Dante and Islam

[niaz]

I seldom engage in the criticizing others religious beliefs. However Holy Quran has been criticised and despite not being a religious scholar I have some historical knowledge and I would have my rather long winded defence.

Firstly, no muslim ( excluding bigots) would ever insult Hazrat Essa (as). Essa ( Jesus) is among the four foremost prophets of Islam; Hazart Ibrahim (as), Hazrat Musa (as), Hazrat Essa(as) and finally the holy prophet Mohammad (pbuh). The Islam creed say; I believe in Allah, his angels, his books, his prophets , in good and evil, in the day of judgement and in life after death. ( Amantu billahe wa mallaika .....). Thus it is is sin to insult either Christian or Jewish prohets or their books. If you go the Damascas ( Capital of Syria, you would find the mausoleum of St John the Baptiste inside the Ummayed Mosque ( coverted from a church) preserved to this day.

Secondly, in historical context only, you may have heard a program on BBC, where an ex nun have researched an concluded that it is not certain that the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches what Jesus Christ taught. Acccording to her research, most of the tenets of the RC ( actually formed through the efforts of St Augustine and emperor Contantine the great; after the council of Nicea in 324 AD) were actually teachings of St Paul who himself never met the Jesus Christ in person. In Quran , it is mentioned that if the Gods book were in their original form, there would have been no need to reveal the Quran.

Our holy Quran was revealed in stages, The earlier verses of Meccan times have a different feel than those revealed in Medina. Initially the Islam was not complete and if you find any contradiction ( I dont, but as a non muslim you look at it from a different perspective) it is because the situation changed. Islam was only completed after the final pilgrimage but not before, thus many tenets such as the direction of praying ( qibla) and treatment with and towards people of other religions, banning of alcohalic drink etc were done in stages.

Thirdly, Janissaris were no doubt a tribute from Christian lands. They were the equivalent of the Roman Praetorian guard and exerted nearly as much influence later on. It was no doubt inhuman but you cannot blame it on Islam. Sulaiman Qanooni enacted a law that whosoever among the princes becomes the Sultan, must put all other royal princes to sword ( later on this custom changed to imprisonment in a golden cage). This is against Islam but was practiced anyway. I don't want to defend Ottomon turks, they were a barabric people and of tartar origin.

Tamerlane was a Sunni muslim and his biography mentions him following Pirs ( holy men). He fought and killed Shias as well as Sunnis ( Ottomon turks included). It is incorrect to take his name as revenge for the defeat at Ain Jalut. Ain Jalut was a battle between Mamlukes ( also of tartar origin) and mongols. Mongol army was over stretched and reached its limit thus was defeated. Very similar to the victory of Charlse Martel at Poitier over a small Berber expeditionary force which was hundreds of kilometers beyond their Iberian stronghold and deep into the enemy territory.

Fourthly, you are probably the only person who is trying to defend the Crusades. Kindly re-read the history of all the crusades carefully. Crusaders were an ill disciplined and barbaric army. They looted Christian lands including Constantinople ( You will find a lot of the loot in the Venice museum even today). Religion was only an excuse, in reality each of the leaders were after a new kingdom and soldiers after the loot.

What you call liberation?? the massacres at Acre and other places are a legend to this day. It was worse than by the mongols who actually saved artisans and craftsmen; Crusaders killed the lot without exception.

Finally, this thread was about Dante Allegheri. No muslim writter will ever insult Jesus ( Hazrat Essa a.s.) and put him in hell. Dante put our holy prohet in 7th or 8th circle of hell. Muslims criticize his view of Islam with full justification.

 

[zraver]

keysersoze,

my preface was not beucase i was attacked, but to keep such attacks form happening by allowing me to discuss the realtive legitamacy of the Koran and Bible on the same playing feild. Both contain scientific errors that rule out the possibility of either being a 100% factual revelation form God.

What I find offensive as a Christian is the Koran saying my faith is corrupt.

OK Well the Fact remains that the "downtrodden Christians" of that period pretty much started fights with everyone. the Hungarians, Bulgarians and even a Byzantine army! that was just getting to the constantinople. And the only reason Urban made the request for the crusade was to try and heal the schism between the two churches.
There were also a number of Pogroms of the Jews in western countries. refered to by some historians as the "first holocaust" What was the reason for that? apparently they were given the choice between death or conversion.........
Also I dispute your claim that the response came 24 years later. It is beleived that it started in 1096 a year after the Council of Piacenza in 1095.

