Amar Jawan memorial vandalism

[miss]

The same logic has to be applied, of course, no doubt about that. WHOEVER breaks the law, irrespective of caste, creed or religion, should be punished, according to the law, nothing more, nothing less.

You know what is the real problem in India? That every time there is violence, a set of people start saying things FOR or AGAINST the violence based on some sectional interest. So Dalits are entitled to eat beef, say some who are pro-Dalit; they cannot anger the caste Hindu, say others; nobody bothers to check if it is against the law, or permitted under the law, the ONLY criterion that should matter.

Now Muslims riot, and everybody is busy taking positions either for the rioters, excusing their rage, or suggesting weird and barbaric responses - kill them, ship them out to a neighbouring Islamic country, hand them over to the Army - or for them, saying their rage drove them out of control.

What is this rubbish?

We cannot have violence; peaceful protest is allowed, violent protest is not. The rioters MUST be caught, charged and prosecuted. They MUST be sentenced according to the law. Rage is NOT an excuse for violence, nor is rage an excuse for making the kind of preposterous remarks that have been made by 'enraged' members here. If rage does not justify the crimes of the rioters, why should it justify your stupid remarks?

It is a citizen's duty to uphold the rule of law. Everything else said or done other than in support of upholding the law is an action against the country and its constitution. JUST as bad as rioting in intent, different only in scope.

I agree with your statements. however the ground reality is differnet and far from ideal.
rather than chastising only people who are making these kind of stmnts, I think the mslims esp the guys like owaisi and imam bukhair have to categorically condemn this.
the problem is that the law of the land is different for them and us. and since the division of them and us has already been created in the mind and a clear cut division of land for them has been created and implemented very well by them. i think the rest of them in the land of 'us' will also need to be dealt with appropriately. when the them become a majority within us, then the law of the land will be changed where your children and my children will be suffering.

 

[Executioner]

These are real kafir and infidel kill them without mercy. They born to be terrorist.

 

[jbond197]

We cannot have violence; peaceful protest is allowed, violent protest is not. The rioters MUST be caught, charged and prosecuted. They MUST be sentenced according to the law.

That's where the problem starts, as application of the law of land is often driven by the politics of appeasement for the sake of votes! And that has been the cause of all the riots that took place in history of India..

Rage is NOT an excuse for violence, nor is rage an excuse for making the kind of preposterous remarks that have been made by 'enraged' members here. If rage does not justify the crimes of the rioters, why should it justify your stupid remarks?

Yeah you are right, we can not show our rage when attacks like 26/11 are happening. We can not show our displeasure and post comments when there is clearly evident vandalism going on on the streets by morons.. Please stop calling the remarks not of your liking as stupid they are just raised voices against the acts of vandals which can not be tolerated endlessly.. Wait for the day when they will come to attack you and your family then I will see your restraint.. As I said before, I would be happy to see these vandals dealt appropriately by the court of public as law of land will crumble under the weight of appeasement politics and will refuse to act against them. If you feel they are preposterous remarks then I am sorry to say we can not do much to help you..

It is a citizen's duty to uphold the rule of law. Everything else said or done other than in support of upholding the law is an action against the country and its constitution.

Oh and were the ones who organized protests and were involved in the act not the citizens of the country? They molested women, attacked police force, attacked a symbol held in high respect by many.. I can clearly see they were doing their duty and upholding the rule of their own law as they know law of land is in their hands and with the kind of political protection they got, no one would even touch them..

In the end, please keep your lessons of morality to yourself because if I see acts like these I would certainly like to raise my voice. You can very well sit in your house keeping hand on hand.. My apology in advance ,if at all my post appears offensive to you but believe me it is just an attempt of mine to give you a honest reply!!

 

[takeiteasy]

it is a horrible act. however, consider these muslims are from the ghettos of bombay where underworld and illegal activities thrive.

 

[jbond197]

it is a horrible act. however, consider these muslims are from the ghettos of bombay where underworld and illegal activities thrive.

Few of them seem to be from Hyderabad too one of the identified one is - constable Azhar Shaikh!!

 

[oFFbEAT]

.
.
When they'll be under attack.....they'll simply convert.....law abiding citizens that they are....upholder of non-violence.....
For them it is better to give in 'lawfully' than to fight back 'unlawfully'....

 

[chairborne ranger]

arseholes like these invite issues like gujrat......what the helll is this, what the furking is happening in assam how the helk it has anything to do with Mumbai? This is completely unacceptable and if things go worse because of this incident, I will blame only Muslims….during babri this people burned mumbai instead of delhi...even in Godhra, it was Muslims who first started off but unfortunately we don’t have the leadership of Modi in Mumbai, so it will be like “sab mar jao” ….I am not muslim or hindu…just a mumbaikar…but, things are not good in our country....dont see a good future for our kids!!! we allowed Pakistan just because Muslims wanted to have their own country…but we really played a very bad game and Jenah achieved his political aspirations!

