Astra Missile - india, Pakistan's reply?

[Skeptic786]

but why pakistan test these missiles just one time. they must test more further to increasethe accuracy of missile.

although if you read my posts above you will get the answer to your question. but let me repeat the missiles are mature systems and donot require tests.....e.g. once we get the technology to produce jf-17 fighters....we are not going to keep on testing them.....as that has already been done....instead we'll concentrate on serial production....its same with Ghauri and Shaheen missile systems.

 

[blain2]

So basically you are agreeing that AQ kahn proliferated with the full knowldge of GOP and now he has become a scape goat.

That is one person's opinion. I do not agree with it. There was plenty that went on at a personal level for which only AQ Khan is responsible.

A very good friend of mine had his father serving as Pakistan's ambassador to NK during the time frame being discussed. The Pakistani acquisition of Missile technology was done solely on the basis of hard cash.

 

[Skeptic786]

That is one person's opinion. I do not agree with it. There was plenty that went on at a personal level for which only AQ Khan is responsible.

A very good friend of mine had his father serving as Pakistan's ambassador to NK during the time frame being discussed. The Pakistani acquisition of Missile technology was done solely on the basis of hard cash.

Thats right we should believe in third hand rumors rather than american investigators version whose army in south korea has to live in the shadow of NK nukes.

 

[blain2]

although if you read my posts above you will get the answer to your question. but let me repeat the missiles are mature systems and donot require tests.....e.g. once we get the technology to produce jf-17 fighters....we are not going to keep on testing them.....as that has already been done....instead we'll concentrate on serial production....its same with Ghauri and Shaheen missile systems.

Who says we are not? Who do you think will be doing weapons and avionics integration and testing? Who do you think will be refining the aircraft's avionics to integrate features like IRST, HMS etc.? Very little credit has been given to Pakistan eventhough Chinese have had extensive assistance from Pakistani Airforce in all phases of the dev. lifecycle. The aeronautical expertise within the PAF greatly exceeds what pakistan has on the civilian side and as such it would be foolish to assume them to be the same. The entire layout of the cockpit, man-machine interface, avionics and radar in general have been supported by PAF personnel along with the Chinese engineers.

To get an idea about this, read up AFMs article called "Pakistan's newest fighter" which essentially talked about how the PAF assistance resulted in the F-7MG becoming an entirely new aircraft. JF-17 is no exception to this case. As the serial assembly comes to Pakistan, PAF would be responsible for test flights and correction of problems encountered in that process. The aircraft will be the first version, the following ones will have considerable PAF testing and evaluation.

 

[blain2]

Thats right we should believe in third hand rumors rather than american investigators version whose army in south korea has to live in the shadow of NK nukes.

Yes let me think about this one....Americans must have got all of the information right (oh yeah they are Americans, how could they not?, were they not the ones who said that mean old Saddam has nukes??) and not only that. they got all the info needed from China to pin the blame on Pakistan..right?

Give me a break! Based on your posts, China the biggest beneficiary of NK had nothing to do with NK 'snuclear development? Based on your unsubstanciated claims, we are to assume that China told Pakistan to go deal with the NK by bartering nuclear tech. for BMs? Nice story...

 

[Skeptic786]

Yes let me think about this one....Americans must have got all of the information right (oh yeah they are Americans, how could they not?, were they not the ones who said that mean old Saddam has nukes??) and not only that. they got all the info needed from China to pin the blame on Pakistan..right?

Give me a break! Based on your posts, China the biggest beneficiary of NK had nothing to do with NK 'snuclear development? Based on your unsubstanciated claims, we are to assume that China told Pakistan to go deal with the NK by bartering nuclear tech. for BMs? Nice story...

It is not americans which opened up the NK angle....but once iran and libya gave way....pakistan voluntarily cooperated with investigations regarding nuke help to NK. Americans have the greatest threat from NK......their investigations are not based on their own expertise...but active help and cooperation of Pakistan...which is the very reason A Q Khan has undergone the extensive questioning....and his pardon was conditioned for that very reason.

I didnot say that china said go deal with nk......rather you have it wrong way round...first read my posts correctly and then make comments. NK did the barter deal with Pakistan....once china realised that pakistan had acquired MRBM technology it opted to do the same with pakistan....hence china too gave MRBM technology for the advanced centrifuge technology.

All this was done in a period when Pakistan was cash strapped.

 

[blain2]

It is not americans which opened up the NK angle....but once iran and libya gave way....pakistan voluntarily cooperated with investigations regarding nuke help to NK. Americans have the greatest threat from NK......their investigations are not based on their own expertise...but active help and cooperation of Pakistan...which is the very reason A Q Khan has undergone the extensive questioning....and his pardon was conditioned for that very reason.

I didnot say that china said go deal with nk......rather you have it wrong way round...first read my posts correctly and then make comments. NK did the barter deal with Pakistan....once china realised that pakistan had acquired MRBM technology it opted to do the same with pakistan....hence china too gave MRBM technology for the advanced centrifuge technology.

All this was done in a period when Pakistan was cash strapped.

