An India that can’t say no to Pakistan!

[KRAIT]

@F.O.X
I agree that relations should improve. Indian companies can become a important part of Pakistan's economy which can dial down the tension and development of trust deficit which ultimately leads to skirmishes and sometimes war. It also give India strategic benefit in terms of economy as these Indian companies can get market in India but Pakistan's economy may suffer much more, in case of war.

Another point that should be kept in mind, for peace we need economic inter-dependency and stronger borders. Collaborations between influential business houses can avoid any confrontation. Terrorism has now become headache of Pakistan too and India has been victim of terrorism for decades. Another common ground. Not to forget both countries are going through internal unrest.

But look this from other angle. It is a perfect time for India to get prepare ground of creating Pakistan opposing West. Gradually India can slow down Pakistan's economy like the way it interfered in loans from EB and ADB which Pakistan asked for its major projects. Economy is the new Nuke of this century. India is also getting other Islamic nations especially KSA's attention which wants to invest billions in India, same KSA that funded anti-India terrorist outfits. May be they can put check on such funding. Its a opportunity being handed over to India which is too good to let it go.

So there are Pros and Cons, its up to our Govt. what they decide will be more beneficial. At one place we can have relatively silent borders giving us chance to tackle our internal problems and at other end we can affect Pakistan to an extent that we can get more lead and increase the gap.

@Others
Give some rational than emotional points.

 

[Awesome]

The main driving force behind this is the banking sector.

India is already trading with Pakistan in a lot of money. The problem right now Pakistani and Indian businesses have is to have to trust the individual trader on the other side.

Suppose as a trader I order xyz product from India on credit, I get the shipment and then default on my payment. The Indian vendor is left going through Pakistani courts and will struggle to recover his money.

Or if the Indian buyer purchases some goods and pays advance cash but doesn't receive the goods?

Same risks for Pakistani side too.

Banks can help facilitate trade finance between the two and regulate this trade.

Now each party will issue a bank guarantee, letter of guarantee or letter of credit and do the trade with ease that payment would be made or goods will be delivered.

So India has several self-serving needs to allow all this expansion of relations. Not to mention historically Pakistan just wanted Kashmir issue resolved and India was the one pushing that we first establish trade relations. So India is getting what it wanted for decades, Pakistan is not.

 

[notsuperstitious]

When a drunk super angry driver is driving the car next to you you drive carefully and give him the right of way. Its common sense.

 

[Contrarian]

So India has several self-serving needs to allow all this expansion of relations. Not to mention historically Pakistan just wanted Kashmir issue resolved and India was the one pushing that we first establish trade relations. So India is getting what it wanted for decades, Pakistan is not.

Very true. On the other hand though, you realize that the reason Pakistan's military is allowing all this is because at the moment Pakistan is isolated diplomatically, militarily and economically its in doldrums.

Pakistan needs a friendly India towards the East. Its no longer a luxury.

The whole suspect is when the Western(american) pressure eases up, will Pakistan continue on this path.

 

[ChennaiDude]

An India that can’t say no to Pakistan!


Did India act in haste in endorsing a relaxed visa policy with Pakistan? Should not it have audited the real outcome of the earlier Confidence Building Measures (CBMs) in context of continued support to anti-India activities latest being the cyber war launched from across the border?

Or, did India just do the right thing by putting history behind it, to seek a cordial future with its neighbour? The verdict on the vexed debate persists even as hope floats that somehow or the other the warring nations find love together.

India and Pakistan have signed a liberalised visa regime during external affairs minister SM Krishna’s recent visit to Pakistan. Not surprisingly, the mood on both sides of the border is upbeat. More so, because the two sides were able to clinch a deal without succumbing to the weight of complex irritants such as terrorism, Jammu and Kashmir, Siachen and Sir Creek and water issues.

The optimism is palpable. Dr Rajiv Kumar, Secretary General, industry body FICCI, asserts, “The easing of the visa regime is unlike any other CBM as it facilitates the visit of and interaction amongst the businessmen of the two countries. The only way to prevent the relations between the two countries from being held hostage to the past fundamentalist actions is to improve the economic ties. The liberalisation of the visa regime and the reduction in the size of the negative list for cross-border trade will contribute directly to that.” He is sure not to mention the flip flop on MFN status by Pakistan, perhaps, not to spoil the mood.

While better and peaceful ties with Islamabad are desirable, it doesn’t take more than common sense to spot the dichotomy in the engagement strategy with Pakistan. On one hand India is keen to show Pakistan to unfaithful on the 9/11 probe as also its failure to reign in terror modules, and on the other we shake hands in public view and seek visa opening up as a landmark step to engage Pakistan to hopefully help it seem merit in India’s terror concerns.

