Church denies funeral to Priyanka Chopra’s grandmother

[Bitter Melon]

Re-read what you quoted in BOLD. Where does it imply that resurrection of human will be in ’same' earthly body?

You quoted "When we will be raised, we will be like him for we will be able to see him like He is." To see Jesus like He is, does not equate to 'have earthly body' like Jesus did. For Christians, Jesus was God. He raised himself from dead on his own. We are human. We won't raise up on our own. We will be given a new body. I quoted this to you from Bible. You cant deny it.

Bible.org took two different quotes from different places to narrate their own version. Who says bible.org is the ultimate truth. You have yet to provide me concrete verse. Dont come up with such phrases where two three different verses are joined out of context to build a narrative.

Regarding your answer on Janeu, you know you are fooling us. Please dont misquote me. I didnt say that only Brahmins can wear janeu. I said can a hindu allow 'anyone' to wear Janeu. Big difference.

Its pretty well known that janeu is a sanskar. Nobody can just wear it like that!

Secondly, your answer on Shamshan Ghat is also wind. We all know pretty well, nobody can just bury or cremate anybody in a Shamshan Ghat. In your locality there must be just a chowkidaar to look after such Ghats. In other places proper rules are followed.

Secondly, cremating someone is not equal to burying someone. When you cremate someone, everything is gone up in the air. When you bury someone, a portion of prime land is given up. At a time, when and is at such a premium, you expect certain community of a church to give up their land to bury someone who is not with them.

If they start following your rule, there would be no land left for original members of that church. Do you know there is a big scarcity of burial land in Kerala? Do you even know about the price people have to shell for getting such burial ground.

All the quotes mentioned says they will be just like Jesus raised from the dead. Which is taken to mean that they will be raised from the dead just like Jesus was. If you know why Jesus is called the living God by Christians then you would know that him being able to retain his earthly body while ascending the heavens is of paramount importance to the Christian belief. Jesus promises them they will be sons of God just like he was. So all those verses speak of the same. If Jesus was raised to the heavens in a spirit body or just as a soul or in a new body then he would no more be the God of the Christians.

Now, it no where quotes in the Bible that they will be given a new body. It says a spiritual body in that one verse, which is taken to mean that it will be a body involved only in matters of worship rather than secular concerns of the world such as work, marriage, raising children. First understand what these terms mean in each culture and how they are interpreted.

You can have your beliefs but the fact of the matter is no church on earth as of now will agree with you except perhaps the Unitarian Church, that too not because the Unitarian Church agrees with you, but rather they don't want to disagree with anyone.

Entirety of Christianity is based on the way West interpreted the Bible and put it together. All the denominations and sects in Christianity are born of divisions and disagreements within the Western cultural framework. Not a single Indian origin sect or denomination with an Indian interpretation of the Bible exists. By Indian interpretation it would be Hindu interpretation because Indian culture is nothing but Hindu culture.

Now you compound stupidity by saying no non-Hindu can wear a Janeu just like that when the fact of the matter is Parsis also have a thread ceremony and they too wear a Janeu, only at the waist. Instead of being bullheaded you need to provide evidence where anyone has been forbidden from wearing a Janeu and punished for it.

Likewise you asked whether Hindus will allow Muslims and Christians to be cremated in Hindu crematorium to which the answer was a resounding Yes.

Now that all these answers show you for the ignoramus you are, you are shifting the goal post talking about the expense of the land. You should have thought about it before posing that question.

 

[Bitter Melon]

Actually, there are many people with near death experiences who know what happens after death. There have also been thousands of case studies of past life regressions by the Institute of Noetic Sciences.

http://www.noetic.org/research/participate/transformational-stories-seven

 

[Bitter Melon]

Near death is different to actual death.

There are theories on the kind of neurological phenomena that cause it. People report going through tunnels, floating above their body. Some doctors say it is caused by the shutting down of the nervous system. People have had similar experiences going into anesthesia....could it be similar to having vivid dreams I wonder?

I think there are a lot of for and against arguments.

Elon Musk apparently thinks we are just a video game of higher intelligences!