Nice way to combine several crusades and hundreds of years of histor yinto a single paragraph. I already adressed the medievil Warm period that caused a population explosion creating an excess of population that had to go some where. A few hundred years ear;ier and it was the Arabs with an excess population that boiled over and led to wide spread invasions. A few hundred years later it would be the mongols who boiled over. Blaiming a religion for a well documented trait of population pressure that spans multiple cultures over thousands of years is dishonest.

Niaz,

You may not think you ar einsulting, but Chrisitans hold that he is God in the flesh (and all the apostles testified to this) and by making him just a phrophet whose words were corrupted, how much more can Islam insult him?

As for the Nuns, the best way to establish the views of the early Church is touse the views recorded by Jewish and Roman sources who had eithe rno agenda or a hostile agenda. These sources agrees that well beofre the Jewish revolt Jesus was seen as God and Messiah. This is with in 30 years of his death. The claims the Koran makes do not agree with the factual historical record.

as for the ottoman turk the Sultan was also caliph whichh means much like the Pope he spoke rightly or wrongly for Islam. Islam ha sno problem blaiming Christianty for things the Pope did, I am simply using the same standard.

 

[blain2]

Zraver Quran does not even talk about the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) and whenever or wherever Jesus (pbuh) is discussed, it is with utmost respect (this goes for his mother Mary, peace and blessings of God upon both of them).

On the issue of you feeling disrespected in the way Islam denies the divinity of Jesus, well I could see that as something being offensive to you, however its a doctrinal issue and there is a difference in that. I guess how would that be any different in you believing that through Jesus (pbuh) lies our salvation and how a Hindu or a Budhist would see it differently? Would others not be slighted by the way Christians pass their judgement on pretty much every one else outside of Christianity on the pretext of "if you have not accepted Jesus Christ in your life, you cannot be saved"? I would also like to add that Jews and traditional adherents of judaism also do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. So your singling out of Islam on account of this issue seems discriminatory to me. In the end I know that most of these arguments are never settled. This is why we all believe in God's final judgement. So I say lets just wait on that to see who stands where.

Lastly, for a very interesting insight on what Crusades really were, you may want to check out "Warriors of God" by James Reston Jr. That should put to rest what Crusades were composed of and what kind of political machinations went on to turn Europe's downtrodden into a fanatical force. The fight was never picked by Muslims as Jerusalem had remained an open city to adherents of all the religions ever since the time of Islamic Caliph Omar (RA). There was a political need in Europe to use an opportunity to galvanize support for the Church and the only way this came about was by means of warfare against the Muslim heathens unfortunately.

 

[zraver]

Blain, unlike Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc Islam actively passes laws restricitng the practicing of the Christian or any non-Islamic faith. That of course is the big differance. While some Chrisitan rulers did the same thing, under Islam it was universal and a canon requirement.

What the crusaders really were a population relief mechanism. You can track several interrelated factors during the 1100's thats all show this. The invention of the German plow opened up vast tracks of land (leading to strip farms). This surplus food, a decrease in pandemics, and an end to migratory invasions out of the steppes, Germania and the North.

This population boom threatened European civilisation. There were now too many serfs, towns and trade centers were reborn, excess wealth was being created (via increased rents) and the warrior class exploded in number and unleashed a orgy of warfare leading to what the Church called the "Peace of God movement".

Into this maelstrom of social change Alexius Commenus I letter provided the spark that blew the lid off. Once the Papacy and Holy Roman Empire had settle dthings it was time for Pope Gregory's sucessor to repsond and use the oppurtunity to send much of this surplus population peaseant and warrior east.

This movement not only went to the Holy land but it also went north east into Russia. By the time the invasions started again with the Mongols the Northern Crusades saw the turtonic Knights expand west in the Ukraine and North along the Baltic into Estonia. it was the decendants of the Crusaders that Sudebei crushed in Poland.

On a side note the same period saw the rise of the medicant orders who would then send missonary's east. Francis of Assisi even preached to the Sultan of Egypt and several Fransicans were killed for preaching in North Africa. More importantly by the end of the period saw the expansion of the Church all the way to china were a Fransican was made the first Papal Legate of Bejing.

The growth of the Churchs or mor ecorrectly the Papacy's power during this period was acidental at first, the crusades were not planned to increase the power of the Pope. Although once the oppurtunity was identified, the Popes made good use of it.

