Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Hurter]

It would be ideal to replace these with Jf-17 but current production is only 12 planes per year.
There is a possibility that Pakistan may acquire 28 surplus f-16s from USA.

More than 300+ F-16 are stored at Boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona.

Ideal for PAF
104 F-16 (current inventory 76 F16 + 28 surplus F-16 MLU)
50 Jf-17 block 1 (will be upgraded to block2)
50 Jf-17 block 2
50 Jf-17 block 3.
36-70 J-31

Deal for 36 FC-20 was almost done in 2010 but due to Zardari asking for his 10% from Chinese, deal fell apart.

If PAF wants to buy more F16s then they should ask for block E/F not C/D. If not then PAF should consider buying latest jets than F16s.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Nilesh Singh

Mirage 3 and Mirage 5 are Close air support planes with limited self defence capabilities

But they are Mach 2 planes

They will attack our Armoured and mechanised formations

And with today's stand off weapons and glide bombs; you cannot take any plane lightly

 

[Nilesh Singh]

See i am not doubting the capabilities of mirage 3 and mirage 5 of what it can do in war, but if you have read my post i have written from my perspective currently due to Pakistan air force situation it does not serve the purpose for what it was purchased. They need second line fighter whether it can be F16 or J-10 but definitely not Mirage. It will shooting practice for the 4++ gen aircraft. I have clearly mentioned why in my earlier post.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

See i am not doubting the capabilities of mirage 3 and mirage 5 of what it can do in war, but if you have read my post i have written from my perspective currently due to Pakistan air force situation it does not serve the purpose for what it was purchased. They need second line fighter whether it can be F16 or J-10 but definitely not Mirage. It will shooting practice for the 4++ gen aircraft. I have clearly mentioned why in my earlier post.

Well there are times when F18 has killed F22, F15 has killed Rafale and F16 killed Euro Fighter Typhon. It is really difficult to say it will be shooting practice for 4++ gen. Cheaper aircraft shoots down more expensive one would always hurt more and questions would be raised. It would not matter if 15:1 ratio is considered the 1 loss would still remain a sore issue.

 

[Nilesh Singh]

Well there are times when F18 has killed F22, F15 has killed Rafale and F16 killed Euro Fighter Typhon. It is really difficult to say it will be shooting practice for 4++ gen. Cheaper aircraft shoots down more expensive one would always hurt more and questions would be raised. It would not matter if 15:1 ratio is considered the 1 loss would still remain a sore issue.

Brother thats my precise point, Pakistan needs quality fighter against its adversities, PAF would love 1 to 1 scenario, but it will more like 3 or 4 to 1 (again quality fighter), you can't turn Mirage to your 2nd line fighter, Pakistan need either more F16 or J-10 period. Mirage is good for what Pakistan has taken earlier thinking, it was never meant to be second line fighter. Pakistan bought for different purpose but now PAF is using in totally different role, it has limitation and so much up gradation you can do to 60's fighter. Same way you can't think Mig 21 bison from IAF is used for offense against F16 again IAF can do but it will not be able to hold up against F16, again my Indian friend will start from cope India exercise and all , as you have provided so many example. In IAF MIg-21, Jaguar is used for purpose only for which it was bought for not other way round. I think on this i will rest my case ,would love to hear from other member on this.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Brother thats my precise point, Pakistan needs quality fighter against its adversities, PAF would love 1 to 1 scenario, but it will more like 3 or 4 to 1 (again quality fighter), you can't turn Mirage to your 2nd line fighter, Pakistan need either more F16 or J-10 period. Mirage is good for what Pakistan has taken earlier thinking, it was never meant to be second line fighter. Pakistan bought for different purpose but now PAF is using in totally different role, it has limitation and so much up gradation you can do to 60's fighter. Same way you can't think Mig 21 bison from IAF is used for offense against F16 again IAF can do but it will not be able to hold up against F16, again my Indian friend will start from cope India exercise and all , as you have provided so many example. In IAF MIg-21, Jaguar is used for purpose only for which it was bought for not other way round. I think on this i will rest my case ,would love to hear from other member on this.

