Big Win- Indian Muslim Women(Supreme Court Declares triple talaq Practice 'Unconstitutional)

[padamchen]

2. There is no legal scope for halala. After the third talaq a couple cannot re-marry, unless the woman has re-married someone else and that marriage has come to a natural conclusion. You cannot engineer a short term marriage with the intention of ending it to then remarry the perso you first divorced.

2:30
"
And if he has divorced her [for the third time], then she is not lawful to him afterward until [after] she marries a husband other than him. And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies], there is no blame upon the woman and her former husband for returning to each other if they think that they can keep [within] the limits of Allah . These are the limits of Allah, which He makes clear to a people who know."

As posted by @I.R.A

Cheers, Doc

 

[313ghazi]

2:30
"
And if he has divorced her [for the third time], then she is not lawful to him afterward until [after] she marries a husband other than him. And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies], there is no blame upon the woman and her former husband for returning to each other if they think that they can keep [within] the limits of Allah . These are the limits of Allah, which He makes clear to a people who know."

As posted by @I.R.A

Cheers, Doc

Yes, that has already been explained to your feeble mind.

"And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies],"

This is what i mean by the marriage having a natural conclusion, not a socially engineered one. There are thousands of experts who have come to the same conclusion.

 

[ashok mourya]

Indian Muslim mullahs crying as they are better islamist than whole Muslim world where this instant talaq a biddat is banned...

 

[padamchen]

Yes, that has already been explained to your feeble mind.

"And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies],"

This is what i mean by the marriage having a natural conclusion, not a socially engineered one. There are thousands of experts who have come to the same conclusion.

Why are you being rude?

Is a divorce a "natural" conclusion or a "socially engineered" one?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Pakistani sipahi]

2:30
"
And if he has divorced her [for the third time], then she is not lawful to him afterward until [after] she marries a husband other than him. And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies], there is no blame upon the woman and her former husband for returning to each other if they think that they can keep [within] the limits of Allah . These are the limits of Allah, which He makes clear to a people who know."

As posted by @I.R.A

Cheers, Doc

Yaar, Urdu/Hindi samajhtay ho na !

To suno mene pehlay bhi kaha ke verse ko pooray context mein dekho is se pichli verse talaq ke prodeure par hai . Usi ko dekhtay huay is verse ka interpretation hai. jo mene Halala ka meaning diya hai wohi theek hai aain baain shaain nahi chalay ga . Bat sirf itni hai talaq ki niyyat se divorced aurat naye banday se shadi nahi kar sakti .

 

[padamchen]

Bat sirf itni hai talaq ki niyyat se divorced aurat naye banday se shadi nahi kar sakti .

Woh theek hai.

Lekin Ghazi bol raha tha natural vs socially engineered.

Uss baat par tipni ho rahi thi. By quoting the relevant verse.

Its a loophole which should not be a workable one if ALL divorces are done strictly per the waiting period.

The problem in India (as I mentioned to @I.R.A in a previous post) is that the lady is made to marry the maulvi, the maulvi actually sleeps with her, for ONE NIGHT, and then she goes back to the first husband.

What's that all about? Why would a guy divorce a woman, have her sleep with another man, and then take her back again?

I can see the woman's side in this. She is desperate. She needs the support. She needs to get the father of her children back. She is thus going to grit her teeth and sleep with another guy if that's what it takes.

Have you seen the movie "Indecent Proposal" ???

Cheers, Doc

 

[I.R.A]

What is "the term"?

When the society was being reformed many new laws were being implemented based on guidance from immutable instructions in form of Quran, traditional rituals and practices were challenged and gradually abolished........ these traditional practices included looking down on women, treating them as commodity that one owns, denying them their active status and role as a thinking breathing human and worst burying infant female children ...... once it was clearly told that women are not your property and they have an equal responsibility and role in society, their status and dignity as a human restored, and marriage declared as a social contract and a healthy relation, with roles and responsibilities of both spouses clearly defined, and impact of violation of any responsibility on society as a whole weighed and told .......... were the terms / boundaries / laws given by ALLAH in form of Quran ......... healthy law abiding society where humans are respected and not treated like peasants / slaves / minions.

The Messenger (Peace be upon him) advised his adopted son "Not to divorce his wife and keep her ........ the reason was complying with many requirements and that it would be made public, will be brought in front of society and many legal requirements would have to be fulfilled, ............. however, the followers totally misinterpreted that verse and made it a debacle of proportions which I can never explain to a thinking non Muslim.

