Bangladesh Air Force

[Shahzaz ud din]

And I don't think PAF is ready to export jF17 BLKIII as well, still they worry about the RAW stuff

Brother you nailed it.No body should even think about this in prevailing situation that PAK will even sell JF-17 model to BD. Reason behind is that the Indian influence in BD is at the peak right now.So PAK cannot take any risk.RAW can stage few mishaps very easily and then game will be over.There will be full fledged propaganda against technology and capability of JF-17 all over the world. JF-17 is in development phase so PAK cannot afford to take any kind of risk.
I think PAK need 250 JF-17 of all blocks I,II and III.This target will be achieved in 2022.Till
then PAK will accept few small orders from friendly countries only.Then PAK will move to its ultimate project of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).
The AZM (resolve ) of BAF and PAF is quite different in scale and capability. BAF needs limited number of planes for border patrol where as PAK striving hard to be self sufficient in this field with the help of .
Idea of self sufficiency is far more superior then getting expensive planes with string attached with no guarantee of spare parts.It does not matter how your kid look like but you still love him the most. JF-17 is the great achievement of a developing country like Pakistan.
JF-17 and PAF are pride of nation and we know its way forward

There is only one possibility when PAK could take some calculated risk if BD is ready for long term dealing. If BD wants self sufficiency then it should follow PAK route.Order 100-200 planes with overhauling facility and complete TOT.It will be a great breakthrough in terms of technology and geopolitics of entire region.


If BD is ready for joint venture to make 200 state of the art JF-17 then you are
otherwise .

Note: Please don't compare JF-17 with other planes unnecessarily.It is very close to our hearts .It really hurts when somebody criticize JF-17 in jealousy.

Specially BD will be glad to know that JF 17 block 3 is nearing production which will be a 4+ generation fighter.This happened only in space of 15 years that JF 17 is entering its third version with already five JF 17 squadrons operational and JF 17 used in precision strikes .

JF-17 Block 3 should have following features :
1) AESA radar
2) CFT
3) IRST
4) Datalink with Erieye and ZDK03
5) In-Flight Refueling
6) RAM paint
7) Integration of A-Darter missiles with HOBS capability and HMS/HMD (South African Archer / Denel Cobra HMD)
8) 13 hardpoints
9) WS-13 TVC engine with 22000+ lb thrust with afterburner

 

[Bilal9]

So then - we have to really look at the advantages of Chinese and Russian platforms and if they outweigh the high MTBO and reliability figures of Western Platforms, besides simply cost, which does not apply any longer. And Westerners are liable to be just as reliable or unreliable a supplier.

We are no longer price buyers, we need to look at quality and reliability. Over time, a reliable platform costs less anyway. In Bengali - we have a saying 'Shostar tin obostha'. Cheap is just that, cheap.

Bangladesh AF experience with Yak 130 AJT, and even worse, Chinese K-8 AJT, has been pretty sub-par. If these rather simple training platforms are this bad, do we need to take a chance with the backbone MRCA and MMRCA platforms being Russian and Chinese? Maybe quantity component can be cheap for fielding large numbers of fighters, but quality component too? I have my doubts.

I believe we have seen @Bilal Khan (Quwa) bhai's analysis already a few pages back. Please review it again. That was a very realistic and factual analysis of Bangladesh situation and what we need to do going forward.

I don't think the argument "We are a third world nation with no alternative other than Russian and Chinese" flies any longer (no pun intended). At some point, we have to get out of that mindset.

Bangladesh may not be in India's position yet - to support Multiple types of platforms, but there is no denying that effort has to be made towards incorporating and transitioning to Western platforms at some point and Bangladesh has to get there. In a few months we will no longer belong to the coterie of LDC nations when it is formally announced. We are no longer a foreign aid recipient, we are donors and foreign investors. If not now - then when?

It has become plain and clear through the Rohingya debacle that Russians and Chinese are definitely not more reliable development partners than Western ones. If both types of vendors are equally (un)reliable and equally costly, then shouldn't we choose the best one regardless of political camp?

 

[Avicenna]

Based on my non scientific non professional opinion, I would rather have the Gripen or J-10C.

I DO NOT want any MiG-35.