Mirage III are high speed Interceptors which is why they are still very potent. France operates Mirage V today in roles of Nuclear strike. Would this undermine that these aircraft are not potent in todays war.

IAF Mig 21's are similar in design to the F7s but are no where close to F7P's which has be highly modified in flight performance as well as avionics. Pakistan Air force would have some other surprises as well in regards to tactics.

The number of F16's is less that can be increased. But here the purchasing an of self product would have certain disadvantages. JF-17's can fulfil the numbers issue as well as they can be modified as to the exact requirements of PAF.

One can modify or upgrade a product but to what extent. IAF is having these issues with the MIG 21, MIG 29, JAG and Mirage 2000. So far IAF does need any improvements to the MKI otherwise that would again become a big issue.

 

[Nilesh Singh]

Mirage III are high speed Interceptors which is why they are still very potent. France operates Mirage V today in roles of Nuclear strike. Would this undermine that these aircraft are not potent in todays war.

IAF Mig 21's are similar in design to the F7s but are no where close to F7P's which has be highly modified in flight performance as well as avionics. Pakistan Air force would have some other surprises as well in regards to tactics.

The number of F16's is less that can be increased. But here the purchasing an of self product would have certain disadvantages. JF-17's can fulfil the numbers issue as well as they can be modified as to the exact requirements of PAF.

One can modify or upgrade a product but to what extent. IAF is having these issues with the MIG 21, MIG 29, JAG and Mirage 2000. So far IAF does need any improvements to the MKI otherwise that would again become a big issue.

Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 with up-gradation are to totally different level fighter and you know it and as well as i also know if we check without nationalist ego it is easily in level of F16-Block 52 level. Mig-21 bison has BVR capabilities but it can't be replacement for MKI, hell not for even Mirage 2000 and Mig 29. Mirage III is a interceptor and it was made at that time to use against bomber fleet, it is not a dog fight fighter and has little self defense capabilities. Again if Mirage 5 is used as nuclear deter ant fighter then its ok, but you take this fighter to war for either defense or Offense against good fighter it will not return back, again it was made for a purpose and not for dog fight.
If you compare Mig 21 bison capability with Mirage you will find it is almost in same league but in BVR, radar range, self defense it is better than Mirage. You need Pakistan in the 1:2 ratio maximum against its enemy AF, worse than this ratio is a bad secenario, anf i am talking in 4th generation fighter. See J17 will another decade to come to the level of F16, and you need to put better radar (i think 105 km is detection range, which is very low compare to any modern fighter), and you need better avionic, chinese avionic is not the right answer. And whatever F7 up gradation has been done it is based on Mig 21 and it has its limitation, chinese are retiring in 100's every year you should not forget that. And Chinese fighter what ever it might look like it has not been tested in any real war. You Need tested fighter....Plain and simple

 

[IrbiS]

See i am saying why mirage it is not ideal plane for Pakistan at this moment, now let me be the devil advocate here the problem is your mirage are second line defence after F-16, now about jaguar they will not meet Mirage because until India have air superiority they will not venture in Pakistan for India Jaguar is in 4th place, it can't be said same about Pakistan , because your JF-17 is still not fully proven fighter and are not in large number to take second line defense or offense. Now big carrot is will you send F16 on offensive then who will defend against Suk-30mki if you keep F16 for defense then these mirage fighter need to go for offense other wise if you are flying all your fighter in your own air space then even other Pakistani member will agree with me it will be suicidal.
Now to get out of this mess what Pakistan need to do is as your Pakistan Think Tank has said you need solid second line fighter it can either you increase F16 number to more than 140+ so that both Offense and defense can be taken by this fighter or you urgently need J-10 in some at least 50+ numbers for the second line defense.
I would love to hear from other senior Pakistan member on this but please no troll!!!thanks........