The barter deal is only something that you read about in the US press. It is an unproven claim. This is my point to you. NKs have never said that Pakistani assistane to them was the key. Pakistan has always denied that it bartered for this. AQK angle has some implications for the NK program but I maintain that it was not governemt sanctioned. Also China has known all along where Pakistan was with regards to its BM and Nuclear development and has aided Pakistani development efforts since 1990. This is the reason that each year since then, the Americans and Indians alike have complained about Chinese assistance to Pakistan in both of these fields.

Once again, Pakistan paid a good amount to the NKs for the Missile technology. Pakistan has always financed its nuclear program well enough even when the country was economically challenged.

 

[Skeptic786]

The barter deal is only something that you read about in the US press. It is an unproven claim. This is my point to you. NKs have never said that Pakistani assistane to them was the key. Pakistan has always denied that it bartered for this. AQK angle has some implications for the NK program but I maintain that it was not governemt sanctioned. Also China has known all along where Pakistan was with regards to its BM and Nuclear development and has aided Pakistani development efforts since 1990. This is the reason that each year since then, the Americans and Indians alike have complained about Chinese assistance to Pakistan in both of these fields.

Once again, Pakistan paid a good amount to the NKs for the Missile technology. Pakistan has always financed its nuclear program well enough even when the country was economically challenged.

American donot have sources inside NK...what they know is with the help and cooperation of pakistan...who have been griling Dr A Q Khan...even stooping to the level of threatening him with death or imprisonment in Guantanomo Bay. American information therefore is not as unreliable as you imply...precisely because it is not based on american sources....but rather pakistan's investigations of Dr A Q Khan.

Lets take the paying of cash to NK for missile technology. Then as matter of fact NK by implication would have had to pay pakistan cash for the P-2 centrifuges.
Explain then how NK missile technology ended up with A Q Khan...as it was A Q Khan who was delivered the NK missile technology....later unvieled to Pakistanis as Ghauri Missile.

 

[blain2]

American donot have sources inside NK...what they know is with the help and cooperation of pakistan...who have been griling Dr A Q Khan...even stooping to the level of threatening him with death or imprisonment in Guantanomo Bay. American information therefore is not as unreliable as you imply...precisely because it is not based on american sources....but rather pakistan's investigations of Dr A Q Khan.

Lets take the paying of cash to NK for missile technology. Then as matter of fact NK by implication would have had to pay pakistan cash for the P-2 centrifuges.
Explain then how NK missile technology ended up with A Q Khan...as it was A Q Khan who was delivered the NK missile technology....later unvieled to Pakistanis as Ghauri Missile.

umm yeah right we would threaten him with a tour of Gitmo....come now....Pakistani information to the US has been that AQK was involved in proliferation to Iran and Libya and others may have bought from the network that he had built. Pakistan has never admitted aiding the NK nuclear program nor is there any evidence aside from the usual speculation about Pakistan's help to NK.

The nuclear issue is simply as such that after the nuclear weaponization was achieved, KRL was turned into a research institute to work on the delivery capability. This is the reason that initially some of the missiles were produced by KRL (included stuff like Hatf and then the Anza Manpads etc.). So KRL personnel were also clued up with the BM program.

AQK was not the person "entirely" responsible for the delivery or even the negotiations over the BM ToT. There were many others involved from the Pakistani government standpoint, however as the person representing KRL which had been directed to focus on delivery vehicles for the nuclear weapons, he was the obvious choice (at this time, PAEC folks were working overtime to streamline the design of the weapons and miniturization of warhead type issues). When the NK design was found to be lacking, then the indiginous effort was started and instead of KRL, the responsibility was given to the other outfits like PAEC etc.

 

[Skeptic786]

umm yeah right we would threaten him with a tour of Gitmo....come now....Pakistani information to the US has been that AQK was involved in proliferation to Iran and Libya and others may have bought from the network that he had built. Pakistan has never admitted aiding the NK nuclear program nor is there any evidence aside from the usual speculation about Pakistan's help to NK.

The nuclear issue is simply as such that after the nuclear weaponization was achieved, KRL was turned into a research institute to work on the delivery capability. This is the reason that initially some of the missiles were produced by KRL (included stuff like Hatf and then the Anza Manpads etc.). So KRL personnel were also clued up with the BM program.

AQK was not the person "entirely" responsible for the delivery or even the negotiations over the BM ToT. There were many others involved from the Pakistani government standpoint, however as the person representing KRL which had been directed to focus on delivery vehicles for the nuclear weapons, he was the obvious choice (at this time, PAEC folks were working overtime to streamline the design of the weapons and miniturization of warhead type issues). When the NK design was found to be lacking, then the indiginous effort was started and instead of KRL, the responsibility was given to the other outfits like PAEC etc.