My worst suggestion – Give Kashmir to Pakistan and also one hundred billion dollars, but they have to peacefully and gracefully accept all Muslims living in India…I guess this is the only solution I see, as muslims are more faithful to their religion than their nation…

Peace for all...

man, i totally feel what ure trying to say. It gets me pissed off as hell when **** like this happens. And i wont lie to you, sometimes, i am also filled with this unreasonable annoyance towards the muslims......But before asking them to sod off to pakistan, think of guys like amar shaheed havildar abdul hamid, who sacrificed his life, taking out 7 enemy tanks in 1965. He wasnt thinking of his religion....he was thinking of his country.....Think of the muslims who are out there on the border right NOW, away from their families, in harsh weather, standing there JUST to defend the idea of the country we call home.....How would those guys feel if they read this?


Yes, it reflects badly on the community everytime a fez wearing fanatic goes on rampage....That however does not make all indian muslims in india bad. The problem i see with a lot of these people is the simple fact that they seems to care about muslims more than others.......its not just these guys.....its your colleague whom you see complaining when muslims get arrested for terrorist acts.....its your gardener who requests you to take back your domestic help even when he's been caught stealing AND its those assholes who destroy memorials to people who died fighting for us, just coz some irrelevant (unts got killed in burma. (again not saying this is universal...i've had loads of muslim best friends who used to hang around at my place on saraswati puja, and DAMN, their mothers made some awesome mutton)....i guess its a problem with how a lot of these muslims are indoctrinated......imho care should be taken to give them modern schooling and values from the start.

living in a modern multi-cultural democracy AS a basic prerequisite , requires respecting your country more than respecting just members of your religion, otherwise we'd just end up killing each other. This country was already partitioned on the basis of religion once, and i'd die before i see it happen again. The people who act like this need to understand that. And if they cant make that happen, we should have some schemes to relocate them to countries where they'll fit in better.

They should also understand that acts like this increase communal tensions and provoke backlashes, much like gujarat, as u rightly mentioned......Burning stuff up in mumbai will not stop innocent muslims being killed in burma....but you go far enough, and it WILL get innocent muslims killed in mumbai, Which is very very sad, but is also true. The hindus are, of course, far more numerous, and backlash will, obviously be far more large scale. This is inevitable.No community is beyond being unreasonable. I frankly am sick of human rights faggots moaning about this, coz its the obvious reaction when communal provocations have been raised to ever pitch right?

Imho, the muslims in india, the good ones at least should understand the gap that has been formed b/w the communities, and the community as a whole needs to ditch its 'religion-before-all-$hit-eternal' mentality, and try bridging the gap. It IS true that almost NEVER do we see, muslim leaders venting frustration at such idiots....almost never do we see THEM trying to foster understanding of hindus, or communal harmony in their kind.......This is essantial, and is its avoidance raises questions in the minds of non muslims, and not without reason.....i've seen several muslim bastis bursting firecrackers when india loses to pakistan in a cricket match( again i dont mean we shouldnt be happy when pakistan wins...its a game after all, and its essential to recognise good sportsmanship..)...this alone illustrates my point.

In my home town, the muslims came out with a protest on the main road, with sticks, knives and swords, all business had to be closed down......they took the opportunity to pound automobiles, and shop faces......and sack and loot what was inside.....things like these cant be tolerated....communal sensitivity goes a long way, but frankly i'm giving up hope.....i knew some of those shopkeepers....some of them barely made it through the month, sacrificed many things to put their children to school.....one of them , a muslim man 80 years old, now has no one left to turn to...and no way to pay for his wife's treatment....so i say Fu(k this ****........i'm much rather have these assholes killed by brushfire rom a kalashnikov....they wont be killed coz they are muslims......they'll be killed coz they are a$$holes, who have no respect for the live and property of others......heck, do this enough it'll help keep communal tensions down to a point where innocent muslims wont be affected

 

[oFFbEAT]

^^^^Think of the Muslim Mughals who, despite of being invaders themselves fought many battles to keep Hindustan intact.....and think of their descendants who divided India......

 

[chairborne ranger]

oh and btw, my post was for indian muslims.....if they are bangladeshis...and my own nacestors lived and loved in that land for centuries...but if its bangladeshis, they arent our citizens, and since they dont have visa, they arent our responsibility.....the problem's gone out of hand ,its a full blown infestation now....kill em all...like ****** dogs..i dont care.....bury them according to custom and grow crops on their graves......that's the only way they'll ever repay us for whatever kindness we've shown them

 

[Icarus]

Pathetic, these people should have had some shame, at least spare the most sacred monuments! I hope arrests are made soon....