Near death is not all that different from actual death, it is just that they come back from death within a few hours of having been declared dead with no sign of living. As per medical science nervous system is the basis of our consciousness and our mind exists in our brain. So when the nervous system itself shuts down, whose mind was it that was doing the seeing and experiencing?

Elon Musk says what Hindus have been saying for eons. The whole concept of yugas is like a video game, with the level of complexities increasing with each yuga. The player gets to repeat game after game of life with credits and liabilities carried over from previous lives. That is the whole concept of a video game. Entire premises of Hinduism rests on the basis that the universe as it exists is an illusion.

 

[Soulspeek]

Waah bhai.... if I say something, it is my personal interpretation. When you say something, it is solid truth engraved in stone. Dont pass me the bull crap that Hindus dont mind about Yagyopaveet (Janeu) sanskaar. It is allowed only for three upper castes.

http://www.iloveindia.com/indian-traditions/janeu-ceremeony.html
http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/in...sm/yagnopavita-the-sacred-thread-in-hinduism/
http://www.hinduofuniverse.com/hou/religious-threads.html

Dont give me your crap that in your mohalla even dalits do it!!

You are interpreting Bible verses as it suits you. I gave you specific verse which gives point blank statement that a new body will be given. You are bent on interpreting it in your own way. Give me point blank statement stating so or else shut up. Dont give me crap that so and so people in the world believe that.

All the quotes mentioned says they will be just like Jesus raised from the dead. Which is taken to mean that they will be raised from the dead just like Jesus was. If you know why Jesus is called the living God by Christians then you would know that him being able to retain his earthly body while ascending the heavens is of paramount importance to the Christian belief. Jesus promises them they will be sons of God just like he was. So all those verses speak of the same. If Jesus was raised to the heavens in a spirit body or just as a soul or in a new body then he would no more be the God of the Christians.

Now, it no where quotes in the Bible that they will be given a new body. It says a spiritual body in that one verse, which is taken to mean that it will be a body involved only in matters of worship rather than secular concerns of the world such as work, marriage, raising children. First understand what these terms mean in each culture and how they are interpreted.

You can have your beliefs but the fact of the matter is no church on earth as of now will agree with you except perhaps the Unitarian Church, that too not because the Unitarian Church agrees with you, but rather they don't want to disagree with anyone.

Entirety of Christianity is based on the way West interpreted the Bible and put it together. All the denominations and sects in Christianity are born of divisions and disagreements within the Western cultural framework. Not a single Indian origin sect or denomination with an Indian interpretation of the Bible exists. By Indian interpretation it would be Hindu interpretation because Indian culture is nothing but Hindu culture.

Now you compound stupidity by saying no non-Hindu can wear a Janeu just like that when the fact of the matter is Parsis also have a thread ceremony and they too wear a Janeu, only at the waist. Instead of being bullheaded you need to provide evidence where anyone has been forbidden from wearing a Janeu and punished for it.

Likewise you asked whether Hindus will allow Muslims and Christians to be cremated in Hindu crematorium to which the answer was a resounding Yes.

Now that all these answers show you for the ignoramus you are, you are shifting the goal post talking about the expense of the land. You should have thought about it before posing that question.

 

[Bitter Melon]

Process of shutting down ..not completely shut down and rotted and eaten by maggots. Presumably there would still be a few firing neurons and this could be a function of whatever biochemical process is involved in death.

When a person is declared medically dead it is done so on the basis that the breathing and circulation of blood has stopped. Brain death is reported to happen within 5 minutes of stopping of blood supply. There is no neural activity detected by our most sophisticated gadgets available on a dead person.

Actually that's a nice idea. Gives you several chances to get it right. What would be better of course is of you had some memory of what went wrong the last time around. To add the concept of learning from your past mistakes. In video games you carry your learning forward.

Anyway this whole concept of credits and liabilities is to my mind very complex. A kid born to good parents and given a nice life would probably grow up to be a caring person. A kid born in poverty to abusive parents has more chance of turning out to be a murderer.

A lot of character and personality is caused by biochemistry anyway....in today's world a schizophrenic who kills someone would be sent to a mental hospital , a generation ago to the gallows.

Even the most evil person thinks he has very good reasons for what he did. Hitter did not see himself as a monster but as a person who tried to make Germans proud again.