 

[PakSniper]

Blain, unlike Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc Islam actively passes laws restricitng the practicing of the Christian or any non-Islamic faith. That of course is the big differance. While some Chrisitan rulers did the same thing, under Islam it was universal and a canon requirement.

The laws were already given from the beginning nothing was man made, once you are the follower you can't leave the Islamic faith (which is punishable), but if you are a follower of another religion in an Islamic land you are guaranteed protection, and their is nothing that hinders you doing from your daily dose of prayer.

* We might have had bad apple's (leaders) but that doesn't mean Islam over all prosecutes people, their are people who don't follow it the right way, same as in any other religion including Christianity, etc. I get get quotes from the bible that tells people to prosecute followers of other religions, etc.

Also, Christianity also calls for murder for followers of a different religion, so how can you put the blame on Islam?

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

What the crusaders really were a population relief mechanism. You can track several interrelated factors during the 1100's thats all show this. The invention of the German plow opened up vast tracks of land (leading to strip farms). This surplus food, a decrease in pandemics, and an end to migratory invasions out of the steppes, Germania and the North.

This population boom threatened European civilisation. There were now too many serfs, towns and trade centers were reborn, excess wealth was being created (via increased rents) and the warrior class exploded in number and unleashed a orgy of warfare leading to what the Church called the "Peace of God movement".

Into this maelstrom of social change Alexius Commenus I letter provided the spark that blew the lid off. Once the Papacy and Holy Roman Empire had settle dthings it was time for Pope Gregory's sucessor to repsond and use the oppurtunity to send much of this surplus population peaseant and warrior east.

This movement not only went to the Holy land but it also went north east into Russia. By the time the invasions started again with the Mongols the Northern Crusades saw the turtonic Knights expand west in the Ukraine and North along the Baltic into Estonia. it was the decendants of the Crusaders that Sudebei crushed in Poland.

On a side note the same period saw the rise of the medicant orders who would then send missonary's east. Francis of Assisi even preached to the Sultan of Egypt and several Fransicans were killed for preaching in North Africa. More importantly by the end of the period saw the expansion of the Church all the way to china were a Fransican was made the first Papal Legate of Bejing.

The growth of the Churchs or mor ecorrectly the Papacy's power during this period was acidental at first, the crusades were not planned to increase the power of the Pope. Although once the oppurtunity was identified, the Popes made good use of it.

Oki, so that gave the blood thirsty ruler the right to go and slaughter civilians man, women, and children. After reading this what can I say, they sow the seeds for their own hate, you can't blame Muslims for that can you? Also, the past isn't easy to let go.

About the preaching part, so did Islam spread to China and all the way to the Philippines and Western Africa. If it was so evil they wouldn't have accepted it would they? And "NO" it wasn't done by force.

I don't want to go into a debate (a long one) but remember this no one was insulting any faith, rather talking about Dante and his dream, but if I remember correctly you claimed on PDF that "all Muslims go to hell", so how can you now claim that your faith was being insulted, if you insulted Muslims in the past and this wasn't to long ago either.

Good Luck, I'm out from this thread.

 

[zraver]

1- I never claimed muslims went to hell. I leave judgement upto God.

2- If the past is hard to let go, then I am sure you under stand why the west distrusts Islam after 1400 years of invasions and war. A seiries of events started by the Arab invasions of the Byzantium Empire after the death of Mohammed.

3- Those passages you quoted are from the Torah part "old Testament". Jesus said "love thine enemies, and who ever is with out sin let him cast the first stone."

4- Daily prayer is only part of the Christian faith, evangalising is also part of the faith and that most definately is not protected under Islam. in fact it is a capitol crime in many cases.

 

[blain2]

Blain, unlike Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc Islam actively passes laws restricitng the practicing of the Christian or any non-Islamic faith. That of course is the big differance. While some Chrisitan rulers did the same thing, under Islam it was universal and a canon requirement.

Zraver,

My friend, you are seriously and sorely mistaken on some counts here. I suspect your opinions have been formed after doing some second hand readings (by way of articles about Islam and Muslims) rather than the actual Islamic texts.

There is no restriction on the practice of other religions if you live within an Islamic protectorate. Proselytizing for other religions is indeed forbidden in an Islamic protectorate, however those who are Christians, Jews, Hindus etc. can carry on practicing their religions without objections from anyone. Most of the Muslim countries by LAW allow this (a case in point is Pakistan). Lets not look at Saudi Arabia of today and assume it to be the way Islam sanctions things. There are Churches, Mundir (temples) and Gurdwaras (Sikhism's places of worship) pretty much all over Pakistan and by the law of the state protected.

