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Breaking! 3 Indian soldiers killed & many injured in IoK

I completely agree that violence should end, but it takes two to Tango.

Hypothetically, India engages with Pakistan and comes up with a joint statement that both sides agree to using plebiscite as a means to dispute resolution in principle, but that tangible progress towards plebiscite must meet XYZ conditions.

Specify those conditions, establish a broad road-map and tangible markers that need to be met (reduction in violence etc). You have to give people hope and a light at the end of the tunnel. What the BJP has done is move in the opposite direction with the revocation of 370 & policies that suggest settlement of non-Kashmiris in J&K and an eventual demographic genocide.

In the long term, a massive India is going to be the centerpiece of a possible South Asian FTZ. Culturally India already has a massive influence across the region - you're only shooting yourselves in the foot with this short sighted approach towards J&K.

For talks to happen, for any progress to happen, first the violence must cease. Any movement by India towards peace otherwise, would be seen as defeat or succumbing to the pressure of violence. India cannot afford that. No country can. Sets a very bad precedent which can lead to disastrous consequences for the country going forward.

There is no reason why a territorial dispute must involve violence. Indian army would not even be on the streets of the Valley if not for the violent uprising aided by Pakistan in 1989 which led to massacres of hundreds of Kashmiri Hindus and their exodus en masse.
 
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I wonder if SIKH soldiers are providing help to Kashmiris.
Why would they?

They are soldiers, some of the best ones in the Indian military. They will follow orders like good soldiers do.

I may be wrong, but I don't think I've heard of any Sikh soldiers committing suicide or fratricide in J&K. If the atrocities in Kashmir really weighed that heavily on their minds, you'd see incidents that alluded to that.
 
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Why such a destructive, hate filled mindset?

Why can't you look beyond this greedy, petty desire to forcibly occupy Kashmiris & perpetuate the conflict with Pakistan, causing even more death and suffering for generations to come?

Why not think about the broader picture and longer term, of the potential economic, cultural and people to people ties between two nations at peace (and South Asia more broadly) were the J&K dispute resolved.

I would have been inclined towards further discussion, "If"

1. It was about people of Kashmir at all. I mean the whole of Kashmir. When Pakistan talks about Kashmir its about the Muslim Kashmir and not the other parts of Kashmir for obvious reasons. ,
2. Because if it was about people of Kashmir then kasmiri Pandits would have been still there and not driven out after being terrorised, massacred plundered so much so that they became refugees in their own country.
3. There is absolutely no guarantee that Pakistan (especially establishment) will drop the idea of disturbing India "after" Kashmir 'if' resolved.
4. Terrorism is REAL from Pakistan (please no sermons here, we all know). You wont stop that. So no talks again.
5. India doesnt see any real financial benefit with Pakistan. We have been doing well without Pakistan and if we need to think about financials then, the onus is on Pakistan. It needs to show that it is real player in economics.
6. In today's world no country will ever give an inch or even start to talk without any strategic gain. We have done land exchange deals with Bangladesh. We have also a water sharing deal going on with Bangladesh. Frankly, with Pakistan we stand to gain nothing.
7. Lets talk about what % of kashmir wants to live with Pakistan, by land mass it amounts to 20-30% and by allegiance it would be even less. Even kashmiris admit that Pakistan has done more damage to Kashmiri cause than anybody or anything, because you still have the image of an "Invader" to them.


The last point.

Pakistan doesnt have a civil establishment to deal with another civil establishment. It does have a civil society, but an irrelevant, undermined and voiceless society. What you, or anyone else in the forum says doesnt warrant a discussion in matters of the states.
 
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1. It was about people of Kashmir at all. I mean the whole of Kashmir. When Pakistan talks about Kashmir its about the Muslim Kashmir and not the other parts of Kashmir for obvious reasons. ,

Off course at the end of the day Pakistan is a Muslim country and it was based on the form of a homeland for Muslims based in the subcontinent.

2. Because if it was about people of Kashmir then kasmiri Pandits would have been still there and not driven out after being terrorised, massacred plundered so much so that they became refugees in their own country.

I mean, its unfortunate what happened to them but its not like the Muslims in Kashmir are faring any better. They are living in an open air prison where there is no such thing as human rights. Indian Security Forces have committed the worst form of atrocities, not to mention the rape of Kashmiri Women. This back lash you're seeing against Indian Security Forces, its by ordinary Kashmiri people.

3. There is absolutely no guarantee that Pakistan (especially establishment) will drop the idea of disturbing India "after" Kashmir 'if' resolved.

Why would Pakistan disturb India? Its India that has the aspirations of being a Global Power and the strongest player in the subcontinent.

4. Terrorism is REAL from Pakistan (please no sermons here, we all know). You wont stop that. So no talks again.

Yes but India has been supporting terrorism too. Baloch Terrorist Leaders openly live in New Delhi and attend conferences in New Delhi.