The laws society had implemented based on immutable guidance given in Quran were the terms or would be the terms.

There is no mention of time gap between the divorces.

My above mentioned argument that marriage / divorce is going to have impact on a society .......... so anything that impacts a society ..... the society needs to have a say in it or no? Second thing is as I mentioned guidelines and laws mentioned in Quran are immutable ......... Quran has purposefully left many matters open for the Muslim state / society for themselves to decide according to their own times needs. This is why I say Quran is for all the humans to come because it is full of wisdom.

There is no mention of consummation of the second "interval" marriage. Or is consummation a pre-reuisite for any marriage to be deemed legal? And is that mentioned somewhere else?

Forget consummation yaaar ........... look at it this way .......... the divorced woman is being permitted to marry any other person after divorce and necessary interval, no one can deny her that right and decision............ and then again permission is given to the woman that if the second husband divorces her or he dies ....... she can remarry her original husband ....... no one would raise objections ............ can't you see how wisely the woman has been given the protection and permission ........... how could you because the idiots made it a halalalalalala thingy .......... how can I get her back on my bed ........... the idiots fail to see the genuine issue being addressed.
Or in your society you can see what happens to the young widows.

What is the meaning of "ransom" herself?

If the woman feels she won't be able to fulfill her role and wants to quit the marriage and related responsibilities .... there is no harm in her offering money instead her husband so he may leaver her.

I did not understand the significance of the breastfeeding and weaning process to be followed. Does it allude to
- maintenance (if so, is the father to pay within his means ONLY till she is breastfeeding the baby??)
- child custody (who gets to keep the child?)

The last one just to let you know to which extent the rights have been protected and considered .........

2:30
"
And if he has divorced her [for the third time], then she is not lawful to him afterward until [after] she marries a husband other than him. And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies], there is no blame upon the woman and her former husband for returning to each other if they think that they can keep [within] the limits of Allah . These are the limits of Allah, which He makes clear to a people who know."

As posted by @I.R.A

Cheers, Doc

Please see my detailed post on this @313ghazi is correct in his understanding.

The problem in India (as I mentioned to @I.R.A in a previous post) is that the lady is made to marry the maulvi, the maulvi actually sleeps with her, for ONE NIGHT, and then she goes back to the first husband.

That is simple plain rape ............. no ifs and no buts. May be the reason indian molvis want this instant talak to stay.

 

[313ghazi]

Why are you being rude?

Is a divorce a "natural" conclusion or a "socially engineered" one?

Cheers, Doc

Sorry, i take that back, sometimes i pre-judge peoples intentions - i shouldn't do that.

A very basic fundemental of Islam is intention. Right and wrong, applications of rules, are all based on environment and intentions. A Muslims is rewarded for having the intention to do a good deed, even if he did not do it. A Muslim is even rewarded for having the intention to do a bad deed and then actively refraining from it. You are not a sinner if you unintentionally consume something haram. You are not a sinner if you consume haram if you genuinely felt it was the only way to survive.

If you enter a marriage with the intention of using it as a vehicle to hook back up with a previous partner, then you will have sinned. If you then actually divorce the second partner deliberately to be with the first one again you have sinned. That process there is halala, a marriage setup for this use only - that is prohibited.

If you are in a second marriage and you divorce for reasons that are genuinely linked to your relationship in that marriage, there is no sin. At that point you may marry whoever you choose, including your first partner.

Nobody knows exactly why the rules are this way. There will be social benefits and possibly constraints too. As a Muslim you submit to the will of Allah. If Allah wants it to be that way, it is our duty to live that way - if we wish to fulfill our duty.

 

[Pakistani sipahi]

Woh theek hai.

Lekin Ghazi bol raha tha natural vs socially engineered.

Uss baat par tipni ho rahi thi. By quoting the relevant verse.

Its a loophole which should not be a workable one if ALL divorces are done strictly per the waiting period.

The problem in India (as I mentioned to @I.R.A in a previous post) is that the lady is made to marry the maulvi, the maulvi actually sleeps with her, for ONE NIGHT, and then she goes back to the first husband.

What's that all about? Why would a guy divorce a woman, have her sleep with another man, and then take her back again?

I can see the woman's side in this. She is desperate. She needs the support. She needs to get the father of her children back. She is thus going to grit her teeth and sleep with another guy if that's what it takes.

Have you seen the movie "Indecent Proposal" ???

