Around 1,700 Hindus convert to Buddhism in Bihar

[The_Showstopper]

I am not saying you are manufacturing, but clinging on to minority/outdated view. I don't know the reason but care to explain why you are not considering the arguments of the other historians? heck, after all the spat, even rabid anti-hindu historians like romila thapar refute claims of persecution. Now, i do not deny physical violence wasn't used. If you read the buddhist texts ridiculing brahmanic views, it would be amazing feat of tolerance exibited by hindus if there wasn't even "some" physical violence. But do we know how much? was it matching "persecution" level like what inquisition unleashed by christians? you say yes, but there isn't sufficient evidence to back it up. Many eminent historians too say the same. And yes, the source you posted clearly says King Shashanka installed a Shiva idol in place of the tree. double check your own source.

They are not minority/outdated view as you claim them to be and I can post many more of such claims by various historians/authors. I clearly repeated that Historians do state that Buddhist versions do hold truth, so you just can't rubbish off the versions of Buddhist monks(though they may exaggerated) and the point still remains that, they were persecuted. Were we discussing the level of persecution? No, Were we comparing it with Crusades or Inquisition? No...

What you were doing until now was rubbishing off the claims that their was no physical violence while claiming exaggerated claims of Buddhists can't be believed altogether. Yes my source does claim so(Thanks for pointing it out) as a Shiva Linga can still be found and the following link proves it....

"Mahabodhi Temple Complex
There is a huge statue of Lord Buudha inside the temple complex. In the centre of the temple complex lies a Shiva Linga."

Source: Mahabodhi Temple India,Mahabodhi Temple Tour,Mahabodhi Temple
Travel,Mahabodhi Temple in Bodhgaya Bihar

 

[Sneaker]

They are not minority/outdated view as you claim them to be and I can post many more of such claims by various historians/authors. I clearly repeated that Historians do state that Buddhist versions do hold truth, so you just can't rubbish off the versions of Buddhist monks(though they may exaggerated) and the point still remains that, they were persecuted. Were we discussing the level of persecution? No, Were we comparing it with Crusades or Inquisition? No...

What you were doing until now was rubbishing off the claims that their was no physical violence while claiming exaggerated claims of Buddhists can't be believed altogether. Yes my source does claim so(Thanks for pointing it out) as a Shiva Linga can still be found and the following link proves it....

"Mahabodhi Temple Complex
There is a huge statue of Lord Buudha inside the temple complex. In the centre of the temple complex lies a Shiva Linga."

Source: Mahabodhi Temple India,Mahabodhi Temple Tour,Mahabodhi Temple
Travel,Mahabodhi Temple in Bodhgaya Bihar

We are indeed comparing them to crusades and inquisition, otherwise how you will establish what amounts to persecution? In fact, Asoka banned all animal sacrifices, including in hindu rituals. Will you say Buddhists persecuted hindus? We have to follow a standard for persecution and what better standards exists other than Christian crusade and inquisition? About shiva idol, if you read your source, it says king shashanka cut the bodhi tree and replaced it with shiva idol. So, that idol had to be replaced before planting new saplng of bodhi tree, right?? The idol you mentioned is unrelated and was installed somewhere after (no credible source/history) king shashank's son or other successors built the present temple (well, huen-tsang says temple and lotus pond were built by brahmins, along with buddha statue itself)!! The temple was a buddist pilgrimage center till 13th century when it was conquered by delhi sultanate. So, what persecution?? And again, after it's rediscovery by hindu priest, they did not know it was bodh gaya or a buddhist site and did a lot of construction/alteration. Only during 1820s (good 200 years after rediscovery) that it was found out that this was buddist abode. So again, you can disregard all the work done by historians and claim with certainty that buddists were persecuted, but I see no evidence of it, like in case of christian inquisition.