There is considerable gap in your knowledge vis-a-vis Pakistan aid to NK uranium enrichment route to the bomb. Your categorical statement that "Pakistan has never admitted aiding the NK nuclear program nor is there any evidence aside from the usual speculation about Pakistan's help to NK" is proof of that gap in knowledge. No less than the person of Musharaf himself confirmed to the world media..including japanese and Americans in Sept 2005
that Pakistan had provided North Korea some two dozen P-2 centrifuges for uranium enrichment ( not to mention NK scientists training at KRL in centrifuge technology which he mentioned in his tour interviews in america and i think also in his book ). Furthermore when Dr A Q Khan was being grilled....parts of 12 page confessional statement was leaked to the press and it too confirmed what had been a speculation to that date that Pakistan...bartered nukes for missiles ( to use american phrase ). Also you seem to be completely in the oblivion as to Colin Powell phone call to musharaf to immediately halt any further help to North Korea in its persuit of nukes...since American satallites picked up pakistan's c130 in 2002 ( 1 year after Dr Qadeer was sacked by musharaf ) delivering and pickiing up stuff....Colin Powell made this call after this evidance brought to him....Musharaf promised to break off all these clandistine links with NK.

As for whether Dr Khan was threatened with death or tour of Gitmo is all matter of shame for Musharaf and record for the rest of us. But i am sure you have read Dina Khan rebuke of musharaf (broadcast by BBC ) and she mentions Dr Qadeer letter ( which musharaf mentioned in his book ) which he left with his wife to be released in the event of him being killed or made to dissappear....ok if he was not threatened why would a national hero...in his own homeland have to resort to this???? common sense is in order.

As far as your jibe at KRL ( Qadeer ) and in the guise of NK design being found lacking...the truth is quite different.....Ghuari system was successfully replicated in Pakistan and worked first time of asking. Its design was not lacking in anyway.....if you can bring me a single official source saying it lacked in any way i will believe you. No indeginous program of any sort was started to resolve "Ghauri design lacking" and least of it being handed to PAEC. What PAEC had done was to get another MRBM system i.e. Shaheen series from China...again bartered for centrifuges ( remember Qadeer from KRL and Ashfaq from PAEC were sacked at the same time and in the same order of Musharaf in 2001 )..Shaheen missile did have teething problem and its first test was failure...which in reality was carried out 2 weeks before the Ghauri missile test...but because it had failed ( missile failed to take off ) it was not published. 2 weeks later Ghauri was tested and it was a successful test which was to considerable chagrin of people at PAEC and NDC. 11 months after Ghuari was tested Shaheen's problem was sorted and it too produced a successful test....but Qadeer and his people at KRL had stolen the march on PAEC/NDC.....hence the hate mongers of Dr Qadeer ( In PAEC/NDC ) had all the more reason to hate him and spreak rumors to defame him.

 

[IBRIS]

Indian Air Force makes available Su-30MKI for flight trails of Astra BVRAAM

07:58 GMT, November 20, 2009 8ak | With the Indian Air Force (IAF) conducting a captive flight trial of the indigenously developed Astra Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air missile (BVRAAM), the Defence Research & Development Organisation’s (DRDO) ambition to indigenously develop missiles for India has got yet another boost. According to Akshay Kumar of the India-based online news service 8ak (8ak - Indian Defence News), project director of the Astra programme S. Gollakota has said that the IAF had made available the Russian manufactured Sukhoi Su-30MKI for the trials. It has also been reported that the missile had been subjected to pressures of 7Gs at supersonic speed during the test.

The fully developed Mark–II active, radar homing Astra will lock-on and shoot down enemy aircraft about 80 kilometres away. Currently under development is a 44 kilometre range Mark-I version. The Astra, with its design altitude of 15km, has the capability to evade radar.

The missile initially will be developed to arm the front line Su-30 fighter aircraft apart from the indigenously developed LCA – Tejas.

Over the years India has developed numerous new missiles to bolster its attack and retaliatory capabilities. Earlier this year, the 700 kilometre range nuclear-capable submarine- launched ballistic missile (SLBM) Sagarika was tested. Other indigenously built missiles to be tested by India this year are the 350 kilometre range Prithvi, 3,500 kilometre range Agni 3 and the jointly Russia-India developed supersonic missile BrahMos.

These missiles are being developed under the aggressive Integrated Guided Missiles Program (IGMP) launched in 1983 by India to develop futuristic missiles technology based on hypersonic rockets to provide a potent weapon to the armed forces in order to enhance national security.

If one studies the progress of IGMP, no one will have any doubts regarding the advancement India has made over the years in development of missiles technology. The program underlines India's capability to attain self-reliance and present a deterrent from a hostile attack. However, Pakistan claims that India is lagging behind them in missile technology.
defence.professionals | defpro.com

 

[Tomahawk]

Thread already exists in the forum.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/1460-astra-missile-india-pakistans-reply.html

Mods please merge.

 

[MrIndianSikh]

Astra is claimed by the DRDO to be better than several of its counter parts like the AMRAAM and R-77

 

[AUz]

Astra is claimed by the DRDO to be better than several of its counter parts like the AMRAAM and R-77

Care to explain please? AMRAAM is whole fcuking series..Which missile are you talking about? AIM-120C??

Well,it would be interesting to see the comparison of Astra and SD-10B . . .

 

[MrIndianSikh]

thats what VK Saraswat claimed in tech focus he was not specific he mentioned R-77 Amraam and "a few other western air to air missiles" i think Astra is slightly inferior to the Aim-120C in terms of ECCM but who knows the only way to find out is in air combat