5. India doesnt see any real financial benefit with Pakistan. We have been doing well without Pakistan and if we need to think about financials then, the onus is on Pakistan. It needs to show that it is real player in economics.

Same. Pakistan has no financial benefits either as it has continued to operate perfectly fine without India.

6. In today's world no country will ever give an inch or even start to talk without any strategic gain. We have done land exchange deals with Bangladesh. We have also a water sharing deal going on with Bangladesh. Frankly, with Pakistan we stand to gain nothing.

What you will gain is peace. Not sure what that is worth to you.

7. Lets talk about what % of kashmir wants to live with Pakistan, by land mass it amounts to 20-30% and by allegiance it would be even less. Even kashmiris admit that Pakistan has done more damage to Kashmiri cause than anybody or anything, because you still have the image of an "Invader" to them.


If that was true, ordinary Kashmiri men wouldn't have picked up their weapons and attacked Indian Security Forces. Right now all the attack on Indian soldiers are being carried by local Kashmiris.

Pakistan doesnt have a civil establishment to deal with another civil establishment. It does have a civil society, but an irrelevant, undermined and voiceless society. What you, or anyone else in the forum says doesnt warrant a discussion in matters of the states.

Same can be applied to you

India is currently ruled by a racist and bigot who openly has been called the Butcher of Gujrat. His lackeys and party openly calls for the genocide and elimination of Muslims in India. That really ties our hands too.
 
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I would have been inclined towards further discussion, "If"

1. It was about people of Kashmir at all. I mean the whole of Kashmir. When Pakistan talks about Kashmir its about the Muslim Kashmir and not the other parts of Kashmir for obvious reasons. ,
2. Because if it was about people of Kashmir then kasmiri Pandits would have been still there and not driven out after being terrorised, massacred plundered so much so that they became refugees in their own country.
3. There is absolutely no guarantee that Pakistan (especially establishment) will drop the idea of disturbing India "after" Kashmir 'if' resolved.
4. Terrorism is REAL from Pakistan (please no sermons here, we all know). You wont stop that. So no talks again.
5. India doesnt see any real financial benefit with Pakistan. We have been doing well without Pakistan and if we need to think about financials then, the onus is on Pakistan. It needs to show that it is real player in economics.
6. In today's world no country will ever give an inch or even start to talk without any strategic gain. We have done land exchange deals with Bangladesh. We have also a water sharing deal going on with Bangladesh. Frankly, with Pakistan we stand to gain nothing.
7. Lets talk about what % of kashmir wants to live with Pakistan, by land mass it amounts to 20-30% and by allegiance it would be even less. Even kashmiris admit that Pakistan has done more damage to Kashmiri cause than anybody or anything, because you still have the image of an "Invader" to them.


The last point.

Pakistan doesnt have a civil establishment to deal with another civil establishment. It does have a civil society, but an irrelevant, undermined and voiceless society. What you, or anyone else in the forum says doesnt warrant a discussion in matters of the states.
No need to hide behind excuses - it's patently clear that India's intransigence over Kashmir is strictly because of her greed and expansionist nature.

The fact is that the only moral, ethical, just and democratic solution is allowing the Kashmiris to vote in a UN led plebiscite to choose between India, Pakistan or independence. What solution can be more 'about the people' than allowing the people to choose?

With respect to the Pandits - they can be tracked down, verified by a UN panel and their votes counted. But while the Pandits can be resettled & their voices largely heard, the demographics of Jammu have forever been changed by the massacre of upwards of 200,000 Muslims by the Maharajah between October and November 1947. Can you imagine what kind of impact the massacre of 200,000 Muslims had on the demographics of Kashmir over 70 plus years?

And if the Kashmiris really hate Pakistan and believe that Pakistan caused great damage to Kashmir, then that will be obvious in a plebiscite. The thing is that these lies that Indians feed themselves to feel good about their inhuman and unjust occupation of J&K and the atrocities they perpetrate, are just that lies and can be easily debunked via plebiscite, which is why so many Indians refuse to allow a plebiscite.
 
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Off course at the end of the day Pakistan is a Muslim country and it was based on the form of a homeland for Muslims based in the subcontinent.

Well thats the common argument. The other side of the argument is that, princely states can "choose" to take sides. Kashmir was invaded when it was doing what was handed over to it during Independence.

I mean, its unfortunate what happened to them but its not like the Muslims in Kashmir are faring any better. They are living in an open air prison where there is no such thing as human rights. Indian Security Forces have committed the worst form of atrocities, not to mention the rape of Kashmiri Women. This back lash you're seeing against Indian Security Forces, its by ordinary Kashmiri people.

I can conclude by saying what is happening to Kashmiris as "unfortunate" now and close all the gates for discussion.

Why would Pakistan disturb India? Its India that has the aspirations of being a Global Power and the strongest player in the subcontinent.

Every country has aspirations, including you. Its not wrong to have that. If you dont want to disturb India then support our permanent seat on security counsel, may be we will give you some Kashmir, ready?