So then - we have to really look at the advantages of Chinese and Russian platforms and if they outweigh the high MTBO and reliability figures of Western Platforms, besides simply cost, which does not apply any longer. And Westerners are liable to be just as reliable or unreliable a supplier.

We are no longer price buyers, we need to look at quality and reliability. Over time, a reliable platform costs less anyway. In Bengali - we have a saying 'Shostar tin obostha'. Cheap is just that, cheap.

Bangladesh AF experience with Yak 130 AJT, and even worse, Chinese K-8 AJT, has been pretty sub-par. If these rather simple training platforms are this bad, do we need to take a chance with the backbone MRCA and MMRCA platforms being Russian and Chinese? Maybe quantity component can be cheap for fielding large numbers of fighters, but quality component too? I have my doubts.

I believe we have seen @Bilal Khan (Quwa) bhai's analysis already a few pages back. Please review it again. That was a very realistic and factual analysis of Bangladesh situation and what we need to do going forward.

I don't think the argument "We are a third world nation with no alternative other than Russian and Chinese" flies any longer (no pun intended). At some point, we have to get out of that mindset.

Bangladesh may not be in India's position yet - to support Multiple types of platforms, but there is no denying that effort has to be made towards incorporating and transitioning to Western platforms at some point and Bangladesh has to get there. In a few months we will no longer belong to the coterie of LDC nations when it is formally announced. We are no longer a foreign aid recipient, we are donors and foreign investors. If not now - then when?

It has become plain and clear through the Rohingya debacle that Russians and Chinese are definitely not more reliable development partners than Western ones. If both types of vendors are equally (un)reliable and equally costly, then shouldn't we choose the best one regardless of political camp?

Just a thought. I wonder if Bangladesh can't lease some examples of ex-Swedish Air Force Gripen C/D in the interim much like Hungary and Czech Republic. This will keep immediate costs down. At the same time perhaps buy some time to outright purchase Gripen E/F if the economy improves more.

Who even makes these procurement decisions for the BAF? Is there a lack of imagination at play?

Regardless, politically Bangladesh is a moderate, potentially West leaning nation. I can't see any political hurdles to get the Gripen if Bangladesh has the money.

@A.P. Richelieu @UKBengali @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[Bilal9]

Just a thought. I wonder if Bangladesh can't lease some examples of ex-Swedish Air Force Gripen C/D in the interim much like Hungary and Czech Republic. This will keep immediate costs down. At the same time perhaps buy some time to outright purchase Gripen E/F if the economy improves more.

Who even makes these procurement decisions for the BAF? Is there a lack of imagination at play?

Regardless, politically Bangladesh is a moderate, potentially West leaning nation. I can't see any political hurdles to get the Gripen if Bangladesh has the money.

@A.P. Richelieu @UKBengali

I concur 100%. If possible we should lease a few of these fighters to see the prospect (adaptation to Bangladesh conditions etc.) before outright purchase. That being said - please see the following (Thai AF bought 12 in 2008, and they went full bore orders for 12 more in 2013 along with Erieye radar and CandC suite). Thailand Weather and scenario is not a heck of a lot different than ours, their training and standards may be a bit better though.

How Thai Air Force acquire Gripen fleets

national January 14, 2017 18:53

By The Nation

Thailand aims to become a leading power in Asean by having one of the strongest air forces in the region by the end of this decade.

In 2008, the Royal Thai Air Force spent up to Bt34 billion on the purchase of 12 Swedish-made Gripen fighter jets as part of an effort to replace the ageing F-5A/B jets.

The JAS 39 Gripen is a light, single-engine, multi-role fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company Saab.

The Royal Thai Air Force ordered a complete aircraft and command and control system from the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration in a government-to-government deal, according to GlobalSecurity.org website.

The order includes a first batch of six Gripen C/D with associated equipment and services, one Saab 340 aircraft equipped with Erieye radar (AEW), a Saab 340 for transport and training plus an integrated command and control system with data links, the site said.

The second batch of six Gripen C fighters and another Saab 340 Erieye AEW was ordered in 2010 and the delivery completed in 2013.

The Gripen are now based at the Surat Thani airbase, where they replaced a depleted and rapidly ageing squadron of F5 fighters.

