.[26] For example, Palacios drew a comparison between the city of Dis and the city in the Moslem Hell, for both were described by the authors as being a city of fire. Furthermore, the tombs of the heretics are described by Dante as being a bed of fire, each harboring coffins of red hot iron; similarly, Mohammed saw an ocean of fire, on whose shore were cities in flames with thousands of red hot coffins.[27] Thus, Palacios concluded that Dante used the Isra and the Mirai as outlines in critics his journey through Hell, and eventually up to Heavenly While this assumption may be true, one can argue that Dante used these Arabic works as references in order to write a better, more complete Christian story. Thus, he possibly wanted there to exist a similar story to the Muslim legend, only one which was written by a Christian and that was superior to the Muslim story. If this intention was Dante's plan, then his attitude towards Islam is only corroborated, for he attempted to prove how any piece of Christian literature could emulate and surpass any Arabic literature, even if the works involved were coveted Muslim legends.

Although Dante looked upon the Arabic world with nothing but contempt and disdain, one must keep in mind that he was reflective of the general attitude of his time, in which his culture was skeptical towards Islam as a whole. However, it is ironic that such antipathy for Muslim culture did not stop any Westerners from absorbing the extensive knowledge that the Arabic world offered the West. It is also ironic that such hatred was not mutual; rather, the West simply did not exist to those of the East, for the Muslims believed that "Their own religion was far superior their language, the language of the angels, was matchless and their way of life left nothing to be desired."[28] Thus, the Muslims basically chose not to involve themselves with the affairs of the West since they considered themselves to be culturally superior. At the same time, the Arabic world "went its own way unmindful of the West," suggesting that the Muslims did not regard the Europeans in a hostile manner.[29 Such are assertion makes the harsh treatment of Islam by Dante, and other Westerners, seem more unjustified.

http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/papers/dai/
 
I read the Inferno and the Divine Comedy in 1963/1964. At that time I was Arts Chairman of my college ( Battersa College of Technology, now University of Surrey). I was disgusted by the treatment by a great medieval poet of our holy Prophet ( pbuh).

One my tasks was to arrange intellectual debates between different schools of thought. During one such forum where Bishop of Coventory along with an Atheist thinker were among the guests. I put this question to the Bishop ( his name slipped my mind, it was 40 years ago). The Bishop replied that the rise of Islam had been so swift that in a hunderd years after the death of the holy prophet(PBUH) ( 632 AD), Muslims had reached Poitier in Southern France. Medieval christians thought that such swift rise cannot happen unless it had a divine/satanic hand. Many in the Church therefore considered our holy prophet ( PBUH) to be the Anti Christ ( Dajjal) that is why Dante put Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and the formost fighter of Islam, Hazrat Ali ( R A) in one of the deep levels of hell.

One has to understand that medieval Euoropean were intolerant and ruthless in their belief. They were the only ones who were right and all other were wrong. It is therefore incorrect to judge Dante on the criteria of today's cosmopolitan world. Dante Aligheri was born in 1264 (?) that is 300 years before Galileo who was prsecuted just for saying that it was earth that moved round the sun and not otherwise as the Church then believed. Also Crusades happened during the same period.
 
Glad to hear your experience sir.

Inferno, even though a great piece of literature is filled with bunch of wishful thinking, and thinking of the common western people during that time. He is the author. He is going to end the book the way he likes.
 
I read the Inferno and the Divine Comedy in 1963/1964. At that time I was Arts Chairman of my college ( Battersa College of Technology, now University of Surrey). I was disgusted by the treatment by a great medieval poet of our holy Prophet ( pbuh).

One my tasks was to arrange intellectual debates between different schools of thought. During one such forum where Bishop of Coventory along with an Atheist thinker were among the guests. I put this question to the Bishop ( his name slipped my mind, it was 40 years ago). The Bishop replied that the rise of Islam had been so swift that in a hunderd years after the death of the holy prophet(PBUH) ( 632 AD), Muslims had reached Poitier in Southern France. Medieval christians thought that such swift rise cannot happen unless it had a divine/satanic hand. Many in the Church therefore considered our holy prophet ( PBUH) to be the Anti Christ ( Dajjal) that is why Dante put Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and the formost fighter of Islam, Hazrat Ali ( R A) in one of the deep levels of hell.

One has to understand that medieval Euoropean were intolerant and ruthless in their belief. They were the only ones who were right and all other were wrong. It is therefore incorrect to judge Dante on the criteria of today's cosmopolitan world. Dante Aligheri was born in 1264 (?) that is 300 years before Galileo who was prsecuted just for saying that it was earth that moved round the sun and not otherwise as the Church then believed. Also Crusades happened during the same period.