Yes but India has been supporting terrorism too. Baloch Terrorist Leaders openly live in New Delhi and attend conferences in New Delhi.

For a country like India, if we have the will, then we can do some real damage to Pakistan by helping Balochs, Sindhis etc. Cuz we have a bigger bag and access to unlimited resources. There might be some support, but unlike you we dont have designated terrorists on our names from Baluchistan.

Same. Pakistan has no financial benefits either as it has continued to operate perfectly fine without India.

Someone else said, you can offer financial benefits. I didnt. BTW your financials are looking damn good. None of my concern anyway.

What you will gain is peace. Not sure what that is worth to you.

Only if we were gaining anything from peace, I would have given it a thought.

If that was true, ordinary Kashmiri men wouldn't have picked up their weapons and attacked Indian Security Forces. Right now all the attack on Indian soldiers are being carried by local Kashmiris.

Nonsense, we all know whats what.

Same can be applied to you

India is currently ruled by a racist and bigot who openly has been called the Butcher of Gujrat. His lackeys and party openly calls for the genocide and elimination of Muslims in India. That really ties our hands too.

Its currently ruled, if you say so then what about last 70 years? You had your chance you missed the bus.

The fact is that the only moral, ethical, just and democratic solution is allowing the Kashmiris to vote in a UN led plebiscite to choose between India, Pakistan or independence. What solution can be more 'about the people' than allowing the people to choose?

They were already such a state. That status quo was changed by Pakistan in 1947. Advocating of morale and humanitarian grounds is the last thing Pakistan needs to do as they were the ones who destroyed Kasmir at will then and destroying kashmir even now. Only that "at will" part is not there, so thank the Indian government for that.
What I mean to say that ,you cant have the cake and eat it.

With respect to the Pandits - they can be tracked down, verified by a UN panel and their votes counted. But while the Pandits can be resettled & their voices largely heard, the demographics of Jammu have forever been changed by the massacre of upwards of 200,000 Muslims by the Maharajah between October and November 1947. Can you imagine what kind of impact the massacre of 200,000 Muslims had on the demographics of Kashmir over 70 plus years?

I really dont care what the Maharaja did. Our role comes after it.
 
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Kashmir was invaded when it was doing what was handed over to it during Independence.
What was the ruling Dogra clan doing when it was so rudely interrupted by Pakistan? Your timelines fail to mention the massacres of Muslims in Jammu as one of the key activities being conducted by Hari and his pals. It is absolutely right and proper that regular and irregular Pakistanis and anyone with a shred of decency stormed Kashmir to firstly thwart Hari Singh's plans for annexation and secondly to attempt to bring this filth to a court martial in Islamabad for crimes against humanity.
 
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In summary, 3 attacks against hindu occupiers today. at least 5 killed and 10+ injured (several critical). One civilian was martyred.

All freedom fighters managed to escape. Expect attacks against hindu occupiers tomorrow as well!

Op Success! : )

Fine let's resolve Kashmir. You expect India to resolve Kashmir with terrorists killing soldiers and civilians there ? You expect India to come to the table with a gun pointed to its head ? Please let's just forget about it. India and Pakistan may resolve Kashmir one day but it isn't going to happen till the time these Hizbul Mujahideens, Lashkars, Jaish's and the like continue to exist.

India will kill some, they will kill some and the cycle will continue.

Your delusion is in thinking that is Pakistan pointing the gun at India's head. It's a local resistance, the consequence of India's oppressive policies in Kashmir.
 
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After a long time i have come across an Afghan that believes like you. Your posts are a treat for sore eyes.
May Allah give our Nations the victory against Kuffair and Haq shall prevail.

There are many Afghans who support our cause and the cause of Kashmiri kin.

Do not get disillusioned by the Kabul sellouts, they are a dying breed.

Why would they?

They are soldiers, some of the best ones in the Indian military. They will follow orders like good soldiers do.

I may be wrong, but I don't think I've heard of any Sikh soldiers committing suicide or fratricide in J&K. If the atrocities in Kashmir really weighed that heavily on their minds, you'd see incidents that alluded to that.

It is only Pakistanis and Kashmiris for now, alone in the world, there is no one else. We should get used to this. We have Allah swt barakat to shine our swords and instill strength in our hearts.

Indian Muslims have their own struggles and reality to deal with. Afghans are not yet able to fully help us as they have done in the past. Iranians and Arabs playing politics and watching. Turks dealing with mountains of enemies of multiple fronts.

Do not expect anyone else, but rely on your own self. Pakistan needs to learn the way of our ancestor Ghazis. Strength is not in NATO, China, Russians, or anyone else, true strength comes from within.

Mu'min fears no one but Allah swt, and welcomes death if it comes.

Shuhadah are not dead, they are alive. Allah swt is pleased with them and they are pleased with Allah swt.

I am so proud of my country today, and proud of Kashmiris too.


Today Shaheed Burhan Wani looks down also with pride at his people.
 
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