 

[zraver]

Blain2 how can a religion be protected if the primary command of the faith is forbidden to be practiced? Instead I precieve other religions as tolerated in a second class status subject to the changing whims of the state. pakistan si now what maybe 2% non Muslim but was once what 17% other faith groups?

 

[PakSniper]

1- I never claimed muslims went to hell. I leave judgement upto God.

I remember you said it on PDF (I'm PakSniper786) their, I will try to find the post. It was a discussion with Ann Coulter.

2- If the past is hard to let go, then I am sure you under stand why the west distrusts Islam after 1400 years of invasions and war. A seiries of events started by the Arab invasions of the Byzantium Empire after the death of Mohammed.

Yes, I understand, hence why I say the west shouldn't whine when their attacked, cause they deliberately get into our business, past and present.

3- Those passages you quoted are from the Torah part "old Testament". Jesus said "love thine enemies, and who ever is with out sin let him cast the first stone."

The bible is composed of the Old and New testament. But also now look at this as well even the Jewish book called for murder of people of different fate, so you can't blame Muslims if we kill them can you, since they pratice it (but this is a story for another time).

4- Daily prayer is only part of the Christian faith, evangalising is also part of the faith and that most definately is not protected under Islam. in fact it is a capitol crime in many cases.

Bring me evidence from the Quran or Hadith where it says, people of other religion can't pratice their faith, and not protected under Islam, cause here is a quote.

Jihad is not a war to force the faith on others, as many people think of it. It should never be interpreted as a way of compulsion of the belief on others, since there is an explicit verse in the Qur'an that says:

'There is no compulsion in religion' Al-Qur'an: Al-Baqarah (2:256).

Our prophet allowed Jews and Christians to stay and pratice their faith, give me on example where he persecuted them, other than if they broke an agreement and back stabbed the Ummah, also know the first wife of the prophet I believe her cousin was a Christian who they went to and found out he was to the long awaited prophet (who he himself then converted).

Don't use countries such as Saudi Arabia as an example cause they follow Islam of different branch of Sunni (called Wahabi). Look at Pakistan and Indonesia and Malaysia, those countries have populations of Christians and they are freely allowed to pratice, as well as Lebanese Christians, Bangladesh christians, etc.

Let me say this if we were to presucte them their wouldn't be any in the middle east, or other Islamic countries.

Where on other hand laws in Europe are being passed to ban Islamic freedoms, of way to dress, etc.

Blain2 how can a religion be protected if the primary command of the faith is forbidden to be practiced? Instead I precieve other religions as tolerated in a second class status subject to the changing whims of the state. pakistan si now what maybe 2% non Muslim but was once what 17% other faith groups?

Provide source please, cause it has always been about 2-3% after partition.

 

[zraver]

Dragonking/Paksniper I don't judge mens faith thats Gods job.

As for who got into whose business, Islam attacked Christianity not vice versa.

What the jews do is upto them. But as a Christian my faith is in the new testament. I would explain the relationship between the two books to you from a Christian perspective but i don't think you care.

All you have to do is visit any Islamic country and try and convert Muslims to another faith. A Christian has a duty to spread the Gospel, if such activity is banned how can the religion be protected?

Which is more important, a style of dress designed to hold women in bondage to the western mindset or banning a signifigant act of a faith.

http://www.answers.com/topic/partition-of-india sources are cited in the paper about the loss of Pakistan minority populstion and the death of 200,000-1,000,000 on the Pakistani side of the partition line.

 

[PakSniper]

What the jews do is upto them. But as a Christian my faith is in the new testament. I would explain the relationship between the two books to you from a Christian perspective but i don't think you care.

Do care to explain cause as far as I know, Christians study both the Old and the New.

All you have to do is visit any Islamic country and try and convert Muslims to another faith. A Christian has a duty to spread the Gospel, if such activity is banned how can the religion be protected?

You are free to pratice it (besides spreading it). As I said before in Islam you can't convert to another religion its in the book and theirs nothing to debate about.

Similar to the "Old Testament", like they call for murder if they follow another religion, so how come your attacking the Islamic principals.

Which is more important, a style of dress designed to hold women in bondage to the western mindset or banning a significant act of a faith.

These are 2 different things, the clothing is to protect women (from an evil eye from perverts and I have seen alot of that in the west, no pun intended). Why you suppose their is less sexual violence then their is in the US. Women can disregard the clothing in their house in front of their family, etc, but it's required they cover themselves when they go outside (for protection).