Anyway..I have to go now...so I will let you have the last word...and thanks for an interesting discussion.

You carry your learning forward even here. Your genes carries those memories which is why a lot of things are instinctively known. It is why people have gut feelings. It is also why we carry biological markers of our ancestors.

A kid born to good parents and given a nice life would be equivalent of having earned a lot of credits in past games to be in a position of strength in the next game whereas a person born in poorer circumstances is considered to do so because of poor credits. But each game gives you the chance to improve on your credits and reduce your liabilities. Which is why gamers play the game. If it was all decided at the outset how things are going to be with no chance of improvement why would anyone play the game?

It is not so simple as assuming a killer is a sinner and someone who has not killed is not a sinner. Context, intention, conscious or unconscious act, so many parameters are taken into account. This is not a simplistic black and white world with evil set on one side and good on the other.

Even your biochemistry is a result of your karma. The food you eat, the work you do, the parents you were born to, the genes you inherited, the age and circumstance you live in.

 

[Bitter Melon]

Waah bhai.... if I say something, it is my personal interpretation. When you say something, it is solid truth engraved in stone. Dont pass me the bull crap that Hindus dont mind about Yagyopaveet (Janeu) sanskaar. It is allowed only for three upper castes.

http://www.iloveindia.com/indian-traditions/janeu-ceremeony.html
http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/in...sm/yagnopavita-the-sacred-thread-in-hinduism/
http://www.hinduofuniverse.com/hou/religious-threads.html

Dont give me your crap that in your mohalla even dalits do it!!

Now you are talking about what the tradition was which is different from your earlier question, can others wear it? I said yes. Tell me where it has been prohibited for others to wear it. Quote from these texts that others will be punished on wearing Janeu.

If anything everyone was encouraged by the society to undergo Upanayana in ancient times.

Vedic period texts such as the BaudhāyanaGrihyasutra encouraged all members of society to undergo the upanayana, even shudras.[3][4][5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana

I also told you that you can wear the thread but that it will not be considered as Janeu by Orthodox Hindus. Is it the same as being prohibited from or punished for wearing the Janeu? No, logic dictates it is not.

The last verna, a shudra by definition is a person who is not educated as per Manu Smriti. The samskar of Upanayana is an initiation process for drawing the child towards education. So logically traditionally those who did not study did not undergo the process of Upanayana. This tradition however no longer applies.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ts-make-them-priests/articleshow/49066728.cms

Leave alone Dalits in my mohalla wearing Janeu, Dalits are training to be priests all over India.

You are interpreting Bible verses as it suits you. I gave you specific verse which gives point blank statement that a new body will be given. You are bent on interpreting it in your own way. Give me point blank statement stating so or else shut up. Dont give me crap that so and so people in the world believe that.

I am not interpreting the Bible verses. It is the Church which has interpreted them. I am just informing you of what has been interpreted.

No, you did not give me a verse which states a new body will be given. You gave me a verse which says a spiritual body will be given. Even the videos you post bolster my point rather than yours. Right at the onset in the first video the speaker says it will be a new you and new me, not a different you and a different me. Which means it will be you and your body but repaired and redone with enhanced features. Not a different body. That your body will still be flesh and bones with all the wants and desires of this world, but just incorruptible in the sense that it will not disease or age.

In fact the verse you quoted also states just as much that the new body will be different only in as much as it will not age and die.

So if you are hoping for more handsomer features or hoping to be blond and blue eyed in heaven, please forget it. You will be the same person only for eternity.

 

[Soulspeek]

Dont whitewash the bad deeds of Brahmin supremacists who considered dalit as filth. No matter how much you justify, it is a well known fact that dalits are equal to animals in hindu hirerachy. Its like looking for a straw in someone's eyes when you have a big stick in your own.

Where does the question of punishing someone for tying janeu arises when Dalits are just not allowed to wear it in first place. Brahmins are supposed to tie janeu to students. They themselves make sure that no dalit is given janeu. For heaven's sake, Dait's are not even allowed to get education as per hindu traditions!

When you say that dalits are training for becoming priests, you are just trying to hide the real situation. Just here and there some people like Swami Chinmayanand of Rishikesh etc are trying to make priests out of dalit boys.

