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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

OK what is the super cruise you can achieve with this engine? And what is solution you found to reduce oil leakage which happens like tons with these 4gen engines ? There are lots of issues to be sorted out with engine and nozzles to reduce heat thus RCS or else heat seeking missiles will we have free run like they have with 4th Gen fighters.

Guys let's wait for final configuration let's not jump into the conclusion .
Supercruise is a capability that is going to come later with WS-15 engine. WS-10B is the interim solution. Do you have a source for this "oil leakage" or are you speculating again? From what are you basing your "there are lots of issues to be sorted out with engine and nozzles" on?
 
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Heh, if it isn't the biggest fail himself. First you do not know the requirement or threshold on the RCS return set out by the J-20 program. Second, canards being considered for half a dozen of low observable designs clearly indicate that it is not mutually exclusive, otherwise it would not be considered in the first place.
Heh, if it is not still the fail from your part.

First of all, there is a threshold: The clutter rejection threshold.

Every radar system have it. Either reject it, or your system is overwhelmed with returns. From this perspective, every low radar observable design should have the clutter region as target, else it could not call itself low radar observable. As radar processing technology progresses, the lower the clutter rejection threshold, which will make it increasingly difficult for any design to match its RCS to the newer and lower threshold.

Second,

I never said canards must be excluded. Canards are flight control surfaces that are based on design.

The rules for a low radar observable design are control of:

- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

All low radar observable designs conforms to those rules to varying degrees, so just because newer conceptual designs may have canards, that does not mean current designs conforms to those rules to the same degrees as newer designs. All three rules are equally important and works in concert.

For example...As each flight control surface is a radiator, new conceptual designs may have materials that fully absorb all impinging radar signals, so while the newer design may have more radiators than current designs, the newer materials obeys rule three (modes of radiation) to such a degree that the newer design can be less obedient to rules one and two.

Do you how all of this relate and affects each other ?

I explained all of this a long time ago, as in yrs ago when I first came on this forum. Were you guys asleep in class ?

How come I never hear you pointing out the Pak Fa's airfoil?
It's basically a canard attached a little further back on the fuselage.

RawzYlb.jpg

RawzYlb.jpg
Because you were asleep in class ?

The rules for designing a low radar observable body are control of:

- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

So just because one design have more radiators than the next, that does not automatically make it less 'stealthy' than its competitors.

We have one design with a single vertical stab: F-16.

Then we have another design with twin vertical stab: F15.

So under the above three rules, both the F-15 and F-16 are less obedient to rule two: Control of array of radiators.

That is because all the vertical stabs create the dreaded 90 deg corner reflectors.

But if the twin vertical stabs are canted, like the F-18 or F-117 or F-22, the corner reflectors are still there, just not 90 deg. So while the F-18, F-117, and F-22 are less obedient than the F-16 for rule one, the twin canted vertical stabs does not create the dreaded 90 deg corner reflectors like the F-16 does -- all the time. That mean the F-18, F-117, and F-22 are more obedient to rule two than the F-16, hence, despite having more radiators in the tail section, the F-18, F-117, and F-22 are more 'stealthy' than the F-16 in that area.

Do you see how the three rules relate and affects each other ?

For the PAK's large and actuating leading edges, their movements throughout flight and maneuvers falls under rule two: Control of array of radiators.

That is because as they move, they changes their orientation to other structures nearby. The word 'array' mean arrangement and alignment in relation. In a complex body like an aircraft, arrays of radiators are constantly in flux to many degrees. A radiator, like a fin, maybe visible to the seeking radar one second but as the aircraft maneuver, the fin disappeared from radar view, therefore its arrangement to other nearby structures momentarily does not exist -- according to radar view.

I explained all of this yrs ago. What happened ? I cannot dumb it down any further.
 
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Could you provide the real data support ( or source ) for your below statement?