 

[The_Showstopper]

We are indeed comparing them to crusades and inquisition, otherwise how you will establish what amounts to persecution? In fact, Asoka banned all animal sacrifices, including in hindu rituals. Will you say Buddhists persecuted hindus? We have to follow a standard for persecution and what better standards exists other than Christian crusade and inquisition? About shiva idol, if you read your source, it says king shashanka cut the bodhi tree and replaced it with shiva idol. So, that idol had to be replaced before planting new saplng of bodhi tree, right?? The idol you mentioned is unrelated and was installed somewhere after (no credible source/history) king shashank's son or other successors built the present temple (well, huen-tsang says temple and lotus pond were built by brahmins, along with buddha statue itself)!! The temple was a buddist pilgrimage center till 13th century when it was conquered by delhi sultanate. So, what persecution?? And again, after it's rediscovery by hindu priest, they did not know it was bodh gaya or a buddhist site and did a lot of construction/alteration. Only during 1820s (good 200 years after rediscovery) that it was found out that this was buddist abode. So again, you can disregard all the work done by historians and claim with certainty that buddists were persecuted, but I see no evidence of it, like in case of christian inquisition.

So Persecution can only be persecution if they are of a scale of Inquisition or Crusades? Do we know the exact number of people killed when Buddhism was being haunted by Hindu Kings? No we are not sure about it, they may be many hundreds or they could have been thousands. But we are sure that killings did take place, so is that not persecution? You claim that Ashoka banned hindu rituals and I suppose you have some source to prove that, but why should I take your source seriously since they come at a period of time which can be termed many many centuries ago(Time period before Hindu revival) and could have been very well exaggerated or had never happened at all(Since you claim that the claims of Buddhist records are not true and these records most probably would be comparatively much younger than the one's which claim that Ashoka banned hindu rituals). How can you be so sure that the Shiva Idol is not the same as the one placed by King Shashanka(Since you have no credible source to prove otherwise)? You claim that Brahmins built the temple along with Buddha Statue itself(Citing Hiuen Tsang), so there is quite a possibility that Brahmins after claiming that Buddha was re-incarnation of Vishnu built this temple along with the Shiva lingam placed at its centre. You conveniently quote Hiuen Tsang for the temple building but you want to ignore the same person's statements that claim that Buddhist monastries were destroyed and monks killed by Hindu Kings. So yes there was persecution(Though the exact scale can't be unequivocally agreed upon). Since this claiming and counter-claiming has been on for good number of pages on this thread, Can you come up with the names and sources of those eminent historians and their theory of no persecution of Buddhism?

 

[Soulspeek]

I have cleared this many times. I don't hate Hinduism. It is the soul of India. I just hate some rabid extremists.

I would be very happy to see a caste free, hatred free India where Nationalism comes first and religion comes second. The nation where the lines between Hindus, Muslims Christians etc are fuzzy and almost invisible.

The day our mother India once attains its lost glory. Darn! I am getting too emotional.

Indeed but what i found shocking was that Christianity & Islam instead trying to cure this social evil are further encouraging them as Caste system is still being practiced in Christianity & Islam.WTF @Shoulspeek you were supposed to fight this

 

[Echo_419]

I have cleared this many times. I don't hate Hinduism. It is the soul of India. I just hate some rabid extremists.

I would be very happy to see a caste free, hatred free India where Nationalism comes first and religion comes second. The nation where the lines between Hindus, Muslims Christians etc are fuzzy and almost invisible.

The day our mother India once attains its lost glory. Darn! I am getting too emotional.

