Count Down begins for Arrival of the 100th JF17 Thunder

[Mrc]

So the solution is to build more Thunders.

It can b ... but we shud induct a 4 plus fighter till project azm bears fruit... to cover next 10 or so years

 

[CriticalThought]

It can b ... but we shud induct a 4 plus fighter till project azm bears fruit... to cover next 10 or so years

In very limited numbers, as quality driver and to enhance operational testing of Thunder, I support acquisition of even multiple platforms. But no use acquiring entire squadrons. The same money is best spent on S-400 and A-100.

 

[CriticalThought]

Ever since we were presented the "dishonor" of MNNA (Major Non-NATO Ally) in 2003/04, we had the options to engage any and every vendor out there. We could have courted the French, flirted with the Swedes, enticed the British and engaged with most of the hardcore vendors for ToT on AESA Radars, commonality of interface and sensor fusion with the entire war network; we had the world within our grasp and we let it all slip away because of our fetish for some sanction prone F-16's!! Treasonous love affair I say.

You have gotten from MNNA only that which foreign powers wanted to give you. Now whether it was achieved by them creating hurdles, or through collusion of our own officials, is debatable. But you could not have gotten more even if you wanted to. Sit back and think. The America who is backing the potty mouthed diatribe of its two darlings India and Afghanistan, the Australia that is providing nuclear fuel to India while completely shutting its eyes to India's blatant disregard of any limits to nuclear accretion, the France that is providing nuclear submarines, were they ever going to do a good turn to us? The great game is only now unfolding and even then we are blind to its aims and objectives. I'll make a very controversial statement: it was in Pakistan's best interests if America remained involved in Syria forever. Now that Syria is getting wrapped up, America is shifting its full focus to Afghanistan. Long story short, you could not have, and you will not, get any meaningful weapons from Western countries. Hats off to PAF for negotiating with Italy, Spain and Britain. They have been working under severe limitations to bring this nations the best they could achieve.

What we realize is a step ahead of your realization. That the F-16 turned out to be the beast it is because of investment from dozens of countries who purchased the basic version of that platform. Thousands of F-16's have been produced so far in the 50-60 odd years, their initial R&D aside, most of the remaining R&D along with Billions in profit were all made possible because USA decided to invest in its own capabilities and abilities. We could have started on that path in 2003/4 but what of the F-16 fetish!!

We could, and we did. You are seeing the result. If you think you could pump 3.5 billion dollars in 2004 - and please remember the state of Pakistan's industrial maturity in 2004 - and 15 years later have a 4.5 gen fighter ready to take over the world, then unfortunately you are severely mistaken. Sit, and think on just one aspect: the jet engine. Which country would be agreeable to let you use their jet engine? The real world gave us its answer in the form of RD-93. That's it. That's all you could get. Come down from cloud 9 and face the reality. This is all we were always going to get. It doesn't get any better than this.

F-16's are a potent counter to SU-30MKI's you say, perhaps they are. But are 70 odd sanction prone F-16's of various blocks enough to take on 272 Super MKI's???? NO!!, they are NOT!

Who says we want to keep only 70 odd Vipers? We want more. And we want other aircraft as well.

And they aren't "70 odd" Vipers today. They have been MLUed from Turkey, we have acquired indigenous capability to maintain them, and funnily enough, we learnt recently that AGM-65 has been integrated on Thunder.

And we are well aware of what we received for the 3.5 Billion USD! It is because the entire work order has to be approved from the US Senate, which is a public affair. The entire world know's exactly what we received, the quantity, the versions...hell they may well be aware of the serial numbers.

The point being?

Today, it is another ball game altogether. But 2003/4 was a different story. Today, the Chinese may possibly be where the US was 30-35 years ago in terms of engines and 15-20 years ago in terms of avionics, sensors and radars. I have read that the Chinese did not accede to Russian requests for joint development of a 5th Gen fighter platform because the Chinese believe that their technology on 5th Gen is superior to what Russians have so far. So we have the Chinese and the Russians whom we can approach for our defense needs.

I cannot criticize the forces enough. But I may not be fair in that criticism as my opinions are based on the level of information that I have. The Army is evidently quite self sufficient, it is the Naval and Aerial branches that have been unable to develop self sufficiency, understandably because their share of funds is nothing compared to that of the Army.

What I would like to see is a lot of private and commercial involvement in development of next gen weapon systems. The military cannot do everything on its own; US model is perfect, they have commercialized the R&D of warfare which has yielded dividends that the US has reaped over the decades. It is time other countries adopted the same.