In early September 2013, during the delivery of three Gripen fighter jets, which was the last batch of the total of 12 Gripen jets, one of them was struck by lightning while flying over India. The accident caused minor damage to its electronic system, authorities said.

Later, while presiding over a ceremony to commission the Gripen Integrated Air Defence System at the Wing 7 Air Force base in Surat Thani, then Supreme Commander General Thanasak Patimapragorn, who is now a deputy premier, said that the Thai Air Force’s procurement of the Gripen fighters would make it a leading force in the Asean by 2019.

The Gripen jets will be an integral part in the building up of an Armed Forces network that will boost national defences.

Thailand is now the only country in the region with the Swedish planes in its fleet.

 

[帅的一匹]

A PDF member tell me that There is no permanent friend and enemy in this world, so BAF just need to take the best offer.
I think China is doing fine with BD in the long term.

 

[Avicenna]

A PDF member tell me that There is no permanent friend and enemy in this world, so BAF just need to take the best offer.
I think China is doing fine with BD in the long term.

Bangladesh needs China. And I advocate for a strong China-Bangladesh relationship.

However, a mix of East and West would be good for BAF.

 

[帅的一匹]

Bangladesh needs China. And I advocate for a strong China-Bangladesh relationship.

However, a mix of East and West would be good for BAF.

Absolutely

 

[Avicenna]

I concur 100%. If possible we should lease a few of these fighters to see the prospect (adaptation to Bangladesh conditions etc.) before outright purchase. That being said - please see the following (Thai AF bought 12 in 2008, and they went full bore orders for 12 more in 2013 along with Erieye radar and CandC suite). Thailand Weather and scenario is not a heck of a lot different than ours, their training and standards may be a bit better though.

How Thai Air Force acquire Gripen fleets

national January 14, 2017 18:53

By The Nation

Thailand aims to become a leading power in Asean by having one of the strongest air forces in the region by the end of this decade.

In 2008, the Royal Thai Air Force spent up to Bt34 billion on the purchase of 12 Swedish-made Gripen fighter jets as part of an effort to replace the ageing F-5A/B jets.

The JAS 39 Gripen is a light, single-engine, multi-role fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company Saab.

The Royal Thai Air Force ordered a complete aircraft and command and control system from the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration in a government-to-government deal, according to GlobalSecurity.org website.

The order includes a first batch of six Gripen C/D with associated equipment and services, one Saab 340 aircraft equipped with Erieye radar (AEW), a Saab 340 for transport and training plus an integrated command and control system with data links, the site said.

The second batch of six Gripen C fighters and another Saab 340 Erieye AEW was ordered in 2010 and the delivery completed in 2013.

The Gripen are now based at the Surat Thani airbase, where they replaced a depleted and rapidly ageing squadron of F5 fighters.

In early September 2013, during the delivery of three Gripen fighter jets, which was the last batch of the total of 12 Gripen jets, one of them was struck by lightning while flying over India. The accident caused minor damage to its electronic system, authorities said.

Later, while presiding over a ceremony to commission the Gripen Integrated Air Defence System at the Wing 7 Air Force base in Surat Thani, then Supreme Commander General Thanasak Patimapragorn, who is now a deputy premier, said that the Thai Air Force’s procurement of the Gripen fighters would make it a leading force in the Asean by 2019.

The Gripen jets will be an integral part in the building up of an Armed Forces network that will boost national defences.

Thailand is now the only country in the region with the Swedish planes in its fleet.

This is exactly right. Not sure why Bangladesh can't do something similar?

 

[The Ronin]

Brother you nailed it.No body should even think about this in prevailing situation that PAK will even sell JF-17 model to BD. Reason behind is that the Indian influence in BD is at the peak right now.So PAK cannot take any risk.RAW can stage few mishaps very easily and then game will be over.There will be full fledged propaganda against technology and capability of JF-17 all over the world. JF-17 is in development phase so PAK cannot afford to take any kind of risk.
I think PAK need 250 JF-17 of all blocks I,II and III.This target will be achieved in 2022.Till
then PAK will accept few small orders from friendly countries only.Then PAK will move to its ultimate project of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).
The AZM (resolve ) of BAF and PAF is quite different in scale and capability. BAF needs limited number of planes for border patrol where as PAK striving hard to be self sufficient in this field with the help of .
Idea of self sufficiency is far more superior then getting expensive planes with string attached with no guarantee of spare parts.It does not matter how your kid look like but you still love him the most. JF-17 is the great achievement of a developing country like Pakistan.
JF-17 and PAF are pride of nation and we know its way forward

There is only one possibility when PAK could take some calculated risk if BD is ready for long term dealing. If BD wants self sufficiency then it should follow PAK route.Order 100-200 planes with overhauling facility and complete TOT.It will be a great breakthrough in terms of technology and geopolitics of entire region.