I understand your concerns & would have had the same if I was in your position but let me assure you that the present govt won the mandate it won solely on the basis of promises of economic development & restore our great nation's rightful status as a world power

 

[Sneaker]

So Persecution can only be persecution if they are of a scale of Inquisition or Crusades? Do we know the exact number of people killed when Buddhism was being haunted by Hindu Kings? No we are not sure about it, they may be many hundreds or they could have been thousands. But we are sure that killings did take place, so is that not persecution? You claim that Ashoka banned hindu rituals and I suppose you have some source to prove that, but why should I take your source seriously since they come at a period of time which can be termed many many centuries ago(Time period before Hindu revival) and could have been very well exaggerated or had never happened at all(Since you claim that the claims of Buddhist records are not true and these records most probably would be comparatively much younger than the one's which claim that Ashoka banned hindu rituals). How can you be so sure that the Shiva Idol is not the same as the one placed by King Shashanka(Since you have no credible source to prove otherwise)? You claim that Brahmins built the temple along with Buddha Statue itself(Citing Hiuen Tsang), so there is quite a possibility that Brahmins after claiming that Buddha was re-incarnation of Vishnu built this temple along with the Shiva lingam placed at its centre. You conveniently quote Hiuen Tsang for the temple building but you want to ignore the same person's statements that claim that Buddhist monastries were destroyed and monks killed by Hindu Kings. So yes there was persecution(Though the exact scale can't be unequivocally agreed upon). Since this claiming and counter-claiming has been on for good number of pages on this thread, Can you come up with the names and sources of those eminent historians and their theory of no persecution of Buddhism?

That is how history works. Asoka himself, throuh edicts, repeatedly proclaimed that. There were different sources, buddists and non-buddists, mentioning the same. But for buddist persecution account, we only have one side of the story. Many times the source was patronized by buddist king who was in war with brahmin kings. We also know falsehood propogated by such a source in nalanda incident. Now, you admit exxageration, but how much exxageration? On what basis you can say it happened for sure? How is it falsifiable? Unless it is falsifiable, it doesn't count as history. For eminent historians who do not beleive persecution theory, romila thapar, earlst come to mind. Just read the thread you posted (read your sources!!)

 

[The_Showstopper]

That is how history works. Asoka himself, throuh edicts, repeatedly proclaimed that. There were different sources, buddists and non-buddists, mentioning the same. But for buddist persecution account, we only have one side of the story. Many times the source was patronized by buddist king who was in war with brahmin kings. We also know falsehood propogated by such a source in nalanda incident. Now, you admit exxageration, but how much exxageration? On what basis you can say it happened for sure? How is it falsifiable? Unless it is falsifiable, it doesn't count as history. For eminent historians who do not beleive persecution theory, romila thapar, earlst come to mind. Just read the thread you posted (read your sources!!)

So how come you compare the edicts of restrictions with the one's where there was a directed persecution? The same can be said about the persecution claims of Buddhists. They are supported by Buddhist and Non-Buddhist sources. My very first source clearly stated that though exaggerated there is truth in such claims of persecution. Dude read my posts with patience and attention. Since you want raise doubts over the whole event based on "exaggeration", do I have your permission to completely deny that there was ever battle fought between Ghori and Prithviraj Chauhan since folklore claims that Prithviraj actually pardoned Ghori 16 times over 16 encounters whereas actual history has something else to say. My basis is quite clear, They are historical recordings and analysis of both Buddhist and Non-Buddhist sources. I think you are unaware of the fact that Nalanda was attacked and destroyed more than one time and Hiuen Tsang does mention that it was in ruins under the rule of King Shashanka. An excerpt from his records...

" In Bihar (or old Magadha), the site of a number of important Buddhist landmarks, he also found a striking decline and relatively few followers, with Hinduism and Jainism predominating. The great Buddhist university at Nalanda was in ruins. Bengal during his travel was ruled by Shashanka, a staunch Hindu ruler. He found relatively few Buddhists in Bengal, Kamarupa, or modern Assam. He described Shashanka as the “vile Gauda serpent” who had destroyed the Buddhist stupas of Bengal "

Source: Decline Of Buddhism In Ancient And Medieval India - Analysis - Eurasia Review

"The fall of Nalanda University
According to the records Nalanda University was destroyed three times by invaders, but rebuilt only twice. The first destruction was caused by the Huns under Mihirakula during the reign of Skandagupta (455–467 AD). But Skanda’s successors restored the library and improved it with an even bigger building.