Sorry to go off topic but did you say Battersea? as in the borough of london? if so then you may know my old neighbourhood!
 
I would point out that Islam has little room to complain about how Mohammed is treated in the Inferno after the way the Koran portrays Jesus and the apostles. If you don't want your founder commented on, don't comment on some one elses founder.

That being said there was no way Islam and Christianity were going to get along after the intial islamic invasions.

Islam's invasion of christendom was devestating and placed 2 patriachs (Jerusalem, Constantinople) under Moslem rule and ended two other patriarchys entirely (Anitoch, Alexandria). It overan about half the Christian lworld and then once in control of those areas, passed laws aimed directly at blocking the practicing the central tenets of the Christian faith (public baptism and evangalism), enslaved millions of Christians, and took Christian children as slave soilders.

You can't do those things to a faith group without becoming hated. Look at the ange rof the Arab street today over what they percieve as simialr acts. The fact that Islam slammed into the west at the worst possible time for the Byzantine Empire and Western Europe only adds to the fear those people must have felt. Just as Christianity finally triumphed over Zorostarianism a new religion and its armies is unleashed to visit tribulations on the faithful. Just like a divine or infernal plague depending on point of view to the medievil mind.

if not for Charles Martell, islam might have carried Europe.

Islam got a tast of its own medicine vs the Mongols. What Europe suffered was minor considering what Ghenhis Khan and his sucessors did to Islam, killing the last legitmate Caliph.

Later of course Europe got its revenge after Islam stagnated and fell behind the technology curve and got carved up by the colonial powers.
 
And Muslim lands continue to fall behind. And now Europe continues to get revange and continues to colonize.
 
Technologically we have been falling behind, out of all the Islamic nations only Turkey and Pakistan are actually doing something even if it's on a limited scale of R&D. But can you blame the people for this problem "definetly not" the only people to blame are the incompetent leaders that we have. Muslim nations want to unite and this is a trend in the ME and some Asian Islamic countries if you know the "Islamic Brotherhood" party in Egypt their ideology is to re-establish the caliphate, but the Mubarak govt. is oppressing them, but the party is gaining head way in Jordan. What the west has been doing is just lighting the fuel in a canister, but someday the canister has to explode. Everyone knows these leaders don't represent the will of the people, and once the explosion occurs they will be taken down, it has happened in nations in the past (Iran, etc) and it will definitely happen again in the GCC. I have no doubt west is getting revenge, hence why the public in those countries are calling it a "War against Islam", which I personally believe it is. Just by listening to bush saying terrorists are "Islamic Fundamentalist".

- Hence you have to be a fundamentalist to understand the scriptures, same as those Christians.

To correct Zraver, Islam respects Jesus and their is nothing in the Quran that talks bad about him or the Islamic people for that matter, unlike Christians in the West and popes, etc, I have personally heard Fathers (who I have beat with my friends in the parking lot) mad mouthing Islam, but if it offends you then you should teach your people in the west. Name me once when we have disrespected Jesus? On this matter if have seen Christians disrespect their prophet so many times instead of treating his with respect they make comedy and other jokes which I seen very disrespectful, it's one thing being enlightened but another thing when making fun of a religious icon.

Islam got a tast of its own medicine vs the Mongols. What Europe suffered was minor considering what Ghenhis Khan and his sucessors did to Islam, killing the last legitmate Caliph.

Yes, we suffered but guess what their successors became Muslims, and spread the religion.

Also, know the west wasn't spared either from Genghis Khan (not to forget Atilla The Hun).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Mongol_Empire_map.gif

Also, know in the Battle of Ayn Jalut, we defeated the Mongols and this was their first defeat as an empire, and never came back to seek another battle.

Later of course Europe got its revenge after Islam stagnated and fell behind the technology curve and got carved up by the colonial powers.

Europe is carved as well into different countries? Wasn't Germany carved into East-West end of WWII and in 90's rejoined. The Islamic world will rejoin again once these western backed leaders are gone who have bought nothing but misery to the people. But even today the west is scared of a Caliphate, which will re-emerge.

It overan about half the Christian lworld and then once in control of those areas, passed laws aimed directly at blocking the practicing the central tenets of the Christian faith (public baptism and evangalism), enslaved millions of Christians, and took Christian children as slave soilders.