If BD is ready for joint venture to make 200 state of the art JF-17 then you are
otherwise .

Note: Please don't compare JF-17 with other planes unnecessarily.It is very close to our hearts .It really hurts when somebody criticize JF-17 in jealousy.

Specially BD will be glad to know that JF 17 block 3 is nearing production which will be a 4+ generation fighter.This happened only in space of 15 years that JF 17 is entering its third version with already five JF 17 squadrons operational and JF 17 used in precision strikes .

JF-17 Block 3 should have following features :
1) AESA radar
2) CFT
3) IRST
4) Datalink with Erieye and ZDK03
5) In-Flight Refueling
6) RAM paint
7) Integration of A-Darter missiles with HOBS capability and HMS/HMD (South African Archer / Denel Cobra HMD)
8) 13 hardpoints
9) WS-13 TVC engine with 22000+ lb thrust with afterburner

Oh my god!!! Can you believe this guy??!! We will sell JF-17 to India!! LMAO!! Nope we won't sell it to them!! We will sell them in Dholaikhal!! That will be a very good bargain!! Jealousy??!! Owwww you wish!! JF-17 is the last thing we want!! First you should check the possibility if we buy your mighty thunderrr or not before saying all those crap!! 13 hard point?? Show me the space for it?? Even big fighter like Su-30 have only 12 hard point. As Bilal Khan from QUWA didn't mention anything about increasing hard point in his article either. And the only country that needs border patrol is yours as Pakistan have terrorist threat from one side and India on the other side. You are not our defense expert to say how much fighter we need and where we should need. BD will have 160 various kinds of fighter after 2030. Good luck with your JF-17.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Just a thought. I wonder if Bangladesh can't lease some examples of ex-Swedish Air Force Gripen C/D in the interim much like Hungary and Czech Republic. This will keep immediate costs down. At the same time perhaps buy some time to outright purchase Gripen E/F if the economy improves more.

Who even makes these procurement decisions for the BAF? Is there a lack of imagination at play?

Regardless, politically Bangladesh is a moderate, potentially West leaning nation. I can't see any political hurdles to get the Gripen if Bangladesh has the money.

@A.P. Richelieu @UKBengali @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Right now, I would say no. The Air Force is believed to need all available Gripen Cs.

I think that there may be some Gripen As in storage that can be updated to Gripen C.

The main plan is to introduce 60-70 Gripen E, and keep the Gripen D dual seaters.
The Gripen Cs will not be cannibalized for the Gripen E as was originally planned,
mainly because that would reduce the strength of the Air Force as aircraft would be pulled out
for the rebuild.
The faith of the surplus Gripen Cs are still to be determined.
When Gripen E delivery starts, the current Gripen C might be available for sales or for lease,
but some political parties are in favour of keeping them in the Air Force, to increase the strength.

SAAB is of course offering new build Gripen C/Ds if people are interested.

BD political opponents and civil society will kill the Govt with criticism if they go for such costly option. If anything such happens, should be secret deal. And with westerners its not possible. For civil society its better to not have any weapon at all. Their perception comes through Mukti Guerilla warfare. No need of air force etc BS. First people should be bombarded with brainstorming to make ways for these sophisticated items.



I thought I saw Mig29 in your avatar before. For discussion purpose, is it possible to fit BD's existing Chinese Russian missiles in the Gripen?

There are a few issues.
Mechanically, the missiles must be possible to mount on the hardpoint.
Maybe the hardpoints need to be modified.
Then there is a need to communicate with the missile, so you need a communication bus.
Have no clue what the missiles require. A bridge between the NATO standard bus used by Gripen and the bus used by the missiles may be needed.
Finally, if the Gripen can communicate with the missile on a hardware level, you need to support the communication protocol to use it.
For this, you need information from the missile manufacturer.
The S/W architecture of Gripen E will allow Bangla-Desh to write their own S/W as an App that can be uploaded to the Gripen E, without requalifying the critical flight control system.
IIRC this is the way to introduce support for new weapons.