The second destruction came in the early 7th century by the Gaudas. This time, the Buddhist king Harshavardhana (606–648 AD) restored the university.

The third and most destructive attack came when the ancient Nalanda University was destroyed by the Muslim army led by the Turkish leader Bakhtiyar Khilji in 1193."

Source: The Ancient Indian University Which Is Taking Students Again After 800 Years! - The Better India

So yes Buddhists text with regards to Nalanda destruction were not wrong. And let me remind you that many of his recordings have been analysed and accepted by historians. It is him who claimed that Bodhi tree was attacked and was replaced with Shiva Linga. You asked me if Shiva Lingam actually exists in the temple or not and I showed you that it does exist, Since you are unable to source where this Shiva Linga came into existence in Mahabodhi temple, I will reconstruct that for you. In your previous post, you said Brahmins built/renovated the temple with Buddha statue and I claimed that a Shiva Lingam has been placed in the centre of the temple(Source: BodhGaya Temple | Mahabodhi Gaya | Lord Budha Birth Place- Pilgrimage India This happened at the very same time when Buddha was inducted as an avatar of Vishnu. So as I stated earlier, there is a chronology of events that happened from the destruction of Bodhi tree until the re-building of Bodhi temple.

How convenient of you, you want to cite the claims of Romila Thapar(as "eminent" historian who is otherwise lambasted as not worthy and who's findings are rubbished by your lot) to vindicate your point.

 

[Dem!god]

i know, there is some serious discrimination with dalits in bihar,
if they feel safe its good they converted, but these high class morons, need to learn equality ... everyone is born, .. equal and cast and creed are things of past...

 

[Sneaker]

So how come you compare the edicts of restrictions with the one's where there was a directed persecution? The same can be said about the persecution claims of Buddhists. They are supported by Buddhist and Non-Buddhist sources. My very first source clearly stated that though exaggerated there is truth in such claims of persecution. Dude read my posts with patience and attention. Since you want raise doubts over the whole event based on "exaggeration", do I have your permission to completely deny that there was ever battle fought between Ghori and Prithviraj Chauhan since folklore claims that Prithviraj actually pardoned Ghori 16 times over 16 encounters whereas actual history has something else to say. My basis is quite clear, They are historical recordings and analysis of both Buddhist and Non-Buddhist sources. I think you are unaware of the fact that Nalanda was attacked and destroyed more than one time and Hiuen Tsang does mention that it was in ruins under the rule of King Shashanka. An excerpt from his records...

" In Bihar (or old Magadha), the site of a number of important Buddhist landmarks, he also found a striking decline and relatively few followers, with Hinduism and Jainism predominating. The great Buddhist university at Nalanda was in ruins. Bengal during his travel was ruled by Shashanka, a staunch Hindu ruler. He found relatively few Buddhists in Bengal, Kamarupa, or modern Assam. He described Shashanka as the “vile Gauda serpent” who had destroyed the Buddhist stupas of Bengal "

Source: Decline Of Buddhism In Ancient And Medieval India - Analysis - Eurasia Review

So yes Buddhists text with regards to Nalanda destruction were not wrong. And let me remind you that many of his recordings have been analysed and accepted by historians. It is him who claimed that Bodhi tree was attacked and was replaced with Shiva Linga. You asked me if Shiva Lingam actually exists in the temple or not and I showed you that it does exist, Since you are unable to source where this Shiva Linga came into existence in Mahabodhi temple, I will reconstruct that for you. In your previous post, you said Brahmins built/renovated the temple with Buddha statue and I claimed that a Shiva Lingam has been placed in the centre of the temple(Source: BodhGaya Temple | Mahabodhi Gaya | Lord Budha Birth Place- Pilgrimage India This happened at the very same time when Buddha was inducted as an avatar of Vishnu. So as I stated earlier, there is a chronology of events that happened from the destruction of Bodhi tree until the re-building of Bodhi temple.

