China is building its second carrier

[kuge]

If you are not an aircraft carrier expert, then how can you legitimately point out there are problems ? By the way, it is not 'infrastructure' but 'island'. You are too lazy to do even basic research and have the gall to call out the ship's problems ?

i think he is saying that AC is poorly designed that even an amateur recognizes that...

 

[gambit]

i think he is saying that AC is poorly designed that even an amateur recognizes that...

Poorly designed ? Based upon what criteria ? The ship was originally designed for helos so however its layout, it must have been well enough for that purpose. Since the ship was re-purposed for fixed wings, we can say that the original design maybe inadequate for fixed wings aviation, but that is as far as we can go. If the ship serves the INS well enough, the ship is good enough.

 

[Keel]

Poorly designed ? Based upon what criteria ? The ship was originally designed for helos so however its layout, it must have been well enough for that purpose. Since the ship was re-purposed for fixed wings, we can say that the original design maybe inadequate for fixed wings aviation, but that is as far as we can go. If the ship serves the INS well enough, the ship is good enough.

You are not an expert in A/C designs
You are wrong

I's because Ruski's designed it as a heli carrying cruiser.When they turned it to an AC;they rebuilt the flight deck.In the process the island got near the center of the carrier.Overall Vikramaditya is 10% larger than the original design.If you see Liaoning and Vikramaditya in picture you will understand.

1.Liaoning
View attachment 206940

2.Vikramaditya
View attachment 206941

3.kiev class

The original Soviet Admiral Gorshkov was designed to carry both: helicopters and fighter jets

Aircraft carried: 12 Yak-38M fighter aircraft
20 Kamov Ka-25 or Kamov Ka-27helicopters

Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the edit part of my post #41 above also PLUS the other features that the Indian A/C
has failed to provide other than the weird design of the control tower that @Nan Yang has pointed out pic by pic

 

[Keel]

Tower = Island.

There is a real science behind the island's deck location. One of them is the turbulence created by the island that WILL affect air operations. Other considerations are the type of air operation, which produces what kind of deck movements, which affect where the island could/should be to optimize these movements on limited real estate.

Here is a 1977 USN paper on carrier deck design...

https://www.cna.org/sites/default/files/research/0203320000.pdf

It is old but still very interesting and will provide the casual reader with enough information to point out more complex issues.

BS and somewhat correct in the second statement within the context of the control tower's position on the deck of the Indian A/C

Referring to your attached pdf link, ALL the draft drawings of the Towers are designed to install flush to the edge of the starboard or port side

Most if not all American A/Cs carry both helicopters and fighter jets on board

You are a fanatic American fanboy. So if American designs are the best in the world then the design of the refurbished Indian A/C is second rated.

As an amateur @Nan Yang he is correct
He never claims to be "expert" or " professional". He should not be embarrassed even there is anything wrong but no, he is correct

So why the Indian A/C which is refurbished from Soviet's Admiral Gorshkov has such a strange Control Tower installation?

Here is the answer:

Art print Painting

 

[sicsheep]

Poorly designed ? Based upon what criteria ? The ship was originally designed for helos so however its layout, it must have been well enough for that purpose. Since the ship was re-purposed for fixed wings, we can say that the original design maybe inadequate for fixed wings aviation, but that is as far as we can go. If the ship serves the INS well enough, the ship is good enough.

LOL no one said it wasnt good enough for Indian Navy, but here are some fact,
1, Russia scrapped all but one Keiv Class. (the one being Vikjramaditya), while kept the Kuznetsov.
2, We could have refitted the Minsk (also Kiev Class), but we chose not to.
India was better off getting the USS Kitty Hawk while it was offered. but instead it decided to keep the Vikjramaditya deal and save Mikoyan.

 

[seven7seven]

Let's be honest, Liaoning isn't gonna make US lose too much sleep compared to what they have, but it's still miles better than anything India have, especially when it gets full complement of J-15s. But Liaoning was always meant to be for training and gaining experience to build bigger and better carriers. It will take China a long time before they build anything that competes directly with US but they will get there.