Provide proof of this, we went so far up to Spain in Europe and also learn about the Islamic tax, it was fair to all, even those who paid were exempt from the military. Provide proof of Christian salves and using their Children as soldiers which is absurd. Also, your attacking Islam, look what Christians did after they retook Spain, forced conversion and slaughter, also if Islam was so bad why did it let Christians live once we retook Jerusalem from the crusaders which when they came they slaughtered the city's inhabitants?
 
I would point out that Islam has little room to complain about how Mohammed is treated in the Inferno after the way the Koran portrays Jesus and the apostles. If you don't want your founder commented on, don't comment on some one elses founder.

That being said there was no way Islam and Christianity were going to get along after the intial islamic invasions.

Islam's invasion of christendom was devestating and placed 2 patriachs (Jerusalem, Constantinople) under Moslem rule and ended two other patriarchys entirely (Anitoch, Alexandria). It overan about half the Christian lworld and then once in control of those areas, passed laws aimed directly at blocking the practicing the central tenets of the Christian faith (public baptism and evangalism), enslaved millions of Christians, and took Christian children as slave soilders.

You can't do those things to a faith group without becoming hated. Look at the ange rof the Arab street today over what they percieve as simialr acts. The fact that Islam slammed into the west at the worst possible time for the Byzantine Empire and Western Europe only adds to the fear those people must have felt. Just as Christianity finally triumphed over Zorostarianism a new religion and its armies is unleashed to visit tribulations on the faithful. Just like a divine or infernal plague depending on point of view to the medievil mind.

if not for Charles Martell, islam might have carried Europe.

Islam got a tast of its own medicine vs the Mongols. What Europe suffered was minor considering what Ghenhis Khan and his sucessors did to Islam, killing the last legitmate Caliph.

Later of course Europe got its revenge after Islam stagnated and fell behind the technology curve and got carved up by the colonial powers.

oh oh i am starting to smell something off here........where to start where to start....

I think you will find that Jesus or ISA (pbuh) is well regarded in the muslim world so where you get "Koran portrays Jesus and the apostles." baffles the hell out of me....Probably watching too much evangilism Tv dude.

Maybe you should check the history of the crusades mate......the Byzantine empire and the muslims got on perfectly well until the first crusade....in fact most of the orthodox christians and muslims got on fine until the latins came along. In fact the "savage" muslims allowed pilgimages to and from Jerusalem instead of butchering everyone there.
 
I dont think the West or anybody for that matter, is bothered or even thinking about the Islamic Caliphate rising. Islam have never been as divided as it is today
 
Sorry to go off topic but did you say Battersea? as in the borough of london? if so then you may know my old neighbourhood!


Yes Battersea CAT. It was located on the Battersea Park Road. It later metamorphised into the University of Surrey at Guildford. I lost contact after my favourite teachers (Dr SR Tailby and Dr Thomas) retired in the 80's.

At that time I lived in digs in SW19 ( Clonmore Street) and had a second hand motor bike (Truimph Tiger Cub) as my transport. I have some fond memories of Epsom as the Epsom General Hospital had some beautiful nursing students :-)P)
 
I dont think the West or anybody for that matter, is bothered or even thinking about the Islamic Caliphate rising. Islam have never been as divided as it is today

Think we are going off the topic here. I have to search my memory, but I did read the Divine Comedy as it was considered as one the greatest works of the Italian Literature. the book has three parts. The first part is Inferno, second Purgatory and the third Paradiso.


Dante is describing a dream where he meets Virgil ( a pre Christian Roman poet,famous for Aenid which describes that the roman people were actually remnants of the Trojans) Virgil guides Dante through various levels of Hell.
In the Inferno, there are 8 or 9 circles of hell and Dante assigns different sinners to different levels of hell ( includining one Pope) in accordance to his personal belief.

As I have noted earlier, it is not the question of what is 'Right' or what is 'Wrong'. It is is what Dante believed to be right or wrong and what was generally accepted to be in line with the beliefs of the Italians at large at that point in time.

Lets us not forget that Church at that period in history, was in very aggressive mode. Crusades were in vogue. There was also conflict between the supremacy of temporal over spiritual ( Pope verses the holy Roman Emperors). I am neither defending Dante nor am I condemning him. It pained me to realize that he was very anti Islam; but then if the medeival European Christians were not violently anti Islamic, Crusades would have never occurred.

My point is that when judged as a literary work; other epics; such as Mahabharata, Homer's Odyssey, Firdousi's Shahnameh are poetical masterpieces; so is the Divine Comedy. Parts of it however offend me and will continue to do so but it doesnot diminish the merit of Dante as a poet.