It's OK to level constructive criticism on the forces. Constructive criticism is the lifeblood of any forward thinking, progressive nation. The forces are manned by humans like us. They make mistakes. As long as we learn from them we should be OK.

Our lack of expertise in electronics today is a blunder of the same magnitude, as it would be if we hadn't started our nuclear programme in the 1970s. Or if we didn't have POF and HIT today. None of this has private involement at a large scale right? I mean, individual companies supply parts, but the overall initiative is that of the armed forces. We needed a similar initiative in the realm of electronics and radar. Today it is limiting our forces in a manner that cannot be quantified.

And we can't even say that today's situation is because of lack of vision. People like Ghulam Ishaque Khan, Agha Hasan Abidi were true visionaries. IF, GIKI had been supported and continued towards the original aims envisioned by GIK, we would have been an advanced industrialized nation today. It was absolute treason of the highest order to let GIKI become just one more useless university. I want to cry as I write this.

That is a good start. But we need to acknowledge that IAF pilots are a generation better than any Qatari pilot. And IAF has had decades of practice on the SU systems, they know it's strengths and weaknesses just as we do of the F-16 Platform. What we need is regular, frequent and lengthy engagements, detailed counter plans and appropriate platform development to counter what IAF will have in the next 10-20 years.

I don't think you got me correctly. I am saying PAF should buy these aircraft. Our pilots are creative enough to learn the platform thoroughly in a few years.

Stealth, they have ruled out. Stealthier can probably be accommodated if the JF carries its weapons internally but may require radical redesigning of the air frame. Stealth, or a level of it can also be achieved the way Rafael does it, with it's sensors that deny the enemy to achieve a lock on it. Basically, Rafael's systems fool the adversary into believing that it is just not present.

Nothing should be ruled out. PAF people are smart enough to realize the threats they are facing and what steps they need to take to neutralize them.

 

[Eagle_storm]

Hi


Son,

You have a problem with language as well---. women look beautiful---warriors look nasty mean and destructively badass---. Thank you.











mmmm

intention depend,
i call them beautiful cuz they are heros.

thankyou

 

[Centurion2016]

Wrong. Being a lightweight fighter gives Thunder superiority in dogfights and it can take on any Gen 3.5 - Gen 4 threats. , .

Actually your wrong completely

The thunder is currently are (block 1 and 2) not optimised for dogfighting at all.

Having no modern hmd or modern hobs missile it will be decimated by the super agile Russian built flanker or even mig29 and soon the upgraded mirage2000/5

All of these fighters are carrying highoffsight bore missles cued to Helmet displays.

THE PAF has this technology in block 52 only with JHMC system

The Thunder currently in a WVR role carrys a PL8 rather modest missle and no HMD

However in a BVR role the AND delivering stand off munitions for ranges upto 75km Thunder is good platform .

CURRENT RANGE OF KLJ 7 is around 80km

The other issue is Thunder has TWR of under 0.95 compare F16 1.3 . The Falcon is 30/35% larger and more powerful overall.

 

[CriticalThought]

Actually your wrong completely

The thunder is currently are (block 1 and 2) not optimised for dogfighting at all.

Having no modern hmd or modern hobs missile it will be decimated by the super agile Russian built flanker or even mig29 and soon the upgraded mirage2000/5

All of these fighters are carrying highoffsight bore missles cued to Helmet displays.

THE PAF has this technology in block 52 only with JHMC system

The Thunder currently in a WVR role carrys a PL8 rather modest missle as no HMD

However in a BVR role the AND delivering stand off munitions for ranges upto 75km no issue at all.

CURRENT RANGE OF KLJ 7 is around 80km

I think we have had this discussion a while ago. Just because SU-30 is carrying HOBS missile doesn't mean it can get into a position where it can make a kill. We know how super agile it us, and how to turn it into a pregnant yak. Now before someone bans you again for detailing the thread, Don't!

 

[Centurion2016]

I think we have had this discussion a while ago. Just because SU-30 is carrying HOBS missile doesn't mean it can get into a position where it can make a kill. We know how super agile it us, and how to turn it into a pregnant yak. Now before someone bans you again for detailing the thread, Don't!

Banning some one for making a valid point will not change the obvious weakness in thunder.