Brother thats my precise point, Pakistan needs quality fighter against its adversities, PAF would love 1 to 1 scenario, but it will more like 3 or 4 to 1 (again quality fighter), you can't turn Mirage to your 2nd line fighter, Pakistan need either more F16 or J-10 period. Mirage is good for what Pakistan has taken earlier thinking, it was never meant to be second line fighter. Pakistan bought for different purpose but now PAF is using in totally different role, it has limitation and so much up gradation you can do to 60's fighter. Same way you can't think Mig 21 bison from IAF is used for offense against F16 again IAF can do but it will not be able to hold up against F16, again my Indian friend will start from cope India exercise and all , as you have provided so many example. In IAF MIg-21, Jaguar is used for purpose only for which it was bought for not other way round. I think on this i will rest my case ,would love to hear from other member on this.

First thing first, Would I like to see them replaced from frontline service with modern platforms right now? Hell yeah. But I mind you, even if they get replaced by the end of 2014, PAF shouldn't and 'll not scrap them right away. They would still be around and as I said earlier, reactivated IF needed in next few years.

So what they can do? Before going to that, one should see HOW PAF WILL FIGHT? We don't fight world wars here in sub-continent with thousand bomber raids on civil targets just to make them angry against their govt. or just about anything that we wanna hit and neither side can do it. Both sides have limited resources and in war-time you have to be as efficient as possible with your machines. If a strike package from either side reaches it target area, it would try to make every bomb count. What I mean by all that crap is that either it's a declared war on border or limited conflict, we know what you would try to hit.

For air-to-air, Mirages can defend vital point and main bases from jags and migs. That's actually our second line-of-defence : point defence of all targets against strikers and area defence against low-altitude interdictors. Primary role for F-7 but Mirages can supplement them. We don't want em to do more than that. And if tanks and troops come rumbling down on border or striking forward bases and even precision strikes with stand-off weapons against important targets not so deep inside the other side, it's ideal, cheaper compared to newer fighters and somewhat expendable(only plane, not the driver)

 

[Nilesh Singh]

First thing first, Would I like to see them replaced from frontline service with modern platforms right now? Hell yeah. But I mind you, even if they get replaced by the end of 2014, PAF shouldn't and 'll not scrap them right away. They would still be around and as I said earlier, reactivated IF needed in next few years.

So what they can do? Before going to that, one should see HOW PAF WILL FIGHT? We don't fight world wars here in sub-continent with thousand bomber raids on civil targets just to make them angry against their govt. or just about anything that we wanna hit and neither side can do it. Both sides have limited resources and in war-time you have to be as efficient as possible with your machines. If a strike package from either side reaches it target area, it would try to make every bomb count. What I mean by all that crap is that either it's a declared war on border or limited conflict, we know what you would try to hit.

For air-to-air, Mirages can defend vital point and main bases from jags and migs. That's actually our second line-of-defence : point defence of all targets and strikers and area defence against low-altitude interdictors. Primary role for F-7 but Mirages can supplement them. We don't want em to do more than that. And if tanks and troops come rumbling down on border or striking forward bases and even precision strikes with stand-off weapons against important targets not so deep inside the other side, it's ideal, cheaper compared to newer fighters and somewhat expendable(only plane, not the driver)

See brother i understand if every thing go your way you will be ok, but is not Alice in wonderland case.........You need to have Plan B,C,D etc, but please no nuclear nonsense. In 71 war when Pakistan attacked India thinking it can take out all front line fighter and airfield in first wave, you gone horribly wrong on this and then rest is history, by the end of war PAF was reduced to 1/3rd to its original numbers although at that other than few Mig 21 we were having crap AF. You might think Pakistan down more aircraft of IAF and i will say vise-versa, bottom line is you were doing only defensive sorties after initial attack in 71 and your military planner didn't think of this situation to arise so quickly in war. Again this not my quote it is from Sochta Pakistan TV series where speaker was a high label defense bureaucrat you can see the entire interview in you tube. And you need to think logically that you can't have all answer for problem in PAF is JF-17. This is not ready fighter at any level. You need tested fighter and in big numbers and best way is to go for another 100 F-16 block 52 period.