 

[gambit]

BS and somewhat correct in the second statement within the context of the control tower's position on the deck of the Indian A/C

What I gave you was a technically neutral source to inform, but if you want to turn it into some kind of attack on you, you asked for the fight, kid...

Referring to your attached pdf link, ALL the draft drawings of the Towers are designed to install flush to the edge of the starboard or port side

Most if not all American A/Cs carry both helicopters and fighter jets on board

Bullshit...Helos on US carriers are support, not primary air operators like the specifically designed helo carriers, as they have been around for decades.

You are a fanatic American fanboy. So if American designs are the best in the world then the design of the refurbished Indian A/C is second rated.

That does not mean the Russian design -- Baku -- was somehow problematic. If I am as much the 'fanatic' as you think I am, then I should have ragged on the Russian ship from the start, instead, I was willing to give the Russians the benefit of the doubt on where they have the island was based upon their own analysis from their own needs. If the Indians deemed that layout good enough for their needs, then the ship is good.

As an amateur @Nan Yang he is correct

Of course he is 'correct'. For you Chinese, anyone who sucks up to you can never be wrong.

You are not an expert in A/C designs
You are wrong

And you are ? Have you ever been in the military, kid ?

The original Soviet Admiral Gorshkov was designed to carry both: helicopters and fighter jets

Aircraft carried: 12 Yak-38M fighter aircraft
20 Kamov Ka-25 or Kamov Ka-27helicopters

Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the edit part of my post #41 above also PLUS the other features that the Indian A/C
has failed to provide other than the weird design of the control tower that @Nan Yang has pointed out pic by pic

And your lack of military experience, let alone navy experience, reveals the failure in observation: More helos than fixed wings aircrafts, which should clue you in what is the main type of air operations the ship was originally designed for.

Yeah...Like we are supposed to take seriously the criticisms from a bunch of guys whose experience in the water came from ferry rides ?

 

[Keel]

@seven7seven

Nobody from the Chinese community or friends of are being dishonest in over-claiming the capabiliies of Liaoning or the work-in-progress second aircraft carriers

It has been stated very clearly CV Liaoning is for tests and training all along
We are not in a position to challenge yet the USN vessel for vessel

The counter-exchanges are levelled @vsdave2302 primarily and @gambit

Nut carving from an olive pit

What I gave you was a technically neutral source to inform, but if you want to turn it into some kind of attack on you, you asked for the fight, kid...

no body wants to fight where your reasoning is so poor
The evidence in my favour are ALREADY there

Bullshit...Helos on US carriers are support, not primary air operators like the specifically designed helo carriers, as they have been around for decades.

where did I say the US A/Cs have not been around for decades?

That does not mean the Russian design -- Baku -- was somehow problematic. If I am as much the 'fanatic' as you think I am, then I should have ragged on the Russian ship from the start, instead, I was willing to give the Russians the benefit of the doubt on where they have the island was based upon their own analysis from their own needs. If the Indians deemed that layout good enough for their needs, then the ship is good.

poor comeback
good for the use by the Indians is not equivalent to good design of aircraft carriers
Now alas you admit the design is problematic after you failed to present valid arguments
So the design is substandard

Of course he is 'correct'. For you Chinese, anyone who sucks up to you can never be wrong.

I look for reasons in presentations
You look for nationalities

And you are ? Have you ever been in the military, kid ?

I should be pretty ashamed to mention about the "military experience" that you may have with such poor presentation of arguments and logic if I were you

And your lack of military experience, let alone navy experience, reveals the failure in observation: More helos than fixed wings aircrafts, which should clue you in what is the main type of air operations the ship was originally designed for.

Yeah...Like we are supposed to take seriously the criticisms from a bunch of guys whose experience in the water came from ferry rides ?

You dont have any experience in A/C design but you like to bluff

You are just as blank as we amateurs are in the concepts plus you are rusty in logical analysis

What is there to brag about when you dont even read thoroughly about the material presented by yourself and you are making yourself a joke when the material contained in your link are used to unveil your poor understanding and you absence of experience in basic vessel designs

Nut Carving

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Let's be honest, Liaoning isn't gonna make US lose too much sleep compared to what they have, but it's still miles better than anything India have, especially when it gets full complement of J-15s. But Liaoning was always meant to be for training and gaining experience to build bigger and better carriers. It will take China a long time before they build anything that competes directly with US but they will get there.

