Building a new ‘Mandar’ in Riyasat-e-Madina is against the spirit of Islam: Ch Pervaiz Elahi

[Syed1.]

You can absolutely talk about it - I didn't say you couldn't talk about it, but don't cast it as an issue where Pakistanis are unanimous in their views. Like almost every issue or discussion in Pakistan, this topic too has supporters and detractors. That said, your comment did not make any distinction about opposing tax payer money for construction of temples vs construction of temples - you clearly said that 'if the West can ban X then we can ban Y' - so next time take more care in how you phrase your arguments.

From a legal perspective I agree (and I have said this on another thread related to the Temple construction) that the government should not be involved in funding religious places of worship with some exceptions for historical sites or sites that were occupied/damaged/destroyed and it was the government's job to prevent said damage/occupation.

Similarly, I would also like to see wide ranging actions against ALL mosques and madadrassa's that have been constructed illegally. This issue is deserving of far more bandwidth and discussion than one single temple being constructed since the number of illegally constructed mosques and madrassa's is a much larger problem, especially if you're concerned about taxpayer money and the damage to tax payers - the illegally constructed mosques are either on government land or privately owned land - either way it is the average tax payer that is suffering.

Did the same logic apply for Kartarpur? Or it was ok in that case to fund a religious place of worship because we were trying to get the Indian Sikh community in our corner?


The minorities in Pakistan are so oppressed that I don't see a problem with the government giving a little helping hand to them. It wouldn't put Islam in danger. If in an ideal world our minorities enjoyed the same rights as those enjoyed by Muslim minorities in the west, then I wouldn't have been in favour of government funding a religious place of worship.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Brother, Islam is insulted and mocked on a daily basis on pdf. If someone states his position based on Islamic principles, he is immediately declared a mullah, TTP, extremist, LeJ, Wahabi, Jihadi and takfiri all at once without even hearing him out with an open mind. Concepts like Jihad, jizya and hijab are frowned upon, at times by our own compatriots. No action is taken.

You didn't answer the question.

Just because some people attack Islam does not mean the rest of us become like them. One crime isn't justified by another crime.

Did the same logic apply for Kartarpur? Or it was ok in that case to fund a religious place of worship because we were trying to get the Indian Sikh community in our corner?

You must have missed the following comment in my post you quoted:

"with some exceptions for historical sites or sites that were occupied/damaged/destroyed and it was the government's job to prevent said damage/occupation."

Kartarpur and the 400+ temples being renovated per the PTI government's plan fall in the above stated exceptions list.

The minorities in Pakistan are so oppressed that I don't see a problem with the government giving a little helping hand to them. It wouldn't put Islam in danger. If in an ideal world our minorities enjoyed the same rights as those enjoyed by Muslim minorities in the west, then I wouldn't have been in favour of government funding a religious place of worship.

I personally don't have a problem with that, but what you're asking for requires a legal or constitutional exception to be made, and given the uproar over one single temple, I don't think you're going to have the political will to pass legislation to support such an approach.

 

[Psychic]

That said, your comment did not make any distinction about opposing tax payer money for construction of temples vs construction of temples - you clearly said that 'if the West can ban X then we can ban Y' - so next time take more care in how you phrase your arguments.

That was stated in my previous posts. The discussion was moving ahead so I had no need to repeat myself.

Similarly, I would also like to see wide ranging actions against ALL mosques and madrassa's that have been constructed illegally.

I have no issue with that.

The state has the right to demolish any building constructed illegally. There is consensus of Muslims on that particular issue.

 

[YeBeWarned]

but his voice may be drowned out soon by the self appointed Mahdis in the forum.

I guess you're right and we can see it in this thread

 

[Aryeih Leib]

I am truely sorry if I am wrong but didn't Prophet Muhammad allow non Muslim to settle in their territory

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

CLosed for moderation

I just had the pleasure of reading @Starlord post earlier in the thread and it stung in that it did flagged something that I was guilty of - making comments about posters being religious extremists. I have deleted posts related to that comment of mine on this thread and apologize to all concerned.

every civilization impose restrictions on minorities for building new worship place,europe also not allowed building of mosques for thousands of years and spain converted mosques to churches,but even after they allowed they impose restrictions on loud calling of Azan as well slaughtering animals for sacrifice openly,similarly china and russia also disallowed building of new mosques in their history and india also is demolishing mosques and banned loud calling of Azan,In many western countries women are not allowed to wear burqa and mayanmar budhists brutality killed thousands of burma Muslims so first ask this logic from these nations who call them as secular but show clear bias towards Islam

We cannot use crimes committed by others as justification for us doing the same.

If you want to argue against the construction of temples or any other issue, please do not use intolerance, hatred and prejudice in other countries and societies as justification, because you are no better than them if you do.

You should be able to logically argue for or against an issue on its own merits.

Thread reopened.

 

[BHarwana]

West can ban whatever it wants and so can we. It is hypocrites like you who give the exclusive right of banning stuff to the West while denying that same right to Pakistan.

Sir so by this you mean that what ever west is doing we should do that as well? Like if they are banning something we should also ban something & forget what our religion tells us to do about it?

Doesn't matter what anyone else does.

We are not supposed to ape the West. Let these bandars copy the West in their own private lives. They might even change their religion if it appeases their Western gods. They have been intellectually dominated and colonised by the West. Their logic is that if the West does it then it might be right.