Every fighter in the world in 2017 that is a serious dogfighter carrys a HOBS missles cued to HMD

F16 & f18 = JHMC with aim 9x
Mirage2000/5 MICA/TOPOWL
SU30 /Mig29 = Zsh5 with R73
Elbit Dash 5 = On Israeli F16/F15 & Tejas mk1a
Typhoon = HMSS & aim9x
Gripen = Cobra HMS with aim9x

This is a MUST and something PAF will need to dd to THUNDER to make it worthy opponent

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I suppose the debate and comparisons will never end , and that is not what interests most Pakistanis at present

The aquisition , and ability to pick up an adversary by the radar (HOBS) etc is just one aspects of an engagement but that typically comes into play in certain scenarios

The main argument that most Pakistani Airforce supporters will make is that back in 1990 we were not even shape to field 30-40 planes with certain level of assurance due to lack of planes, the HOBS or similar items were a Luxury discussion

However now we are actually in a position to be engaged in conevrsations about Advance enhancements in fighter planes

The so called HOBS field of sight depends on the quality of the radar and obviously various visual aids that have become popular in last 10-15 years. In due time I am sure very comparable solutions would be present

If is what meassures the skill of a pilot then I am afraid you have over simplified the dog fight to a very simplistic assumption


The image shown so beautifully , is only possible to visualize this in a picture , in real life the planes come / touch and go in milisecond (blink of en eye) and no pilot wants to just press the missile launch button for sake of firing a missile unless they really know what they are doing

The battle field changes every milisecond , and any number of planned manuevers can kick in , and unlimited number of scenarios can occur.

A dumb *** pilot may empty all their silors in one engagement and then he would be flying empty with no missiles on board

Surely you don't think the fighter jets are flying with Unlimited Ammo like in Video games


Now here is another question , if you are planning to eat Mangoes , is it not appropriate that first you grow an orchad of trees , which will bear you proper fruit

Or perhaps Trees are unnecessary


The image shown above has 1:100,000 chance of happening in a real engagement the two jets will come at a certain predictable angle and then will do a dance of Tango and then one will break and then one pilot will use their missile at exactly the right angle .... in a turn as shown in image

YEAH right ....

When you are up in air .... Provided you are carrying a Live MISSILE !!!! You got a equal chance to take out the other pilot

Not sure about your bore or no bore , one thing is for sure we got more higher quality Missiles then we had in 1980

 

[CriticalThought]

Well I suppose the debate and comparisons will never end , and that is not what interests most Pakistanis at present

The aquisition , and ability to pick up an adversary by the radar (HOBS) etc is just one aspects of an engagement but that typically comes into play in certain scenarios

The main argument that most Pakistani Airforce supporters will make is that back in 1990 we were not even shape to field 30-40 planes with certain level of assurance due to lack of planes, the HOBS or similar items were a Luxury discussion

However now we are actually in a position to be engaged in conevrsations about Advance enhancements in fighter planes

The so called HOBS field of sight depends on the quality of the radar and obviously various visual aids that have become popular in last 10-15 years. In due time I am sure very comparable solutions would be present

If is what meassures the skill of a pilot then I am afraid you have over simplified the dog fight to a very simplistic assumption


The image shown so beautifully , is only possible to visualize this in a picture , in real life the planes come / touch and go in milisecond (blink of en eye) and no pilot wants to just press the missile launch button for sake of firing a missile unless they really know what they are doing

The battle field changes every milisecond , and any number of planned manuevers can kick in , and unlimited number of scenarios can occur.

A dumb *** pilot may empty all their silors in one engagement and then he would be flying empty with no missiles on board

Surely you don't think the fighter jets are flying with Unlimited Ammo like in Video games


Now here is another question , if you are planning to eat Mangoes , is it not appropriate that first you grow an orchad of trees , which will bear you proper fruit

Or perhaps Trees are unnecessary


The image shown above has 1:100,000 chance of happening in a real engagement the two jets will come at a certain predictable angle and then will do a dance of Tango and then one will break and then one pilot will use their missile at exactly the right angle .... in a turn as shown in image

YEAH right ....

When you are up in air .... Provided you are carrying a Live MISSILE !!!! You got a equal chance to take out the other pilot

@Centurion2016 read this post. You failed to answer how SU-30 will get into an advantageous position to be able to actually use those HOBS?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I recall the first time when I heard about the JF17 Program it was quite a ambitious program and goal. I was quite keen to see how will PAKISTAN coup with rigorous requirement of developing a fully functional Fighter Jet with collaboration with China.

Because prior to it's conception we only had moderate success with the Super Mushhaq and K-8 platform which our engineers were gradually mastering. The Mirage program for modernization was under the table and no one quite understool the level of workmanship we were doing under the hood with Mirage.