Why not? WS-10A has more thrust than AL-31F, as well as longer periods between servicing. Remaining issues with the engine has long been resolved several years ago. .
 
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Could you provide the real data support ( or source ) for your below statement?

专家:中美发动机差距不到10年

This is the interview conversation from lin zuoming, chairman of AVIC who claim taihang engine service interval is 1500hrs. Material use and lifespan is far superior than Russia engine. Only slight behind compare to US engine.
 
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专家:中美发动机差距不到10年

This is the interview conversation from lin zuoming, chairman of AVIC who claim taihang engine service interval is 1500hrs. Material use and lifespan is far superior than Russia engine. Only slight behind compare to US engine.

Yeah we should respect the reality in statement of Mr. Lin
Am I wrong that he said ( by your link ) "the life span of WS-10 : 1,500 hours as design requirement " and maintenance interval each 300 hours ? @S10
 记者:网上有人质疑中国发动机不行,说太行发动机只有300小时的寿命,这是否属实?

  老董:这个错大了,我们太行的寿命是1500小时,按照设计要求,300小时是定期维护。


In 2007 a Chinese wrote: ( may China get the lower performance AL-31F engine compare to other customers ? )
lol, in 6 years, you will need to buy a new AL-31. we got the su-30mkk in 2001 and we are already ordering 180 AL-31s to replace the old engines. They got the 3000 hour lifetime, but it's funny that China never got an AL-31 that lasted close to that.
Compare GE F110 to AL-31

American F100/110 : 2,000 hours maintenance interval and 8,000 hours service life.
Russian AL-31 : 3,000 hours lifetime and 500-750 hours between maintenance time
 
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Heh, if it is not still the fail from your part.

First of all, there is a threshold: The clutter rejection threshold.

Every radar system have it. Either reject it, or your system is overwhelmed with returns. From this perspective, every low radar observable design should have the clutter region as target, else it could not call itself low radar observable. As radar processing technology progresses, the lower the clutter rejection threshold, which will make it increasingly difficult for any design to match its RCS to the newer and lower threshold.

Second,

I never said canards must be excluded. Canards are flight control surfaces that are based on design.

The rules for a low radar observable design are control of:

- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

All low radar observable designs conforms to those rules to varying degrees, so just because newer conceptual designs may have canards, that does not mean current designs conforms to those rules to the same degrees as newer designs. All three rules are equally important and works in concert.

For example...As each flight control surface is a radiator, new conceptual designs may have materials that fully absorb all impinging radar signals, so while the newer design may have more radiators than current designs, the newer materials obeys rule three (modes of radiation) to such a degree that the newer design can be less obedient to rules one and two.

Do you how all of this relate and affects each other ?

I explained all of this a long time ago, as in yrs ago when I first came on this forum. Were you guys asleep in class ?


Because you were asleep in class ?

The rules for designing a low radar observable body are control of:

- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

So just because one design have more radiators than the next, that does not automatically make it less 'stealthy' than its competitors.

We have one design with a single vertical stab: F-16.

Then we have another design with twin vertical stab: F15.

So under the above three rules, both the F-15 and F-16 are less obedient to rule two: Control of array of radiators.

That is because all the vertical stabs create the dreaded 90 deg corner reflectors.

But if the twin vertical stabs are canted, like the F-18 or F-117 or F-22, the corner reflectors are still there, just not 90 deg. So while the F-18, F-117, and F-22 are less obedient than the F-16 for rule one, the twin canted vertical stabs does not create the dreaded 90 deg corner reflectors like the F-16 does -- all the time. That mean the F-18, F-117, and F-22 are more obedient to rule two than the F-16, hence, despite having more radiators in the tail section, the F-18, F-117, and F-22 are more 'stealthy' than the F-16 in that area.

Do you see how the three rules relate and affects each other ?

For the PAK's large and actuating leading edges, their movements throughout flight and maneuvers falls under rule two: Control of array of radiators.