I put my bet that the next release of Laoning picture will be full of surprise, it's been a while we haven't have any new from it...I will laugh my a$$ out if it upgrade to incorporate the EMAL catapult + nuclear reactor

 

[Arthur]

You are not an expert in A/C designs
You are wrong




The original Soviet Admiral Gorshkov was designed to carry both: helicopters and fighter jets

Aircraft carried: 12 Yak-38M fighter aircraft
20 Kamov Ka-25 or Kamov Ka-27helicopters

Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the edit part of my post #41 above also PLUS the other features that the Indian A/C
has failed to provide other than the weird design of the control tower that @Nan Yang has pointed out pic by pic

Sorry,my bad.I thought as those aircrafts are VTOL,their take off or landings,doesn't change the thing it's actually an heli carrier.Even USN 's Heli carriers can launch VTOL aircraft.but that's not my point anyway.My point was to show that,why Vikramaditya's flight deck is so cramped and the odd island configuration!!and yes i saw Nan Yan's post too.When it was a cruiser,the island was on the edge but when they added the ski jump,it was needed to balance the additional weight.To do that they just expanded the deck around the edges,That's why it looks like,the island is in the middle.Actually It's a design limitation.when you modify a design;desigend to serve a specific purpose,to serve another purpose;it's quite normal to grow limitations.I don't know how IN will work around those limitations though.

 

[Nan Yang]

So why the Indian A/C which is refurbished from Soviet's Admiral Gorshkov has such a strange Control Tower installation?

Here is the answer:

I get it. They added more space on the starboard side to balance the additional deck on the other side so it won't capsize....right? He he he..... you just found out another flaw. Thanks.

So when you add up all the additional weight, the take off ramp, the additional deck space, the arrestor equipment.... that's alot of weight that was not part of the original design.

 

[jhungary]

You are not an expert in A/C designs
You are wrong




The original Soviet Admiral Gorshkov was designed to carry both: helicopters and fighter jets

Aircraft carried: 12 Yak-38M fighter aircraft
20 Kamov Ka-25 or Kamov Ka-27helicopters

Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the edit part of my post #41 above also PLUS the other features that the Indian A/C
has failed to provide other than the weird design of the control tower that @Nan Yang has pointed out pic by pic

dude, what da man said is correct the ships was originally designed for VTOL operation, not for STOVL jet. YAK 38 m is more VTOL than the harrier can ever get.

If they have to change it to launch Mig29, then they also change the ship from a VTOL craft to STOVL craft operation.

You can only call it a bad design if they build like that to support STOVL aviation. Otherwise it was an inadequdate design for a different purpose not a bad design for specific purpose.

 

[Nan Yang]

Kid, the reason you Chinese and your suck ups criticize the Vik is because it is an Indian ship, not because you guys have any real understanding of the subject. Your man was too lazy to even do basic research on the terminologies involved -- infrastructure instead of the more correct superstructure or island -- and he criticized how the Indians used the ship ? If the Russians had modded the ship from helo into fixed wings operations and kept it to themselves, you guys would have praised the Russians, not criticize its modifications.

So do us all a favor and stop the pretense. At least I have the intellectual honesty and praise the original owners in spite of our countries' political differences.

Someone mentioned control tower.

 

[Keel]

@Keel make it 6

@Horus
Can you please check the above negative ratings on me ?
I want to have the case registered!
All of them from the same person!
It is a blatant abuse.
Thank you!

 

[jhungary]

@Horus
Can you please check the above negative ratings on me ?
I want to have the case registered!
All of them from the same person!
It is a blatant abuse.
Thank you!

lol check it, as I said, if you have a problem with the negative rating I give, do take it with the management.

you insult people, mostly me, and you call me a loser,crazy or what not, and it is my problem to give you a negative rating?

Its very easy not to get a negative rating, that is to NOT INSULT OTHER