Cheers, Doc

Bhai hum to inko is experience se bacha rahay hain . Talaq ke waqt different sittings mein sochnay poora moqa diya ja raha hai udhar hi apnay bachon ke abba se sulah kar lo halala tak baat hi na aaye.

 

[veg]

صحیح بخاری، کتاب اللباس (لنک):

عکرمہ نے اور انہیں رفاعہ رضی اللہ عنہ نے کہ انہوں نے اپنی بیوی کو طلاق دے دی تھی ۔ پھر ان سے عبدالرحمٰن بن زبیر قرظی رضی اللہ عنہ نے نکاح کر لیا تھا ۔ عائشہ رضی اللہ عنہا نے بیان کیا کہ وہ خاتون سبز اوڑھنی اورڑھے ہوئے تھیں ، انہوں نے عائشہ رضی اللہ عنہا سے ( اپنے شوہر کی ) شکایت کی اور اپنے جسم پر سبز نشانات ( چوٹ کے ) دکھائے پھر جب رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم تشریف لائے تو ( جیسا کہ عادت ہے ) عکرمہ نے بیان کیا کہ عورتیں آپس میں ایک دوسرے کی مددکرتی ہیں ۔ عائشہ رضی اللہ عنہا نے ( آنحضرت صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم سے ) کہا کہ کسی ایمان والی عورت کا میں نے اس سے زیادہ برا حال نہیں دیکھا ان کا جسم (مار کھا کھا کر) ان کے کپڑے سے بھی زیادہ برا حال ہو گیا ہے ۔ بیان کیا کہ ان کے شوہر نے بھی سن لیا تھا کہ بیوی حضور اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم کے پاس گئی ہیں چنانچہ وہ بھی آ گئے اور ان کے ساتھ ان کے دو بچے ان سے پہلی بیوی کے تھے ان کی بیوی نے کہا اللہ کی قسم مجھے ان سے کوئی اورشکایت نہیں البتہ ان کے ساتھ اس سے زیادہ اور کچھ نہیں جس سے میرا کچھ نہیں ہوتا ۔ انہوں نے اپنے کپڑے کا پلو پکڑ کر اشارہ کیا ( یعنی ان کے شوہر کمزور ہیں ) اس پر ان کے شوہر نے کہا یا رسول اللہ ! واللہ یہ جھوٹ بولتی ہے میں تو اس کو ( جماع کے وقت ) چمڑے کی طرح ادھیڑ کر رکھ دیتا ہوں مگر یہ شریر ہے یہ مجھے پسند نہیں کرتی اور رفاعہ کے یہاں دوبارہ جانا چاہتی ہے ۔ حضور اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم نے اس پر فرمایا کہ اگر یہ بات ہے تو تمہارے لیے وہ ( رفاعہ ) اس وقت تک حلال نہیں ہوں گے جب تک یہ ( عبدالرحمٰن دوسرے شوہر ) تمہارا مزا نہ چکھ لیں ۔

چنانچہ:

(1) بیوی کو مار مار کے اس کے نیل ڈال دیے جاتے ہیں۔

(2) آپ دیکھئے کہ عورت کو پہلے شوہر سے پیار ہے اور وہ مضطرب ہے کہ اپنے پہلے شوہر کے پاس جائے، مگر مذہب نے اس پر آسودگی کے تمام تر دروازے بند کر دیے ہیں۔

(3) اور یہاں ایک خاندان نہیں، بلکہ 2 خاندان تباہ ہو رہے ہیں۔ پہلے خاوند کا گھر بھی ویران ہے، اور دوسرے خاوند کا گھر بھی مار کٹائی کا اڈہ بنا ہوا ہے اور گھر میں زبردست ٹینشن پھیلی ہوئی ہے۔

(4) بالیقین اس کیس میں پہلے خاوند سے اس عورت کے بچے مکمل طور پر تباہ ہو جائیں گے کہ جہاں ان کی ماں کی ایسے بری طریقے سے پٹائی کی جا رہی ہے کہ اس کے نیل پڑ رہے ہیں۔

(5) پیار کو کبھی بھی پابند سلاسل نہیں کیا جانا چاہیے۔ اگر اس عورت کو پہلے خاوند سے پیار ہے، اور وہ اپنی زندگی اور اپنا جسم صرف اس کے ساتھ ہی تصور کر سکتی ہے، تو پھر یہ ظلم عظیم ہے کہ عورت کو مجبور کیا جائے کہ وہ اس پورے پراسیس سے گذرے۔