It does make one thing very clear. The real situation is far far grimmer. Otherwise there was no need for such reforms. Just open the newspaper of any day. You will see news of dalits being raped, harassed, killed, mutilated for being dalits. I too live in India and have seen such things on the ground. I am not a gullible westerner whom you can befool by showcasing great mysticism if Hindutva.

Dalits are facing worst form of injustice which is worse than even racism since ages.

If you cant understand the videos then its your fault, Not mine.

You must be a fool and balant hater at heart if you believe that we want blue eyes and blonde features on resurrection. If you cant understand spirituality, keep your mouth shut. Concentrate on removing casteism from your people then have the galls to comment on other's religion.

Now you are talking about what the tradition was which is different from your earlier question, can others wear it? I said yes. Tell me where it has been prohibited for others to wear it. Quote from these texts that others will be punished on wearing Janeu.

If anything everyone was encouraged by the society to undergo Upanayana in ancient times.

Vedic period texts such as the BaudhāyanaGrihyasutra encouraged all members of society to undergo the upanayana, even shudras.[3][4][5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana

I also told you that you can wear the thread but that it will not be considered as Janeu by Orthodox Hindus. It is the same as being prohibited from or punished for wearing the Janeu? No, logic dictates it is not.

The last verna, a shudra by definition is a person who is not educated as per Manu Smriti. The samskar of Upanayana is an initiation process for drawing the child towards education. So logically traditionally those who did not study did not undergo the process of Upanayana. This tradition however no longer applies.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ts-make-them-priests/articleshow/49066728.cms

Leave alone Dalits in my mohalla wearing Janeu, Dalits are training to be priests all over India.




I am not interpreting the Bible verses. It is the Church which has interpreted them. I am just informing you of what has been interpreted.

No, you did not give me a verse which states a new body will be given. You gave me a verse which says a spiritual body will be given. Even the videos you post bolster my point rather than yours. Right at the onset in the first video the speaker says it will be a new you and new me, not a different you and a different me. Which means it will be you and your body but repaired and redone with enhanced features. Not a different body. That your body will still be flesh and bones with all the wants and desires of this world, but just incorruptible in the sense that it will not disease or age.

In fact the verse you quoted also states just as much that the new body will be different only in as much as it will not age and die.

So if you are hoping for more handsomer features or hoping to be blond and blue eyed in heaven, please forget it. You will be the same person only for eternity.

 

[Bitter Melon]

Dont whitewash tje bad deeds of Brahmin supremacists who considered dalit as filth. No matter how much you justify, it is a well known fact that dalits are equal to animals in hindu hirerachy. Its like looking for a straw in someone's eyes when you have a big stick in your own.

When you say that dalits are training for becoming priests, you are just trying to hide the real situation. Just here and there some people like Swami Chinmayanand of Rishikesh etc are trying to make priests out of dalit boys.

It does make one thing very clear. The real situation is far far grimmer. Otherwise there was no need for such reforms. Just open the newspaper of any day. You will see news of dalits being raped, harassed, killed, mutilated for being dalits. I too live in India and have seen such things on the ground. I am not a gullible westerner whom you can befool by showcasing great mysticism if Hindutva.

Dalits are facing worst form of injustice which is worse than even racism since ages.

If you cant understand the videos then its your fault, Not mine.

Ya of course let us look at the grim reality of India and poor Dalits.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-murders-rose-to-744/articleshow/49488994.cms

The highest number of Dalit women raped was 2,233 in year 2014. That makes it a rape rate of 1.3 for every 100,000 considering SC population was 166,635,700 as per the 2001 census. At 1.3 rape rate against Dalits, it is comparable to extremely low crime countries like Japan. This is even lesser than the Indian national average rape rate of 1.8.

This is the reality of Hindutva and India, not the propaganda you get fed by the missionaries and your church.

 

[Soulspeek]

Does discrimination only mean 'Rape'? Remove casteism, then come to me with moral authority.