But a contrarian argument reads the riot act. With Pakistan reeling under the weight of its own mess in Afghanistan, domestic instability, worsening economic situation and diplomatic isolation especially American indifference and restrictions on aid; shouldn’t New Delhi have posed hard to bargain? Instead, we might have conceded yet another vista for anti-India elements in Pakistan to enter the country or at least make a recce of targets.

Deep K Datta-Ray, a Singapore-based independent researcher on diplomacy sounds optimistic and avers that Krishna and the Prime Minister, the main architect behind recent peace manoeuvres be commended for the recent trip.

With Indian establishment sort of de-linking terrorism from talks, Pakistan’s strategy has even started paying initial dividends. In fact, the word “terror” was not mentioned during the joint briefing in Islamabad. In fact, Pakistan with a glamorous and determined Hina Rabbani Khar seemed to have gained an upper hand when she said that “both sides should not be held hostage to history.”

She had earlier made it clear that Pakistan is keen to host Prime Minister Manmohan Singh without any conditions. What adds insult to injury is that our foreign affairs establishment is terming Krishna’s visit a success when the only time the word "terror" in Mumbai terror attacks' context found mention was in the joint statement.

The failure to see any genuine assurance from Pakistan’s side to bring 26/11 perpetrators to book will only sustain the common criticism levelled against India-Pakistan dialogues as moving in circles and hardly producing any tangible result. Unless there is definite progress on the ground, what’s the purpose of holding these talks?

Datta-Ray too wants to see Pakistan deliver more. He says, “For these initiatives to actually work on the ground, Pakistan has to be able to demonstrate that it too can match India.” But when it comes to Pakistan, many believe that even India has limited options.

Happymon Jacob, assistant professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University’s School of International Studies agrees that past experiences with Pakistan weren’t good and scepticism with any dialogue process is bound to creep. Yet he maintains that “sometimes process is itself the product” and “it is better to be talking to each other peacefully and graciously, even when there is not tangible outcome in sight, than working to sabotage each other.”

True, a divided Pakistan doesn’t augur well for India and talking is better than not talking at all with a nuclear-armed neighbour which many see on the verge of becoming a failed state. Ignoring Pakistan’s civilian regime for long will further alienate them from the masses which are falling prey to Islamist radicals increasingly becoming the mainstream. Increasing trade and commerce will help to create peace dividend and reduce focus on political disputes.

“The choice for Indian diplomacy is dual. We can discuss with Pakistan issues that are highly charged and extremely difficult to unravel. But this will take us nowhere because we will continue to pander to history and unfortunately there is very little in that history to make for reconciliation or to solve the problems that plague us today,” explains Datta-Ray.


An India that can

I for one personally think we should all move past this damn past history BS and try to find a solution to this mis-trust.

India and Pakistan can accomplish many great thing together as business friends..nothing more that that. As far as common people go (In both India and pakistan)...they have nothing against each other..its only the politics that hate each other..

India needs a friendly and prosperous Pakistan as a nieghbour and Pakistan needs an India that stands by her side....the common goal is to bring upliftment of her people on both sides....my 2 cents.

 

[Awesome]

Very true. On the other hand though, you realize that the reason Pakistan's military is allowing all this is because at the moment Pakistan is isolated diplomatically, militarily and economically its in doldrums.

Pakistan needs a friendly India towards the East. Its no longer a luxury.

The whole suspect is when the Western(american) pressure eases up, will Pakistan continue on this path.

No one in Pakistan thinks that way. We would rather be friends with China, Russia, ME... Democratic governments want to appear to be doing something, and hence Indian and Pakistani government relented upon pressure to their own traders who obviously wanted to trade with each other.

 

[Contrarian]

No one in Pakistan thinks that way. We would rather be friends with China, Russia, ME... Democratic governments want to appear to be doing something, and hence Indian and Pakistani government relented upon pressure to their own traders who obviously wanted to trade with each other.

I didnt say friends. I said friendly. Pakistan cannot at the moment afford to have a hostile India. An example of the case would be that India alone was successful in blocking the textile PTA that EU was giving Pakistan to compensate for floods. Till Pakistan spoke with India and convinced it to not block the agreement. Once we stopped, we made BD stop as well. This was an example in the economic sphere. Less said about the military sphere the better.

The direct and indirect trade put together between India and Pakistan is peanuts in the overall Indian economy. I doubt it would be enough to cause such a push by the GoI.

Pakistani Army realizes all of this. There is an interview of a high ranking Army official alluding to the fact that he realizes that Pakistani economy is not in a good shape and inorder to 'enlarge' the pie, trade with India is needed. There is a reason why PA is agree'ing to all this. Its isolated. Forgive me, i have not archived the interview, so cannot post it.