How convenient of you, you want to cite the claims of Romila Thapar(as eminent historian who is otherwise lambasted as not worthy and who's findings are rubbished by your lot) to vindicate your point.

There is no non-buddist source for persecution. All the source you have mentioned refer to same buddhist sources. Just because some non-buddhist writes it in 20th century doesn't make it a "source". You can deny folklore if there is no other evidence. In case of ghori, we have both sides and multiple archaeological evidence. That is the point. Folklore can have "some" truth or "not at all". You an start investigating, but until you get some other evidence, you don't confirm that folklore is true. This is why scholars till aren't sure whether jesus existed at all as a person. Folklore have been proven untrue or been proved to be lifted/plagiarized from earlier pagan traditions. There has been no independent sources and primary sources are way too unreliable. Only conjuncture about his existence is how painfully the existing sources try to put him in a particular place, inventing outright lies and ignoring geography. In case of Nalanda, Taranath and other buddhist sources claim that hindu beggars burned the whole thing down. But we have much clear evidence (archaeological and sources chronicaling his conquest) that it was done by Bhaktiyar Khilji. Your claim that Hindus did this is ridiculously laughable. That is why scholars take what huen-tsang has said with skepticism (Huen-tsang was patronized by buddhist king Harshavardhana who was at war with King Shashanka. There is no archaelogical evidence that Naland was built multiple times to indicate multiple destruction). It happens when you rely on biased sources, like eurasia link you quoted. I did not ask where is shva idol in the "complex", but the one king shashanka installed after cutting down the bodhi tree (temple wasn't there at that time, but a small structure around bodhi tree which is still there. Temple was constructed later probably by king shashank's successor dynasty). If you have not realized, whole complex is mixed with hindu architecture and temples. Apparently, by 6th CE, difference between "hinduism" and buddhism had faded in that part atleast. Bottom line, how much ever you desired that hindus had persecuted buddhists, not showing up in reality.

PS: I need to call your quote of Huen-tsang about nalanda outright lie, either by you or by source you are relying upon. Nalanda was in procession of harsha, enemy of king shashanka. Morover, huen-tsang studied there for several years. This is what he said about it - "Moreover, the whole establishment is surrounded by a brick wall, which encloses the entire convent from without. One gate opens into the great college, from which are separated eight other halls standing in the middle (of the Sangharama). The richly adorned towers, and the fairy-like turrets, like pointed hill-tops are congregated together. The observatories seem to be lost in the vapours (of the morning), and the upper rooms tower above the clouds."

 

[The_Showstopper]

There is no non-buddist source for persecution. All the source you have mentioned refer to same buddhist sources. Just because some non-buddhist writes it in 20th century doesn't make it a "source". You can deny folklore if there is no other evidence. In case of ghori, we have both sides and multiple archaeological evidence. That is the point. Folklore can have "some" truth or "not at all". You an start investigating, but until you get some other evidence, you don't confirm that folklore is true. This is why scholars till aren't sure whether jesus existed at all as a person. Folklore have been proven untrue or been proved to be lifted/plagiarized from earlier pagan traditions. There has been no independent sources and primary sources are way too unreliable. Only conjuncture about his existence is how painfully the existing sources try to put him in a particular place, inventing outright lies and ignoring geography. In case of Nalanda, Taranath and other buddhist sources claim that hindu beggars burned the whole thing down. But we have much clear evidence (archaeological and sources chronicaling his conquest) that it was done by Bhaktiyar Khilji. Your claim that Hindus did this is ridiculously laughable. That is why scholars take what huen-tsang has said with skepticism (Huen-tsang was patronized by buddhist king Harshavardhana who was at war with King Shashanka. There is no archaelogical evidence that Naland was built multiple times to indicate multiple destruction). It happens when you rely on biased sources, like eurasia link you quoted. I did not ask where is shva idol in the "complex", but the one king shashanka installed after cutting down the bodhi tree (temple wasn't there at that time, but a small structure around bodhi tree which is still there. Temple was constructed later probably by king shashank's successor dynasty). If you have not realized, whole complex is mixed with hindu architecture and temples. Apparently, by 6th CE, difference between "hinduism" and buddhism had faded in that part atleast. Bottom line, how much ever you desired that hindus had persecuted buddhists, not showing up in reality.

