Count Down begins for Arrival of the 100th JF17 Thunder

[ghauri05]

Congratulations to Everyone.... Feeling proud and excited
At current rate PAC is producing more than 25 jets/year. And jf-17 block 3 is estimated introduction will be in early-mid of 2019.
By than PAF will have above 150 jf-17 including few jf-17b trainer.
On the other hand our neighbours still operate historical mig-21,mig-27 and mirage 200 making a combine total of above 400 jets which have to me replace by 2019.And tejas is rolling out at 6 jet/year.
So india will have a few dozens of su-30. Rafale order is not enough for india.
But Pakistan will soon begin testing 4.5 gen jf-17 block 3.Which will be game changer for PAF.
Its will give PAF huge boost.
Pakistan has began research on 5 gen fighter.Hopefully research is going in right direction.

Pakistan is Going to be Next Big Thing

But IAF is gonna replace those 400 aircrafts with much more capable fighters..at least at par with F-16..so it will again give them the edge..or they can easily go for more rafaels

JF-17 is a great platform..but it's size and payload limitations are very strict....we need to have some offensive platform..a heavy fighter..jf-17 can never be deployed as an offensive fighter.

Plus Pak need to have a very robust air defense system to minimize the edge of IAF...another thread is running which shows the hope that Pak is finally considering some air defense system..hope we get them asap.

 

[CriticalThought]

But IAF is gonna replace those 400 aircrafts with much more capable fighters..at least at par with F-16..so it will again give them the edge..or they can easily go for more rafaels

JF-17 is a great platform..but it's size and payload limitations are very strict....we need to have some offensive platform..a heavy fighter..jf-17 can never be deployed as an offensive fighter.

Plus Pak need to have a very robust air defense system to minimize the edge of IAF...another thread is running which shows the hope that Pak is finally considering some air defense system..hope we get them asap.

Wrong. Being a lightweight fighter gives Thunder superiority in dogfights and it can take on any Gen 3.5 - Gen 4 threats. With Block 3, it will be able to take on up to Gen 4.5. For Gen 4.5++ we need to add LO or ideally stealth design. Where it lacks is payload, but a package of Thunders carrying 2000 lbs can still deliver a devastating blow.

 

[ghauri05]

If Kamra Expands , into a new facility in different city it will certainly enhance our monthly capabilities to manufacture and export the fighter jets to external client

The Thunder can quickly be enhanced into a near Air Superiority fighter with CFT addition which should free up 2 extra missile hardpoints

The call to modernize the F16 C/D was necessary step to extend the life of F16 and which played a vital role against ground operation against Terrorism due to Sniper targeting pods

So it was good purchase

Now Thunders are maturing a 7-10 years later from it's inception turning out to be a wonderful platform which we can enhance anytime

What's a CFT and how it helps to free hard points
N please don't write ...google it

Wrong. Being a lightweight fighter gives Thunder superiority in dogfights and it can take on any Gen 3.5 - Gen 4 threats. With Block 3, it will be able to take on up to Gen 4.5. For Gen 4.5++ we need to add LO or ideally stealth design. Where it lacks is payload, but a package of Thunders carrying 2000 lbs can still deliver a devastating blow.

Jf-17 can carry only 4-6 AAM...while SU-30 can carry 100 AAM...now..though IAF has improved it's availability..but conservatively we use the old figure of 50%...so it gives them roughly 110 SU-30 against our 100 JF-17...how do u compare this scenario???
Yes we have f-16s but they also have Mig-29,mirage2000 and now rafael will be available too...so how do u compare that can PAF gain edge over IAF???

 

[CriticalThought]

Jf-17 can carry only 4-6 AAM...while SU-30 can carry 100 AAM...now..though IAF has improved it's availability..but conservatively we use the old figure of 50%...so it gives them roughly 110 SU-30 against our 100 JF-17...how do u compare this scenario???
Yes we have f-16s but they also have Mig-29,mirage2000 and now rafael will be available too...so how do u compare that can PAF gain edge over IAF???

So the solution is to build more Thunders.

 

[ghauri05]

So the solution is to build more Thunders.

That is one solution..but we seriously need a heavy platform...even if we build more thunders..it's combat radius will never allow to carry operations inside india
remember..in 65 PAF had edge bcoz we adopted aggressive posture...and from that day u can take any war whether it's gulf war or any other...air force role has been offensive..but PAF is the only air force with defensive doctrine.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well in simplest terms , the issue of matching India plane for plane is a seperate discussion.

This thread's main purpose is simply to accept and rejoice be happy about the wonderful achivement we have made by reaching our 100th plane

Not to mention by also making external sales to Nigera and discussion of deals with Azerbijan and East Asia

Nothing is built in a day even the Pyramids took time to construct

2003-2005 we were in situation where we needed options and could not figure out a meaningful long term solution and eventually we had JF17 Thunder flying in 2009

And now we are a full 100 Fighter Jets or close to it

It appears the main objective of having a reliable fighter Jet have been met and now we are enhancing the capabilities further based on our current needs

 

[CriticalThought]

That is one solution..but we seriously need a heavy platform...even if we build more thunders..it's combat radius will never allow to carry operations inside india
remember..in 65 PAF had edge bcoz we adopted aggressive posture...and from that day u can take any war whether it's gulf war or any other...air force role has been offensive..but PAF is the only air force with defensive doctrine.