I repeat what Bishop of Coventry replied. It would be incorrect to judge Dante in today's cosmopolitan world view. He should be judged as poet only and nothing else.
 
Niaz,

I was talking about Present Shia-Sunni divide, which is getting wider, A muslim political entity ready to challenge west, I dont see anything. Its a offtopic.

About Dante, i dont know about him and about his book; so i cant comment. But it is stupid to compare mindsets of medival people to the standards of today. Wether it is the crusades, Genghiz Khan, Hindukush etc. Moraility and Human rights werent born yet.
 
Present situation with the Shia-Sunni thing is only a western policy to divide and rule. I will not agree if it is getting wider.
 
First off let me preface: If your faith is real to you, its real, but that requires that you also extend the same tolerance to me and my faith.

Dragonking,

This going to be a long post and rather involved.

The view of Jesus as messiah and God by Chrisitans and the recording of his words by his apostles can be authortively proven to occur prior to AD70 (except Revelation written in AD 90 on Patmos) noit just by Christian source sbut by secular and goverment records and post of the Romans, by Jewish sources, and by the ommision of any refrence to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.

The oldest Bible (codex) is nealry 400 years older than the Uthman Koran and the primary statement of Christian Faith (Niccean Creed) also predates Islam.

Where does the Koran and Mohammed get the right to tell another faith group they are wrong and that the words issued by its spiritual head were never actually said depsite all of the above sources? By trying to change Jesus message it calls both God and Jesus a liar. Or do you really think man has the power to defeat God?

Islam has no right to question the validity of Christianity. There are absolute scientific impossiblities in the Koran. If God is never wrong, why is the Koran? In fact the errors contained in the Koran conform exactly to the commonly accepted greek view in many cases including the formation of the fetus. What islam boils down to is a faith, whose legitiamcy rest entirely within the indivuals desire to beleive or disbeleive it.

Eve rheard of the Janisseries, the yearly tribute of Christian children levied on Christian tributaries of the ottomans? Or the slave taking by the barbary pirates. or the Arab slavers who introduced europe to the African slave trade?

keysersoze,

The first Crusade was in direct repsocne to Alexius I request for mercancery troops. becuase of the fractured nature of Western Europe at the time the only central authority or post system was via the Chruch so he adressed his letter to Pope Gregory. Who was locked in a struggle with Henry IV of Gemrany. By the Time Pope Urban repsonded 24 years later he used Alexius call to depopulate Europe of its surplus of warriors and booming population caused by the increas ein agriculture due to the medievil Warm period that saw Europe increase its population by upto 300% in 300 years from 1000-1300 AD.

Why did Alexius want troops? Becuase he just lost Anatollia to the Seljuk Turks and with it 80% of the empires population and its primary means of rebuilding its army. In fact beofre the Crusaders and Alexius parted ways, they attacked and retook Niccea for the Byzantine Empire.

I am not apologizing for the "Latins", they were barbaric, but Muslims and Christians most certainly did not get along.

Ayn jalut, ya so you beat the grandchildren of the original invaders. To bad their great great grandchildren stomped all over the Muslim word again under tamerlane. ya he was a nominal muslim, bit with brother sin the faith like that who needs enemies?
 
First off let me preface: If your faith is real to you, its real, but that requires that you also extend the same tolerance to me and my faith.

Zraver let me preface this with the following. If anyone was abusing you for your faith or attacking you for being a Christian. I would defend you and also expect the mods/admin to admonish the parties responsible. However the only thing that has happened here is that a number of people have (albeit forcefully) disagreed with the content of your post.

OK Well the Fact remains that the "downtrodden Christians" of that period pretty much started fights with everyone. the Hungarians, Bulgarians and even a Byzantine army! that was just getting to the constantinople. And the only reason Urban made the request for the crusade was to try and heal the schism between the two churches.
There were also a number of Pogroms of the Jews in western countries. refered to by some historians as the "first holocaust" What was the reason for that? apparently they were given the choice between death or conversion.........
Also I dispute your claim that the response came 24 years later. It is beleived that it started in 1096 a year after the Council of Piacenza in 1095.

Ok the Janissaries were PAID had good social status as well as a good living standard ,and and even got pensions!

Ok you start by asking what right we have to question a religion then proceed to to question ours. If you want to take a look at the bible from a historical and scientific point of view I will happily do so. If you constitute a few points of disagreement as a "attack" or "badmouthing" simply because we hold Jesus in different light to you, then it reflects poorly upon yourself. Do you harangue Jewish people because they disagree with the idea that Jesus was the messiah?
 
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