You expect every women to show her belly button? Breasts hanging out for others to see?

Be logical here, instead of listening to Fox News. Theirs more to clothing that what you know about learning from TV or other online sources, that blame Islam. Also, know Islam regards women highly, but know this, alot of Islamic countries don't follow the Sharia law the right way, and degrade the women so it's not the fault of the religion but incompetent leaders, if you follow Sharia the right way you will have Jordan where women are holding office in leadership and getting education (Islam doesn't say women can't learn, but it's those useless leaders). Heck even Saddam allowed women to be in school and I'm sure you also watched it on TV, etc.

http://www.answers.com/topic/partition-of-india sources are cited in the paper about the loss of Pakistan minority populstion and the death of 200,000-1,000,000 on the Pakistani side of the partition line.

Those deaths on both sides came not only from minorities but also Muslims, same as for India where Muslims minorities were also killed. And it states that in your link as well. Both nations wanted to protect the minorities, but they were powerless to do it. Also, know 7 Million (Hindus/Sikhs) moved to India, while 6 Million (Muslims) moved to Pakistan, so I don't see how Islam plays a role in to it, if both sides hated each other and thats' not Islams fault.

 

[Keysersoze]

Another point I would make is this......

You speak of invasions and interference in others affairs. However it should be noted that "Christians"* are far from innocent in this regard.

Ask the Civilisations wiped out by the Spaniards in South America
or as I mentioned before the Pogroms against the Jews by the Germans (arund the 10th century) where they were forced to convert or die (please don't try and pass it off as a means of population control as we both know this is untrue.)

Or of course there was the interference with the Norse religion..take a look at the fate of Blot-Sweyn

And the ancient Greek religion (with the pantheon etc) where Christians would make false allegations against followers of the old religion and this resulted in much violence and religious persecution.

More recently there was forced conversion of Aborigine children in Australia.

And for the record when the Muslims were in Spain they did not force anyone to convert. (although they had some disadvantages they were not forced). However when the Christians came back they told all the Jews to get baptised or get out. (most of them left)

Or the persecution when the Russian Christians (Muscovy) forcibly converted the Muslims and the pagan Chuvash, Mordva and Mari.

there are many more but I am sure you get the picture.

Oh but wait there is more!!!!!!!
Apparently if I lived in TEXAS, NORTH CAROLINA, SOUTH CAROLINA and TENNESSEE I would be prevented from running from public office if I did not profess that there is a god so I guess atheists and pagans and buddists amongst others are not given the same rights! ooops!
There are a few more I could cite but I think I have made my point.....






*I use the "'s because I know there are good Christians out there.....

 

[zraver]

keysersoze,

Evil men exist who have corupted everyfatih. I am not denying that. I am challenging Islam's claim that they are the victims, and that they have the right to pass judgement on another faith.

Dragonking,

Christians study the old testament for insight into phrophecy and to show how Christ fullfilled the law. We are governed by the Commandments of Christ and the dipensation to the gentiles.

If I am not allowed to practice the "Great Commision" then I cannot freely practice it. If there is no compulsion in religion, how can Islam ban conversion from it?

Th problem between the ideal of covering, and the relaity is the secodn class status the majority of women in the islamic world are subjected too. They are denied education, economic advancement, politcal power etc. The veil has become a mark of servitude in way too many places. Instead of restricitng women, why not punish the pervets? Yet to many places place an imposible burden of proving a rape or sexual assualt so that no matter what really happened the woman will pay the price.

I blame islam becuase it refuses to modernize and adapt to modern world. Christinaty has stopped burning witches, and all in all has liberalized and acts to curbs the most excessive of the fundamentalists, Islam doesn't.

We are told most Muslims are moderates, but see very little coming form this "vast" majority to counter the nutjobs who have either 1- hijacked Islam or 2- are obeying it truthfully. it is up to everyday Moslems to show us which one it is.

 

[Introvert]

I blame islam becuase it refuses to modernize and adapt to modern world.

If the success, tranquility, and inner peace was in modern world then y would more and more ppl embrace Islam specially nowadays.

 

[Adux]

keysersoze,

We are told most Muslims are moderates, but see very little coming form this "vast" majority to counter the nutjobs who have either 1- hijacked Islam or 2- are obeying it truthfully. it is up to everyday Moslems to show us which one it is.

I have to agree with that.