That is because as they move, they changes their orientation to other structures nearby. The word 'array' mean arrangement and alignment in relation. In a complex body like an aircraft, arrays of radiators are constantly in flux to many degrees. A radiator, like a fin, maybe visible to the seeking radar one second but as the aircraft maneuver, the fin disappeared from radar view, therefore its arrangement to other nearby structures momentarily does not exist -- according to radar view.

I explained all of this yrs ago. What happened ? I cannot dumb it down any further.
Sorry, you write a lot of garbage words to obfuscate a simple point. You haven't convinced me that the Pak Fa airfoil doesn't have the same defect as a canard.

You claim an airfoil (which is basically a canard attached at the rear) is stealthy, but not a canard. You use bs jargon like stab and radiators. I say you're full of it. The J-20 canard is covered in RAM. It's not radiating much of anything

When you put up a wall of text, it tells me that you don't know what's going on.
 
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Saab builds Gripen jet fighter and has a new stealth fighter design with...CANARDS.

I say canards are stealthy.
Gambit disagrees and says canards are not stealthy.
Let's consult a real Western fighter manufacturer like Saab. Saab builds the Gripen. They know what they are doing.

What does Saab have to say about canards? They're putting it on their next-generation Saab stealth fighter.

Who are you going to believe? Saab or internet keyboard warrior Gambit? I'm picking Saab.

Saab claims broadband stealth with CANARDS.

XvhVzyM.jpg

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SAAB new stealth fighter program | aerospace news | robotpig.net

jxYCBTZ.jpg

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Sorry, you write a lot of garbage words to obfuscate a simple point. You haven't convinced me that the Pak Fa airfoil doesn't have the same defect as a canard.

You claim an airfoil (which is basically a canard attached at the rear) is stealthy, but not a canard. You use bs jargon like stab and radiators. I say you're full of it.
I said no such things. When you have to resort to twisting my words, it tells everyone that what I said went whooosh over your head. The word 'radiator' is not BS jargon. It is a common descriptor used by professionals in the RF communication business to mean anything that -- what else -- radiate.

The J-20 canard is covered in RAM. It's not radiating much of anything
Bullshit. This tells me you do not know what you are talking about. As if we do not know that already.

EVERYTHING that intercepts an EM stream becomes a radiator. This is real physics, not 'Chinese physics'. No absorber is ever perfect. ALL absorbers of any formulation -- to date -- radiate or reflects a minute amount of signal -- the leading edge of the pulse -- before the rest of the signal penetrate the material. This is because an absorber is a composite which mean that in order for this composite to withstand aerodynamic and environmental stresses of flight, the material WILL have constituents whose molecular bonds must be robust enough to withstand those stresses and they will reflects a small amount of the radar signal. This is passive absorber. Active absorption is for a different discussion.

When you put up a wall of text, it tells me that you don't know what's going on.
Whenever I see your posts that contains a lot of pictures, many of us here know you are just putting together things you hope would be confusing enough to distract the gullible -- like your fellow Chinese.

Saab builds Gripen jet fighter and has a new stealth fighter design with...CANARDS.

I say canards are stealthy.
Gambit disagrees and says canards are not stealthy.
Let's consult a real Western fighter manufacturer like Saab. Saab builds the Gripen. They know what they are doing.

What does Saab have to say about canards? They're putting it on their next-generation Saab stealth fighter.

Who are you going to believe? Saab or internet keyboard warrior Gambit? I'm picking Saab.
Which part of this...

The rules for designing a low radar observable body are control of:

- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

...Do you not understand ?

Never mind. It was a rhetorical question. I know you understand not one item from it.

Be that as it may, if Saab is successful in rule three on the canards, then there is less of a need to be obedient to rules one and two. Why is that so difficult to understand ?

So what do we know of the Saab concept ? Nothing other than Saab presents a lot of pictures. Do you see those pics of the F-117 before the real thing came out ? How much different are they from the real aircraft ?