These Non-Buddhists have verified the Buddhist claims after carefully going through available evidences. You want to rely on archaeological evidence for the Chauhan-Ghori event but completely deny other events focusing on Persecution of Buddhists which are also validated based on archaeological findings. I gave you the relating records of destruction of Bodhi tree and the introduction of Shiva Lingam at a Buddhist site of worship, yet you chose to ignore them just to suit your beliefs and no where were you able to explain the correct order other than relying on the same repeated lines of "Buddhist sources can't be believed". Even after repeated posts, you still seem to go by your own self, So I would leave you with your beliefs as I can see this discussion to be futile, so rest easy on your beliefs.

By the way please go through these books, they might cast away your misgivings....

The Revival of Buddhist Pilgrimage at Bodh Gaya (1811-1949): Anagarika ...
By Alan Trevithick

Class and Religion in Ancient India
By Jayantanuja Bandyopadhyaya

Modernisation of Buddhism: Contribution of Ambedkar and Dalai Lama XIV
By Lella Karunyakara

Al-Hind the Making of the Indo-Islamic World: The Slave Kings
By André Wink

People Trees: Worship of Trees in Northern India
By David L. Haberman

 

[Sneaker]

These Non-Buddhists have verified the Buddhist claims after carefully going through available evidences. You want to rely on archaeological evidence for the Chauhan-Ghori event but completely deny other events focusing on Persecution of Buddhists which are also validated based on archaeological findings. I gave you the relating records of destruction of Bodhi tree and the introduction of Shiva Lingam at a Buddhist site of worship, yet you chose to ignore them just to suit your beliefs and no where were you able to explain the correct order other than relying on the same repeated lines of "Buddhist sources can't be believed". Even after repeated posts, you still seem to go by your own self, So I would leave you with your beliefs as I can see this discussion to be futile, so rest easy on your beliefs.

By the way please go through these books, they might cast away your misgivings....

The Revival of Buddhist Pilgrimage at Bodh Gaya (1811-1949): Anagarika ...
By Alan Trevithick

Class and Religion in Ancient India
By Jayantanuja Bandyopadhyaya

Modernisation of Buddhism: Contribution of Ambedkar and Dalai Lama XIV
By Lella Karunyakara

Al-Hind the Making of the Indo-Islamic World: The Slave Kings
By André Wink

People Trees: Worship of Trees in Northern India
By David L. Haberman

First, what about your Huen-Tsong quote about Nalanda? Second mention "evidence" available about the destruction/persecution apart from buddist text that these people "carefully" considered. I have already demonstrated how buddist text can be deceiving. As I have seen, all these people solely rely on conjunctures and buddist texts to assert there was persecution. Do they have any edict passed by King shashanka or some one banning buddist activities like king asoka did for hindus? Any official/archaeological dates of shiva idol to support it was installed during reign of king shashanka? forget that, any background about that available to say when it was installed? (UN heritage and indian archaelogical sevice say temple was built around 6-7 century CE, which makes it difficult for king shashanka to wake up from being dead to install the shivalinga, he died in 625 CE). Like I said, I got no problem in admitting persecution did take place (we already know with high certainty that Buddhist persecuted hindus in early stages, no wonder hindus retaliated in kind when their time came). But there isn't enough evidence to support persecution. That if you consider withdrawal of royal patronage and theological assault on principles of buddhism (which were mostly open debates) carried out by likes of shankaracharya as not persecution. That is why i asked what is your definition of persecution?