 

[IrbiS]

See brother i understand if every thing go your way you will be ok, but is not Alice in wonderland case.........You need to have Plan B,C,D etc, but please no nuclear nonsense. In 71 war when Pakistan attacked India thinking it can take out all front line fighter and airfield in first wave, you gone horribly wrong on this and then rest is history, by the end of war PAF was reduced to 1/3rd to its original numbers although at that other than few Mig 21 we were having crap AF. You might think Pakistan down more aircraft of IAF and i will say vise-versa, bottom line is you were doing only defensive sorties after initial attack in 71 and your military planner didn't think of this situation to arise so quickly in war. Again this not my quote it is from Sochta Pakistan TV series where speaker was a high label defense bureaucrat you can see the entire interview in you tube. And you need to think logically that you can't have all answer for problem in PAF is JF-17. This is not ready fighter at any level. You need tested fighter and in big numbers and best way is to go for another 100 F-16 block 52 period.

71 was very big mess on our side even if I omit your role for a second and think, yeah very messy. For the record : CHENGIZ KHAN(operation) achieved its surprise element but we couldn't exploit it to favorable extent. In other words, We caught you with your pants down for some time but didn't avail the opportunity and whole other mistakes. You are talking about moeed peerzada's program.

Coming back to the issue in hands, PAF is on the par with IAF today, you can disagree with seeming PAF problems but I hope not try to test without solving IAF's many unseeming problems. It may look slow from far but JF-17 program is doing great. Block II is just about to be inducted and you 'll see a new second line emerging. It needs some more time to mature but not as much as your guess. Mirages will be replaced but we want F-7Ps to go first. I'm repeating, even gone Mirages 'll be around for a while for tasks I mentioned before and as you're saying, they would compliment numbers in a high-low end. As air chief himself said last november :
“We continue to evaluate various possibilities of other weapon systems including fighter aircraft. Depending upon the options and availability of funds, some inductions could possibly materialize in the not too distant future”
Eventually we'll get another platform but not J-10 as you said(I maybe wrong). Because, over the time JF 'll be improved to a level that it has similar capabilities to J-10 and with more F-16s InshaALLAH, we should be looking for 5th Gen or some Flanker family member at least. We don't need to rush, what IAF has today? it still has problems with Sushkas and their next refit 'll take time to complete, same case with Mirage and Migs plus Rafale and LCA ain't coming that soon.

But it was a BVR....

It didn't have that much range 17-20 km I think. Plus it was Semi-active, so not much of a wonder weapon.

 

[TOPGUN]

Man last time I checked this thread was about PAF Mirage's not a dick size contest with IAF and why are we talking about IAF here ? stick tot the topic people ......

 

[Nilesh Singh]

Man last time I checked this thread was about PAF Mirage's not a dick size contest with IAF and why are we talking about IAF here ? stick tot the topic people ......

Sorry if you feel i am derailing the post i was just putting my point of view on Mirage standing in PAF.

 

[TOPGUN]

Sorry if you feel i am derailing the post i was just putting my point of view on Mirage standing in PAF.

Thank you Nilesh bro , but its not just you or you derailing the thread its others also . The point in the end is that the PAF Mirages are still a useful machine in war or peace time simply wither one likes it or not trust me when I tell you this but yes sooner or later they will and shall be replaced by Thunders .

 

[black-hawk_101]

Man last time I checked this thread was about PAF Mirage's not a dick size contest with IAF and why are we talking about IAF here ? stick tot the topic people ......

Top Gun how are you? Add me as Friend sir.

 

[TOPGUN]

Top Gun how are you? Add me as Friend sir.

I am fine bro thx and you ? ok will add you