Ya of course let us look at the grim reality of India and poor Dalits.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-murders-rose-to-744/articleshow/49488994.cms

The highest number of Dalit women raped was 2,233 in year 2014. That makes it a rape rate of 1.3 for every 100,000 considering SC population was 166,635,700 as per the 2001 census. At 1.3 rape rate our Dalits have a rape rate comparable to extremely low crime countries like Japan. This is even lesser than the Indian national average rape rate of 1.8.

This is the reality of Hindutva and India, not the propaganda you get fed by the missionaries and your church.

 

[Bitter Melon]

Does discrimination only mean 'Rape'?

Take any other crime and compare it to the rest of the world. Is it not how you defined the state of Dalits in India: "raped, harassed, killed, mutilated for being dalits."

 

[Soulspeek]

Did you even bother to read the TOI link you provided yourself?

I am quoting your own source here:

" According to statistics compiled by the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB), crimes against SCs rose to 47,064 in 2014 from 39,408 in 2013. In 2012 there were 33,655 crimes against dalits, about the same as in 2011.

In fact, the rate of such crimes against SCs surpassed the national average in as many as 10 states in 2013 and 2014. The rate of crime is the number of crimes reported against SCs per one lakh of their population. In 2014, the rate of crime against dalits was 23.4 and in 2013 it was 19.57 "

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Cri...e-245-in-last-decade/articleshow/39904583.cms
Crimes against dalits rise 245% in last decade

Take any other crime and compare it to the rest of the world. Is it not how you defined the state of Dalits in India: "raped, harassed, killed, mutilated for being dalits."

 

[Bitter Melon]

Did you even bother to read the TOI link you provided yourself?

I am quoting your own source here:

" According to statistics compiled by the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB), crimes against SCs rose to 47,064 in 2014 from 39,408 in 2013. In 2012 there were 33,655 crimes against dalits, about the same as in 2011.

In fact, the rate of such crimes against SCs surpassed the national average in as many as 10 states in 2013 and 2014. The rate of crime is the number of crimes reported against SCs per one lakh of their population. In 2014, the rate of crime against dalits was 23.4 and in 2013 it was 19.57 "

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Cri...e-245-in-last-decade/articleshow/39904583.cms
Crimes against dalits rise 245% in last decade

Yes, I did. That is totalling of all crimes committed against Dalits which may include even things like theft and was already taken into account in the chart I posted.

Here compare those numbers with the total crime of all countries. The crimes against Dalits whose population is 10 greater than all Scandinavian countries combined is lesser than even total crimes committed in Norway by 8 times.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Total-crimes

 

[Soulspeek]

Dont compare with scandavian or other western countries. Their culture is decadent. Talk about India and the status of Dalits in comparison to higher caste Hindus.

Moreover sexual depravity is prevalent in west. Here we are not just talking about rapes but general apartheid towards dalits. No country in the world does that to its own citizens. It is comparable to maybe what Pakistan does to its Ahmediyya population.

Yes, I did. That is totalling of all crimes committed against Dalits which may include even things like theft and was already taken into account in the chart I posted.

Here compare those numbers with the total crime of all countries. The crimes against Dalits whose population is 10 greater than all Scandinavian countries combined is lesser than even total crimes committed in Norway by 8 times.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Total-crimes

 

[Marxist]

'Awful,' Says Priyanka Chopra About Church's Refusal to Bury Grandmother

An unkept and neglected graveyard in Kerala's famous Kumarakom is where actress Priyanka Chopra's grandmother Mary John Akhouri had to be buried on Sunday, 45 kms away from her home church. It was against her last wish of wanting to be buried at the same church as she was baptised in - which her father had helped to design. This is something which the grieving family is yet to come to terms with.

"The act of church was awful. But we should not concentrate on it. Rather we should look that we lost a family member," said Priyanka Chopra, speaking to ANI in Patna.

The church refused to bury Mrs Akhouri, citing her marriage to a Hindu as a major impediment and that according to rules, one has to apply for re-membership in written, which the family didn't.

Talking to NDTV, Mrs Akhouri's cousin Elias Kavalappara said, "She had confessed and even taken communion in this church two years back. I don't see any reason why she should be denied her last wish. I am not going to take this lying down. This is the 21st century, not some dark age."

Another family member, George, said, "Priyanka was raised by this grandmother. The two were very close."