There is no place for syncretism in Islam.

Islam grants the minorities right to worship, life, honor and property. But it is not the job of Muslim state to construct idol houses at taxpayer's expense.

Sir many temples are constructed from your money already & what have you dome about it? When you buy things from western companies they are taxed & that money goes into temples.

Its not an Islamic country's govt's job to build butt kadas with public funds.

People must have the freedom to worship and they can build their mandirs with their own money.

The mandir in question is being built with public funds.


Many scholars allow building of places of worship other than ahl e kitab however there is a consensus that it is un Islamic to allocate public funds for construction of such places of worship.

The problem here and in several other mandir building/restoration projects is that they are funded by the state and not by the minority community.

Sir please quote the verse of Quran Pak which says this or Hadith Pak which says that minorities are exempted from TAX bracket

Brother, Islam is insulted and mocked on a daily basis on pdf. If someone states his position based on Islamic principles, he is immediately declared a mullah, TTP, extremist, LeJ, Wahabi, Jihadi and takfiri all at once without even hearing him out with an open mind. Concepts like Jihad, jizya and hijab are frowned upon, at times by our own compatriots. No action is taken.

Sir please point where Islam is insulted here. I am a Muslim & a moderator if Islam is insulted here than you are accusing me of tolerating that & I would like a proof for your charges against me.

Issue isn't with the construction of temple. Issue is with its construction at taxpayers expense. And we have the right to talk about it.

Sir you have all the right to talk about it but when you talk start with the flag of Pakistan which has white color in it. Which is providing opposition to your notion. If you don't want to spend your tax on minorities please first make the whole flag green then raise the TAX issue.
One thing Islam has taught is to be just so lets do the justice with our own selves first.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Thanks Mods for clearing out some of the more problematic and Islamophobic posts. @AgNoStiC MuSliM @BHarwana

 

[BHarwana]

My friend don't get angry with me but if non Muslim is doing something wrong in some place else where the revenge of that can't be taken from a non Muslim who lives near you that is what Islam said. You want to deny non Muslims rights cause some where else Muslims are denied their rights? Please think what you are saying? Islam has asked you to do Tablieeg and Tablieeg is done by reasoning with others not cursing or hurting them.

@Psychic bro you will achieve nothing by denying minorities their rights but you will achieve more by reasoning with them & discussing the good & bad with them. You will have to convince them towards your religion & you can't do that by showing them your anger.

 

[Psychic]

Sir you have all the right to talk about it but when you talk start with the flag of Pakistan which has white color in it. Which is providing opposition to your notion. If you don't want to spend your tax on minorities please first make the whole flag green then raise the TAX issue.
One thing Islam has taught is to be just so lets do the justice with our own selves first.

I clearly stated that Hindus have a right to worship and that they can build temples. BUT the Islamic state cannot build them with public funds.

Sir so by this you mean that what ever west is doing we should do that as well? Like if they are banning something we should also ban something & forget what our religion tells us to do about it?

No I do not mean that. Read again and slowly this time.

For us, the path of Islam is what we must follow.

Sir many temples are constructed from your money already & what have you dome about it? When you buy things from western companies they are taxed & that money goes into temples.

Itni lambi equations mat banao bhai.

Islamic state is not allowed to construct temples with taxpayer money. That's it.

Sir please quote the verse of Quran Pak which says this or Hadith Pak which says that minorities are exempted from TAX bracket

When did I say that?

They have to pay jizya.

 

[BHarwana]

 

[Psychic]

Sir please point where Islam is insulted here. I am a Muslim & a moderator if Islam is insulted here than you are accusing me of tolerating that & I would like a proof for your charges against me.

I cannot point out each and everything. Islamic concepts like jihad, ummah, hijab, shariah are mocked at a daily basis on pdf. I don't even have to prove it as many members will themselves testify to this fact. If mods were sleeping (read wilfully allowing all that) then its not my fault.

 

[BHarwana]

I clearly stated that Hindus have a right to worship and that they can build temples. BUT the Islamic state cannot build them with public funds.

Why they can't do it bro. You will have to give me some thing more than just statement to agree with you. some reference of law or some verse from Quran Pak.

 

[Psychic]

Why they can't do it bro. You will have to give me some thing more than just statement to agree with you. some reference of law or some verse from Quran Pak.

I said that they can.

 

[BHarwana]

I cannot point out each and everything. Islamic concepts like jihad, ummah, hijab, shariah are mocked at a daily basis on pdf. I don't even have to prove it as many members will themselves testify to this fact. If mods were sleeping (read wilfully allowing all that) then its not my fault.

next time when you come across something like this just tag me please. I don't want to take such a burden to my grave.

I said that they can.

I am talking about tax please give me some thing that they are exempted from the tax bracket.
You are a Muslim. If I ask you to go reason with some non Muslim to accept Islam. How will you do it? by putting a knife to his throat or by delivering the message of Allah pak? There is such a huge population of non Muslims around you in the world & the people who are making achievements to bring them to light are doing it will reasoning. I can give you 1000s of examples of it.
My point here is that to convince some one to Islam you will have to reason with them. There is lot of harm being done to Muslims out there but your approach to that should be, fight those who do harm not those who are living under your protection. When a non Muslim is under your protection it is your duty to protect him feed him & cloth him. You should give your life to protect him. You should sleep hungry your self but he should be fed well.