I just realized that China have invented a passive EM absorber that have perfect impedance matching of every commonly used radar frequency. Wonder why this perfect material is used only the J-20's canards and nowhere else. :omghaha:
 
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Sure the F-35 would compromise its stealth, but its sensors can see further than the F-16. Most aircraft are pretty delicate against bullets so I don't think its a heartache when risking it.

F35 is basically a large fighter shortened to f/a18c length but more bulky wider fuselage. Its single large engine power is equivalent to twin medium engines of super hornets at extent of burning more fuel per second & heavier.

F35b STOVL should be redesigned not to have internal bay carrying external armaments all the time since marines would use them for close air support attacking tanks, vehicles, buildings near or within visual range mostly. Just low RCS would do except for few that are reserved for full stealth missions. Same goes to f35a & f35c that should have more lighter low rcs variant without the internal bay.

@Deino @Hu Songshan
can't we just ban these indian and viet troll permanently????

No, don't ban them. Make them to debate with facts instead for healthy discussion, improvement and new ideas. There's always competition which is good for advancement. Like them posting su30mki vs j16, mig29k vs j15, india vs china carrier, ships, tanks, etc are all good what if scenario discussions. Everyone would want to know, predict and debate.

Yeah we should respect the reality in statement of Mr. Lin
Am I wrong that he said ( by your link ) "the life span of WS-10 : 1,500 hours as design requirement " and maintenance interval each 300 hours ? @S10



In 2007 a Chinese wrote: ( may China get the lower performance AL-31F engine compare to other customers ? )

Compare GE F110 to AL-31

American F100/110 : 2,000 hours maintenance interval and 8,000 hours service life.
Russian AL-31 : 3,000 hours lifetime and 500-750 hours between maintenance time

Good comparison, indeed Pratt & Whitney and General Electric made real good reliable & durable engines used in the f18, f16 & f15 . It's mostly on the materials and heat sinks. Flanker engines are far more durable than mig29's engine.

The Chinese replicated and modified variants of Russian engines could have used better materials extending their durability. Chinese replicated american engines tech from Pakistan f16s and added what they learned into their engines. There are countries that flew flankers been buying parts from China, not just because cheaper but more durable.
 
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Yeah we should respect the reality in statement of Mr. Lin
Am I wrong that he said ( by your link ) "the life span of WS-10 : 1,500 hours as design requirement " and maintenance interval each 300 hours ? @S10



In 2007 a Chinese wrote: ( may China get the lower performance AL-31F engine compare to other customers ? )

Compare GE F110 to AL-31

American F100/110 : 2,000 hours maintenance interval and 8,000 hours service life.
Russian AL-31 : 3,000 hours lifetime and 500-750 hours between maintenance time

1500hrs service interval, not lifespan. That is better than Russian Al-31F 500-750hrs service interval. He did not mention Taihang lifespan but judging from 1500hrs service interval recommend , it will easily surpass Russian AL-31 engine of 3000hrs. And the fact, Lin mention WS-10A is superior to Russian AL-31 engine.

Fancy you use quote a 2007 Chinese words? WS-10A has not even born. Why not use a 2001 article to rubbish your point?
WS-10A is revised and finalised in 2012 after the failure of WS-10 in 2009. How can a Chinese predicted the future in 2007? Tell me?

As for comparing to US engine. I am not denying and even Lin mention a 10years gap between China and US but after US who is better than China? I doubt UK and France have hardly any lead over China.
 
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1500hrs service interval, not lifespan. That is better than Russian Al-31F 500-750hrs service interval. He did not mention Taihang lifespan but judging from 1500hrs service interval recommend , it will easily surpass Russian AL-31 engine of 3000hrs. And the fact, Lin mention WS-10A is superior to Russian AL-31 engine.