 

[Icewolf]

I didnt say friends. I said friendly. Pakistan cannot at the moment afford to have a hostile India. An example of the case would be that India alone was successful in blocking the textile PTA that EU was giving Pakistan to compensate for floods. Till Pakistan spoke with India and convinced it to not block the agreement. Once we stopped, we made BD stop as well. This was an example in the economic sphere. Less said about the military sphere the better.

The direct and indirect trade put together between India and Pakistan is peanuts in the overall Indian economy. I doubt it would be enough to cause such a push by the GoI.

Pakistani Army realizes all of this. There is an interview of a high ranking Army official alluding to the fact that he realizes that Pakistani economy is not in a good shape and inorder to 'enlarge' the pie, trade with India is needed. There is a reason why PA is agree'ing to all this. Its isolated. Forgive me, i have not archived the interview, so cannot post it.

No. India cannot afford to have a hostile Pakistan. Pakistan is the barrier between trade between South Asia, China, Middle East.. Go the smart way, as China did, they are our friends, so they get free acess to Gwadar port, and cheap oil, which in turn boosts their economy.

 

[Contrarian]

No. India cannot afford to have a hostile Pakistan. Pakistan is the barrier between trade between South Asia, China, Middle East.. Go the smart way, as China did, they are our friends, so they get free acess to Gwadar port, and cheap oil, which in turn boosts their economy.

If you were to discuss facts, id be happy to. Generally your posts are simply rants with no bearing to reality. India can afford to have a hostile Pakistan. With a hostile Pakistan, India has been growing at over 8% and expanded while Pakistan has not. What does that tell you? India's trade with China is over $60 billion. Our trade with Middle East is humungous.. Unlike China, we have access to all of Indian Ocean quite readily. We trade with both China and Middle East directly as all these countries have sea access.

The only place where we dont have access directly and the only place where Pakistan can help us is the CAR regions. And the only barrier or reason for Pakistan's importance is till US imposes sanctions on Iran. India has invested in Chabahar. That investment will bear fruit when US lifts sanctions on Iran. Other than that, no we are not dependent on Pakistan for anything.

 

[Icewolf]

If you were to discuss facts, id be happy to. Generally your posts are simply rants with no bearing to reality. India can afford to have a hostile Pakistan. With a hostile Pakistan, India has been growing at over 8% and expanded while Pakistan has not. What does that tell you? India's trade with China is over $60 billion. Our trade with Middle East is humungous.. Unlike China, we have access to all of Indian Ocean quite readily. We trade with both China and Middle East directly as all these countries have sea access.

The only place where we dont have access directly and the only place where Pakistan can help us is the CAR regions. And the only barrier or reason for Pakistan's importance is till US imposes sanctions on Iran. India has invested in Chabahar. That investment will bear fruit when US lifts sanctions on Iran. Other than that, no we are not dependent on Pakistan for anything.

What if Pakistan wants to block oil ships coming through its territorial waters. Im sure if maybe doesnt affect India, but it defintently affects China, which is your biggest trading partner. Guess what sonny, if China doesnt get to trade with the Middle East, then her economy will faint, and no money for India. So in a way, you do depend on Pakistan. Sort of like the butterfly effect. Be careful, we control the world.

See how important Pakistan is?

 

[Icewolf]

And anyways, Chabahar is a low wielding port, cannot hold more than 20 ships probably. While Gwadar is the largest undersea port which is desirable for the mega tankers that carry oil

 

[Rusty]

When a drunk super angry driver is driving the car next to you you drive carefully and give him the right of way. Its common sense.

Indian's would know all about drunk driving

 

[OrionHunter]

Did India act in haste in endorsing a relaxed visa policy with Pakistan?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ndia-can-t-say-no-pakistan.html#ixzz26naZmZHd

Nope! It's all part of an Indian conspiracy..........Hafiz Sayeed and Co ask for visas - issued by Indian High Commission - they come to India - RAW nabs them! End of story.

Elementary, Dr Watson!

 

[indushek]

Could it? China certainly doesn't follow that mantra and it seems to be doing pretty well on the strategic and policy front.

China doesn't certainly have the head ache of cross border "love". Also they don't suffer the 'inferiority complex' our govt seems to be suffering wrt China.

 

[indushek]

Its the cross border puppy love that exists in certain sections of the Indian society.

Everything has its use, unfortunately we have to agree that we haven't been able to extract much other than making the world recognize the 'status' of our neighbor aggressively. May be its better to keep ur enemy's closer to play the chess better.

However MMS just wants to visit his birthplace often, don't know he thought of above in anyway.