 

[Flynn Swagmire]

The S/W architecture of Gripen E will allow Bangla-Desh to write their own S/W as an App that can be uploaded to the Gripen E, without requalifying the critical flight control system.
IIRC this is the way to introduce support for new weapons.

Thats why I like Gripen and want to see it in BAF! But...

 

[Bilal9]

I think that there may be some Gripen As in storage that can be updated to Gripen C.

Were the ones supplied to Thailand in 2013 stored Gripen 'A's upgraded to Gripen 'C's? How about the ones leased to Hungary, the Czech Republic and other countries?

I understand in every 12 supplied - you need to have a minimum of two double seaters (Gripen D)?

Also - I understand in 2013 Thailand was given a complete package of 12 Gripens with a SAAB 340 EriEye. Please share any detail you know about this. Specifically - I'm curious how easy/difficult it will be to incorporate and integrate datafeed from EriEye system and the Gripens into a Maritime Tactical Data Link (TDL) scenario which includes inputs from Bangladesh Navy (BN) vessels and their sensors/radars (BN has started specifying TDL and invited RFP from vendors. Per the tender document TDL is strictly going to be Western origin or NATO standard insofar can be gauged)...the Thais claim their Gripens have been integrated into their Naval TDL system successfully already.

At this time - I'd like to ask @Bilal Khan (Quwa) bhai to weigh in on the TDL factor as well please. My Thanks in advance....

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Were the ones supplied to Thailand in 2013 stored Gripen 'A's upgraded to Gripen 'C's? How about the ones leased to Hungary, the Czech Republic and other countries?

I understand in every 12 supplied - you need to have a minimum of two double seaters (Gripen D)?

Also - I understand in 2013 Thailand was given a complete package of 12 Gripens with a SAAB 340 EriEye. Please share any detail you know about this. Specifically - I'm curious how easy/difficult it will be to incorporate and integrate datafeed from EriEye system and the Gripens into a Maritime Tactical Data Link (TDL) scenario which includes inputs from Bangladesh Navy (BN) vessels and their sensors/radars (BN has started specifying TDL and invited RFP from vendors. Per the tender document TDL is strictly going to be Western origin or NATO standard insofar can be gauged)...the Thais claim their Gripens have been integrated into their Naval TDL system successfully already.

At this time - I'd like to ask @Bilal Khan (Quwa) bhai to weigh in on the TDL factor as well please. My Thanks in advance....

The Thai and Hungarian Gripen Cs were rebuilt Gripen A.
As for the Gripen D, there is no requirement to have any.
They are all rebuilt from Gripen As, and you need two Gripen A, to build one Gripen D.
The Czech Gripens came from the batch of aircrafts which were Gripen C to start with.

Do not know anything abouth the BD TDL.

 

[Bilal9]

Do not know anything abouth the BD TDL.

I included the link, here is the tender specification in acrobat format again, your response is entirely optional. If you have friends at Ericsson I'm sure they'd be delighted to know as it came out less than a month ago.

http://www.dgdp.gov.bd/dgdp/AP_TEN/s_doc/1035.pdf

 

[UKBengali]

SAAB is of course offering new build Gripen C/Ds if people are interested.

SAAB has brought out a new radar for Gripen C called the PS-05/A Mark 4:

https://saabgroup.com/sv/Media/news-press/news/2015-04/upgraded-ps-05a-radar-gives-gripen-cd/

"A new Air-to-Air mode has been implemented and demonstrated which takes full advantage of the signal processing capacity and the flexible waveform generation in PS-05/A Mk4. This mode increases acquisition range with 100% at low altitudes compared to previous version of PS- 05/A. This radar mode will also be useful for detection of targets with very low Radar Cross Section. The Meteor missile downlink is optimized to maintain radar performance during long-range data linking scenarios"

100% increase in acquisition range is just amazing!

Are you able to advise if this new radar on Gripen C means that it is comparable to Gripen E now?