Inside the St John's Attamangalam church, a rare painting by Raja Ravi Varma himself is one of its prized possessions. It was gifted by Mrs Akhouri's family. But she couldn't find a place to rest beside her father, in the church cemetery.

Church trustee Abraham PV told NDTV, "We could not bury her because after her marriage she lived like a non Christian - like a Hindu. After that she never came back to join us again. If she had given us a petition while she was alive, we would have done everything we could but we can't help in this after her death."

However, family members say she didn't stop going to church after marriage.

Mary John Akhouri died on June 3. She was 93.

Priyanka Chopra posted this photo on Instagram in memory of her grandmother.

http://movies.ndtv.com/bollywood/aw...t-churchs-refusal-to-bury-grandmother-1417316

 

[Bitter Melon]

Dont compare with scandavian or other western countries. Their culture is decadent. Talk about India and the status of Dalits in comparison to higher caste Hindus.

Moreover sexual depravity is prevalent in west. Here we are not just talking about rapes but general apartheid towards dalits. No country in the world does that to its own citizens. It is comparable to maybe what Pakistan does to its Ahmediyya population.

Did you not say that Dalits in India faced worse discrimination and harassment than racism. So if racist countries (not Norway) have a higher rate of crime and incarceration than India does it not prove your statement wrong? Was the stats only about rape in decadent countries?

So you admit that Hindutva India is not decadent and neither crime prone as Christian and Islamic countries? You want a higher set of standards for Hindutva India while at the same time chest beating about discrimination of its people to the rest of the world?

Now we don't have an Atrocities Against Upper Caste Act in India, so stats about crimes against upper caste is not available. But still look at the total crimes committed in India even in 2002 as per the link given by me. It is 1.72 million. We can safely say crime reporting has increased since 2002 in India so the figure must be even more.

Even sticking with crime numbers of 2002, only 47,000 crimes in total are committed against Dalits out of a total of 1.8 million crimes. Is that not pretty much insignificant? Dalits make up 16% of India's population, but only 47,000 out of 1.8 million crimes is directed against them. The rest 1.75 million crimes are committed against the rest of Indians.

Do you have even stats for crimes against Ahmediya in Pakistan for comparison with Dalits in India?

'Awful,' Says Priyanka Chopra About Church's Refusal to Bury Grandmother

An unkept and neglected graveyard in Kerala's famous Kumarakom is where actress Priyanka Chopra's grandmother Mary John Akhouri had to be buried on Sunday, 45 kms away from her home church. It was against her last wish of wanting to be buried at the same church as she was baptised in - which her father had helped to design. This is something which the grieving family is yet to come to terms with.

"The act of church was awful. But we should not concentrate on it. Rather we should look that we lost a family member," said Priyanka Chopra, speaking to ANI in Patna.

The church refused to bury Mrs Akhouri, citing her marriage to a Hindu as a major impediment and that according to rules, one has to apply for re-membership in written, which the family didn't.

Talking to NDTV, Mrs Akhouri's cousin Elias Kavalappara said, "She had confessed and even taken communion in this church two years back. I don't see any reason why she should be denied her last wish. I am not going to take this lying down. This is the 21st century, not some dark age."

Another family member, George, said, "Priyanka was raised by this grandmother. The two were very close."

Inside the St John's Attamangalam church, a rare painting by Raja Ravi Varma himself is one of its prized possessions. It was gifted by Mrs Akhouri's family. But she couldn't find a place to rest beside her father, in the church cemetery.

Church trustee Abraham PV told NDTV, "We could not bury her because after her marriage she lived like a non Christian - like a Hindu. After that she never came back to join us again. If she had given us a petition while she was alive, we would have done everything we could but we can't help in this after her death."

However, family members say she didn't stop going to church after marriage.

Mary John Akhouri died on June 3. She was 93.

Priyanka Chopra posted this photo on Instagram in memory of her grandmother.

http://movies.ndtv.com/bollywood/aw...t-churchs-refusal-to-bury-grandmother-1417316

Pious secular Christians of kerala who is a role model for all

Christians are the most bigoted people in India and have always been. Only because they spoke English and carried on with a Western lifestyle the rest of India was fooled into thinking they were "Modern" people.