(6) یقینی طور پر دوسرے شوہر سے سیکس کرنے کے بعد پہلے شوہر کی نظر میں بھی اس کی قدر و قیمت کم ہو چکی ہو گی اور وہ اسے پہلے کی طرح پیار نہیں کر سکے گا۔

(7) واحد عذر یہ پیش ہوتا ہے کہ ان میاں بیوی کو طلاق لینے سے قبل ان تمام پہلوؤں پر سوچنا چاہیے تھا۔ لیکن سوچئے اگر عورت شروع سے ہی بے قصور ہو، اور طلاق دینا اس کے پہلے شوہر کی غلطی ہو، تو پھر بے چاری عورت کو اس تمام پراسیس سے گذرنے پر مجبور کرنا اس کے ساتھ کتنی بڑی زیادتی اور ظلم ہے۔ اس ناکردہ گناہ کے باوجود اس کی زندگی تباہ کر دی جاتی ہے، اس کے بچوں کی زندگیاں تباہ کر دی جاتی ہیں۔ ​

For my Indian friends, let me translate what I wrote about Halalah above in Urdu.
According to this Hadith of Prophet (link), the 2nd husband beat the woman so badly that her body became blue, but Prophet Muhammad was satisfied with this brutal beating and telling her to stay with the 2nd husband.
This woman wants to return to the first husband, but religion closed all doors upon her, and her fate is only to get the beating. Not only 1, but 2 families are being destroyed here.
And for surely the children of this poor woman are also going to be ruined in the house of 2nd husband where their mother gets daily brutal beating.
Love is natural. If this woman can only imagine her life with the father of her children, then why to stop her?

The only defence that is presented is this that both 1st husband and the wife should have thought about the consequences before the divorce.

But just image that the woman is innocent and it was the fault of first husband to divorce her. In this case, why the poor woman has to pay such heavy price and should go through all this torture and why her life and the life of her children are ruined?

 

[The_Showstopper]

Fair enough.

Give them reservations from Hindu quota.

100% reservation for all I care.

Leave 21% seats untouched. And closed to Hindus.

Cheers, Doc

Now that is interesting. If backward Hindus are to get reservation, then the reservation should be based on their population share. Why are people of other religion forced to give up their share when backwards among them can't even get it.

 

[padamchen]

Now that is interesting. If backward Hindus are to get reservation, then the reservation should be based on their population share. Why are people of other religion forced to give up their share when backwards among them can't even get it.

That's the essence of what I was arguing for 15 pages.

Hindus, clean up your mess.

Cheers, Doc

 

[The_Showstopper]

That's the essence of what I was arguing for 15 pages.

Hindus, clean up your mess.

Cheers, Doc

Whenever I discussed about reservation, many Sanghi posters here very much like their handlers state as to how reservation can't be given based on religion whereas it was them who were exclusively enjoying the benefits of reservation.

I know that.

Same thing @noksss is saying.

Lekin clusterpuk kisne kiya yeh?

Cheers, Doc



Muslims get quotas. Just not as Muslims.

See above.

I believe they get the same amount as Hindu dalits do. As dalits.

Cheers, Doc

No, Muslim dalits don't get the reservation as Hindu dalits. Once they convert to Islam, they lose their status of Dalit. Hence many Hindutva orgs are marketing Ghar wapsi while promising them reservation.

Ghar wapsi blues: Why UP Hindutva groups are avoiding the Dalit Muslims they lured back to Hinduism

Source: https://scroll.in/article/841812/gh...the-dalit-muslims-they-lured-back-to-hinduism

 

[padamchen]

Whenever I discussed about reservation, many Sanghi posters here very much like their handlers state as to how reservation can't be given based on religion whereas it was them who were exclusively enjoying the benefits of reservation.


No, Muslim dalits don't get the reservation as Hindu dalits. Once they convert to Islam, they lose their status of Dalit. Hence many Hindutva orgs are marketing Ghar wapsi while promising them reservation.

Ghar wapsi blues: Why UP Hindutva groups are avoiding the Dalit Muslims they lured back to Hinduism

Source: https://scroll.in/article/841812/gh...the-dalit-muslims-they-lured-back-to-hinduism

No bro. Please read all the posts. Its different in different states. Muslims do come under OBC quota.

Yesterday Owaisi was trying to ask for Muslim quota.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Stephen Cohen]

All Muslim men who have given triple talaq should be dragged to courts
and prosecuted