Fancy you use quote a 2007 Chinese words? WS-10A has not even born. Why not use a 2001 article to rubbish your point?
WS-10A is revised and finalised in 2012 after the failure of WS-10 in 2009. How can a Chinese predicted the future in 2007? Tell me?

As for comparing to US engine. I am not denying and even Lin mention a 10years gap between China and US but after US who is better than China? I doubt UK and France have hardly any lead over China.


Man! Have you heard about Rolls Royce?

It has been creating fantastic jet engines for many years. The biggest jet engine is also a rolls royce if I recall correctly.

Also, the basic thing is that the defense markets and industries of NATO are highly integrated, which means that experts and technologies can easily travel.

The last thing I must say is that none, not even one of Chinese engines are mature.
Which means that no engine has been produced in large production quantities (not including prototypes for testing) which means greater than 300 to 400 engines, and have been in service for many airplanes, for long time.

Maybe by 2020 it will be. But stay with the facts. If you are cognizant of your current situation, it will lead to faster catching up with the rest of the world.
 
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Man! Have you heard about Rolls Royce?

It has been creating fantastic jet engines for many years. The biggest jet engine is also a rolls royce if I recall correctly.

Also, the basic thing is that the defense markets and industries of NATO are highly integrated, which means that experts and technologies can easily travel.

The last thing I must say is that none, not even one of Chinese engines are mature.
Which means that no engine has been produced in large production quantities (not including prototypes for testing) which means greater than 300 to 400 engines, and have been in service for many airplanes, for long time.

Maybe by 2020 it will be. But stay with the facts. If you are cognizant of your current situation, it will lead to faster catching up with the rest of the world.

It has happen, WS-10A has produced in more than 300 engines and is stable and mature enough for Chinese to put them on demonstration and operationa units to win the faith of local folksman. Sure you wouldn't want mishap to happen during this airshow to humilitate yourself, right?


The J-11B spotted with WS-10A engine intercepting P-8. Photo taken by USN P-8.
Chinese-j-11.jpg


Roll Royce has many years of experience but lack of investment and cutting back of R&D is slowing eroding Roll Royce advantage. Chinese AVIC with ever more and more funds and more top cream talent working for them is just trying to catch up with the US aviation engine makers.
 
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1500hrs service interval, not lifespan. That is better than Russian Al-31F 500-750hrs service interval. He did not mention Taihang lifespan but judging from 1500hrs service interval recommend , it will easily surpass Russian AL-31 engine of 3000hrs. And the fact, Lin mention WS-10A is superior to Russian AL-31 engine..

记者:网上有人质疑中国发动机不行,说太行发动机只有300小时的寿命,这是否属实?

  老董:这个错大了,我们太行的寿命是1500小时,按照设计要求,300小时是定期维护

Make sure you translate correctly, 太行的寿命是1500小时
and 300小时 是定期维护
I realized you ignore the number 300

And about 10 years, it's about service life of American engine,

@kungfugymnast : could you help to translate correctly above Chinese text? thanks
 
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Man! Have you heard about Rolls Royce?

It has been creating fantastic jet engines for many years. The biggest jet engine is also a rolls royce if I recall correctly.

Also, the basic thing is that the defense markets and industries of NATO are highly integrated, which means that experts and technologies can easily travel.

The last thing I must say is that none, not even one of Chinese engines are mature.
Which means that no engine has been produced in large production quantities (not including prototypes for testing) which means greater than 300 to 400 engines, and have been in service for many airplanes, for long time.

Maybe by 2020 it will be. But stay with the facts. If you are cognizant of your current situation, it will lead to faster catching up with the rest of the world.

I prefer Pratt & Whitney or General Electric over crappy Rolls Royce engines. American engines are far more durable and cost effective. Civilian Airliners mostly use Rolls Royce engines just because of more quiet and classy yet parts costlier. Military wise, most prefer American, Russian and now Chinese engines because they are more rugged and proven under harsh conditions. You don't expect classy and expensive parts operating in warzone, probably under scarce resources.