So almost every one was suprised that we managed to come up with the first prototye flying so quickly and that platform was quickly moved into Serial Production after 2-3 years of refinement and adjustments

The AL Khalid Tank's successful launch from Pakistani manufacturing facilities was also a feat we achieved but it was a different beast compared to making a fully functional complex machine like JF17 Thunder which took the best elements of the F16 the agility and dependability and then incorporated more advance Avionics package and faster of every thing you can imagine.

Even today Next generation Avionics package is due with Block 3 Thunder and with even more technological advancement planned with Arrival of Enhanced engine and Weapons selection mode.

Earlier this year 2017 We did saw the lauch of 2 Seat JF17 Thunder

The 2 Seat Varient certainly enhances our functional capabilities in Air as the 2 Pilot Solution allows the second officer at back to engage ground targets and help the main pilot with input coming in from various system for more complex operation in Air.

Also the 2 Seater versions enable the Ace pilots to take their collegues up in air and give them active lessons for training purpose and share valuable skill and knowledge

Another less mentioned fact about the JF17 Thunder is the constant presence in World Aviation Shows

• France (Europe)
  
• UK (Europe)
• Turkey (Euro-Asia)
  
• China (Asia)
  
• UAE (Asia)

• Pakistan (Asia )

KAMRA Aviation , was making a name for itself being present in Prominent shows and all the efforts and planning resulted in Inital orders for the Thunder with external clients

Another honor went Thunder's way when it escorted the Plane for Chinese Head of state
The picture really summerized how far the JF17 Thunder program has come !!!!

A testiment to Pakistan - Chinese , collaboration between two neighbouring countries
And surely shows what a Promominent role the Thunders perform on a Day to Day

This did not happen in a day it took lot of planning and alot of dedicated people some of whome may have dedicated best part of their lives to help bring the Thunder from conceptual design to reality

That is why the 100th makes it all more special !!! We have finally arrived at the door step of a small mile stone

And, the Turkish delegation from TAI was also amazed seeing the capabilities of Pak boys!!!

Well I suppose the debate and comparisons will never end , and that is not what interests most Pakistanis at present

The aquisition , and ability to pick up an adversary by the radar (HOBS) etc is just one aspects of an engagement but that typically comes into play in certain scenarios

The main argument that most Pakistani Airforce supporters will make is that back in 1990 we were not even shape to field 30-40 planes with certain level of assurance due to lack of planes, the HOBS or similar items were a Luxury discussion

However now we are actually in a position to be engaged in conevrsations about Advance enhancements in fighter planes

The so called HOBS field of sight depends on the quality of the radar and obviously various visual aids that have become popular in last 10-15 years. In due time I am sure very comparable solutions would be present

If is what meassures the skill of a pilot then I am afraid you have over simplified the dog fight to a very simplistic assumption


The image shown so beautifully , is only possible to visualize this in a picture , in real life the planes come / touch and go in milisecond (blink of en eye) and no pilot wants to just press the missile launch button for sake of firing a missile unless they really know what they are doing

The battle field changes every milisecond , and any number of planned manuevers can kick in , and unlimited number of scenarios can occur.

A dumb *** pilot may empty all their silors in one engagement and then he would be flying empty with no missiles on board

Surely you don't think the fighter jets are flying with Unlimited Ammo like in Video games


Now here is another question , if you are planning to eat Mangoes , is it not appropriate that first you grow an orchad of trees , which will bear you proper fruit

Or perhaps Trees are unnecessary


The image shown above has 1:100,000 chance of happening in a real engagement the two jets will come at a certain predictable angle and then will do a dance of Tango and then one will break and then one pilot will use their missile at exactly the right angle .... in a turn as shown in image

YEAH right ....

When you are up in air .... Provided you are carrying a Live MISSILE !!!! You got a equal chance to take out the other pilot

Not sure about your bore or no bore , one thing is for sure we got more higher quality Missiles then we had in 1980

However, some folks take the safest route - land their birds on the enemy airfield!!!! Or, try to flee away in tandem!!!!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well it all comes down to What we got on the Thunder

A capable Missile platform and very versatile with a pretty good Radar , as attested by various Technical people on Pakistan's side.

So anyway we look at it

We have 100 more defenders , up in air armed to Teeth with Superior quality Missiles

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Now that Syria is getting wrapped up, America is shifting its full focus to Afghanistan.

Will Kim the fat-boy let them?????

 

[CriticalThought]

Will Kim the fat-boy let them?????

There is no active engagement going on.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

There is no active engagement going on.

But, enough for us folks on the west coast....

 

[CriticalThought]

But, enough for us folks on the west coast....

It doesn't stop them from turning their full attention to Afghanistan.