Given the state of modern SAM and radar tech, you won't be venturing very deep inside India even if you were armed with F-22. Given their multi-layer network, taking out Indian air defences would be a months' long campaign. In practice, anti-radiation missiles will be used and territory will have to be captured to ensure safe air passage. By that time, you could just as well use air to air refuelling to increase range.

You are simply not understanding the dynamic and lethal nature of all out war between India and Pakistan. Rather than buying heavy strike fighters we should be buying S-400 batteries and A-100 AEWACS.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

When we review the situation in 1990 / 2003 or 2017 things are different

1990 : Mere 30-40 F16 A/B vs Growing Indian Airforce
2003 : Mid life refresh of some Mirage vs Growing Indian Airforce


2017 : 70 F16 Block C/D + 100 JF17 Thunders vs Growing Indian Airforce


At Least with current planning we have a Local capacity to maintain a reasonable deterrance

And some appreciation is due for the people who had the mind and vision to look beyond the years 15-20 years ahead of time to figure out a proper plan for us to have a reasonable deterrance


Having Successful Super Mushaq / K-8 and now JF17 Thunder program has been a wonderful journey

With Block 3 - JF17 Thunders , will offer yet another important mile stone

Which takes us into Project "Azm"

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

JF17 Thunder's other bright spot obviously manufacturing the plane Locally in Pakistan
A feat we just don't really state often but we should becasue that is the beauty of the whole project

There is no such thing as Licence production , when you have a partnership with China

All about Deterrance and maintaining of Balance in region

 

[Centurion2016]

Thunder was a very wise decision.

Nothing fancy in plane but it gets the basics all correct

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We can certainly say sure may be we can do better with more facilities etc and may be we should start with Block 3 but it is really about taking small steps and learn and we have done that process

 

[Mumm-Ra]

One of the best programs this country has undertaken. Kudos to the team behind it and let's hope that we continue to improve it.

 

[New World]

Hi,

I don't understand what you are trying to say---. If you could be a little clearer---then I can respond in a better manner. Thank you.

Sorry sir, I was in little haste so i couldn't write properly for you to understand..

Because things start where when brother @CriticalThought said that " If, in 2005 PAF announced that they are going to spend 3.5 billion USD on Thunder, there would have been an almighty uproar and possibly you could have been one of the people raising hue and cry.
Today, I believe we should be ramping up production of Thunder. And here is how. Secure an economic zone in Saudi and set up the factory there. It can supply both export orders and PAF needs. And the good thing would be redundancy. In case of war, India cannot target factories inside Saudi or UAE ".
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/coun...100th-jf17-thunder.519388/page-3#post-9890653

and in that my response was this.
" there is already a JV between Pak-China..
as for 2005, in that time JF-17 program was subjected to shutdown as at that time Mushy and PAF chief was convinced that there will not be any sanctions again on Pakistan as they were happy with F-16 and with their commissions.. but thanks to GOD that JF-17 program survived mainly because JF-17 was being made in China and Chinese continue that program...

1990 and 2000 are being called as lost decades of PAF. because in 1990 they cancelled a done deal of advanced Mirage 2000. and in 2000 they chooses what they already have(18 F-16). against Rafale, EFT and Gripen and excuse for rejecting these aircraft was that these aircraft are too advanced for PAF. "
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/coun...100th-jf17-thunder.519388/page-3#post-9890864

and response from @CriticalThought was this.
"And the result if Chinese JV doesn't provide enough redundancy. PAC should open another factory in Saudi.
The Thunder went through 6 prototypes, with extensive inputs from PAF pilots thoroughly early to mid 2000. I don't believe in conspiracy theories.
The capital spent on operationalizing M2Ks could have made Thunder infeasible. At this point it is very hard to determine.
Thunder is a direct competitor of Gripen. No need to acquire the same platform twice.
Rafale, when it was offered had serious technical issues, due to which it was rejected. Also, Dassault could involve us on very expensive game if selling one solution to us, its counter to India, so on and so forth.
The EFT, till early 2000s, was an air superiority fighter. This is NOT what PAF required. Possibly this is the root of the perception that it was rejected for being 'too advanced '


and after reading his post my reaction was like this.
So, i called you see my brethren..

 

[Centurion2016]

Thunder is no substitute for rafale or typhoon.

It is budget version of the gripen block c/d.

Capability wise I think 80% the block 50.or mirage2000/5 for current blocks one and two .
Remember there is no Hms or hobs on thunder and weapons are only Chinease.

Block three will exciting can we see thunder with hmd/hobs. Aesa radar and western weapons options

 

[CriticalThought]

Thunder is no substitute for rafale or typhoon.

It is budget version of the gripen block c/d.

Capability wise I think 80% the block 50.or mirage2000/5 for current blocks one and two .
Remember there is no Hms or hobs on thunder and weapons are only Chinease.

Block three will exciting can we see thunder with hmd/hobs. Aesa radar and western weapons options

Insha Allah. And there is a lot more in the background that me and you have not idea about. The PAF employs 10s of thousands of employees. If even a 100 of them are working behind the scenes to integrate cutting edge tech on Thunder for the past 10 years, imagine what they could have achieved. We know only a fraction of PAF's capabilities.