Chinese engines have stolen general electric engine durability ingredient in them after china got their hands on Pakistani F16s. That's why china favors own engines over Russian engines nowadays. They bought rd93 engines for j31 is mainly for replication purpose, same goes to su35, it's the AL41 engine they're after.
 
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CHINESE AIR-TO-AIR MISSILE HITS TARGETS, SPOOKS USAF GENERAL

PL-15 IS CHINA'S BEST AND BADDEST AERIAL WEAPON YET

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted Yesterday at 10:52pm

pl-15_j-31.jpg

Kills of the future lt.cdjby.net via errymath This 2014 CGI shows a J-31 stealth fighter launching a long range PL-15 missile. Given USAF concerns about the high performance PL-15, it could indeed feature high performance technologies like range and maneuverability enhancing ramjets, and a jam resistant AESA radar seeker.

Beyond visual range air-to-air missiles (BVRAAM) are long-range missiles used by fighters to knock out enemy fighters, bombers, tankers, drones and other aircraft from ranges beyond 30km. On September 15, 2015, China successfully test fired its latest iteration, the PL-15, firing from a fighter to destroy a target drone.

pl-15_close_up.jpg

PL-15 Different Angles club.mil.news.sina.com.cn These set of photos from 2013 show the PL-15 during captive flight testing (carried by fighters like this J-11B). The PL-15 is shown to be about four meters long and 200mm in diameter, about the same size as the older PL-12 BVRAAM. The PL-15 uses improved propulsion, such as advanced rocket motors and possibly ramjet engines, to achieve a greater range.

The PL-15 is developed by the 607 Institute. It is the replacement for China's current BVRAAM, the radar guided, PL-12, which reportedly has a range of approximately 100km. Compared to the PL-12, the PL-15 has an improved active radar seeker and jam-resistant datalinks, along with a dual pulse rocket motor to extend its range.

j-11b_pl-15.jpg

The Flanker's New Missile Andreas Rupprecht The J-11B Flanker, a Chinese modification of the Russian Su-27 heavy fighter, is shown here with a PL-15 on a payload pylon under the left wing. While the J-11B's radar may not have the range to use the PL-15 to its maximum range, it can receive the location of distant enemy fighters from a KJ-2000 airborne early warning control (AEWC) aircraft, fire the PL-15 and let the PL-15's advanced radar guide the missile, with course corrections from the KJ-2000 AEWC, all without turning on the J-11B's radar (and giving away its position).

Even in the prototype stage, the PL-15 is already an international star. Speaking at the 2015 Air Force Association conference the same week as the test, USAF Air Combatant Commander General Hawk Carlisle cited the PL-15 as the reason for Congress to fund a new missile to replace the American AMRAAM. His reasons for concern is the PL-15's range. By incorporating a ramjet engine, its range could reach 150-200km, was well as its terminal maneuverability. That would out-range existing American air-to-air missiles, making the PL-15 not just a threat to fighters like the F-35, but also to US bombers and aerial tankers critical to American air operations across the vast Pacific. General Carlisle called "out-sticking" the PL-15 a high priority for the USAF.

j-20_weapons_bay.jpg

PL-15 Future Home China Military Review Blogspot The early 2002 (now 2004) J-20 stealth fighter prototype flies a test, carrying simulated BVRAAM loadouts (two in its main left weapons bay). Production J-20s are expected to be able to carry three BVRAAMs in each main weapons bay, making for 6 long range missiles, like the PL-15.

As the PL-15 moves to deployment stage, it will equip Chinese stealth fighter jets, such as the J-20 and J-31, as well as the older J-10, J-11, J-15 and J-16 fighters. This makes keeping up with the PL-15 an important part of American efforts to out-do an innovative and improving Chinese military system.

Chinese Air-To-Air Missile Hits Targets, Spooks USAF General | Popular Science
 
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