^^^^^I see a lot of harsh "Secularism" in the above posts........ehm

 

[chairborne ranger]

the mere point i'm trying to make here is that, FINE your religion means a lot to you....this is true for hindus, muslims, christians and sikhs.....though i never quite bought the definition of hinduism my family gave me, i understand that its sacred to many people. But what side do you choose at the end of the day?....its good to believe in something..makes life easier....but at the end of the day, arent we all trying to live and and work together, for something good, something greater that our own selfish concerns? How the hell are we supposed to do that if we all keep reverting to the same old communal mentality? .....how the hell are we supposed to live together if we always see each other as potential adversaries? With all due respect to our pakistani and bangladeshi friends....this country, this land....it good.....and its ours....and its worth fighting for......heck its worth fighting ourselves ,for if we have to...........how can we reach a better state of existance that all of us wish for, if we keep ourselves bogged down in stupid religious or regional concerns? how can we freaking come together and make this country , the promised land for all that belong to it, if we cant respect it as something greater than us?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree with your statements. however the ground reality is differnet and far from ideal.
rather than chastising only people who are making these kind of stmnts, I think the mslims esp the guys like owaisi and imam bukhair have to categorically condemn this.
the problem is that the law of the land is different for them and us. and since the division of them and us has already been created in the mind and a clear cut division of land for them has been created and implemented very well by them. i think the rest of them in the land of 'us' will also need to be dealt with appropriately. when the them become a majority within us, then the law of the land will be changed where your children and my children will be suffering.

You may be surprised to learn that you have encapsulated my sentiments precisely. It is due to rascals like Owaisi and Bukhari that there is a feeling of victimhood and a desire for parity, rather than equality - a subtle but very, very significant difference - among Muslims. By seeking parity as a group, they essentially sacrifice their individual rights as citizens enjoying the full protection of the law for a paper-thin community right, based on negotiation with other communities, which is orthogonal to the legal system. The way it works is that the misdeeds of one set of law-breakers is exchanged for the misdeeds of another set, and the leaders agree that these 'offset' each other! This is a travesty of justice, in fact, a complete negation of the rule of law.

These leaders will NEVER condemn such incidents, just as their counterparts will never condemn the counterpart incidents, and hoping for good sense from them is futile.

Your point about them and us is completely unacceptable. This is a reiteration of the communal view of society, and is completely opposed to the law or to the principle of the rule of law. Rather than sink back into the comfort of abdicating our individual judgement and our individual protection and status under the law, this course of action, dividing the land between them and us essentially submerges our individual identity into our group identity. Consider what that implies. It implies that for Jats, a khap panchayat determines life and death, and the punishment for crimes that exist only in the minds of socially retarded leaders. It implies that progressive Muslims are liable to be brought under some of the most ludicrous fatwas of mullahs who interpret the law with incredible ineptitude, ordering a raped daughter-in-law to marry her father-in-law, the erstwhile rapist. A Hindu is exposed to social sanction unless he or she marries according to the laws and divisions of Manu. The Dalit continue to get separate glasses and dishes, and to suffer social restrictions and humiliations of a mediaeval type.

That is what your suggestion entails.

Moving out from that situation involves distancing ourselves from communal identity, not sinking into it. It also involves challenging and rejecting the interpretation of nationhood in communal terms that our neighbours adopted, and discarding it with contempt, in favour of individual identity and egalitarian treatment under the rule of law.

It is your prescription, sadly, which will lead our children to the doomsday situation that you fear. Ironic but true.

 

[cyphercide]

This mob mentality has to go for good. India can't afford to be held hostage to a bunch of hooligans and the creeps who instigate them. The government as well as law enforcement shouldn't cower away from dealing a firm hand in fear of repercussions from the community engaging in this shenanigans.

This has nothing to do with religion, more so to the fact that the perpetrators act on the assumption that they can get away with it. In fact, many incidents involving mobs and vigilante justice in recent time involved Hindus and not Muslims.

 

[miss]

You may be surprised to learn that you have encapsulated my sentiments precisely. It is due to rascals like Owaisi and Bukhari that there is a feeling of victimhood and a desire for parity, rather than equality - a subtle but very, very significant difference - among Muslims. By seeking parity as a group, they essentially sacrifice their individual rights as citizens enjoying the full protection of the law for a paper-thin community right, based on negotiation with other communities, which is orthogonal to the legal system. The way it works is that the misdeeds of one set of law-breakers is exchanged for the misdeeds of another set, and the leaders agree that these 'offset' each other! This is a travesty of justice, in fact, a complete negation of the rule of law.

These leaders will NEVER condemn such incidents, just as their counterparts will never condemn the counterpart incidents, and hoping for good sense from them is futile.

Your point about them and us is completely unacceptable. This is a reiteration of the communal view of society, and is completely opposed to the law or to the principle of the rule of law. Rather than sink back into the comfort of abdicating our individual judgement and our individual protection and status under the law, this course of action, dividing the land between them and us essentially submerges our individual identity into our group identity. Consider what that implies. It implies that for Jats, a khap panchayat determines life and death, and the punishment for crimes that exist only in the minds of socially retarded leaders. It implies that progressive Muslims are liable to be brought under some of the most ludicrous fatwas of mullahs who interpret the law with incredible ineptitude, ordering a raped daughter-in-law to marry her father-in-law, the erstwhile rapist. A Hindu is exposed to social sanction unless he or she marries according to the laws and divisions of Manu. The Dalit continue to get separate glasses and dishes, and to suffer social restrictions and humiliations of a mediaeval type.

That is what your suggestion entails.

Moving out from that situation involves distancing ourselves from communal identity, not sinking into it. It also involves challenging and rejecting the interpretation of nationhood in communal terms that our neighbours adopted, and discarding it with contempt, in favour of individual identity and egalitarian treatment under the rule of law.

It is your prescription, sadly, which will lead our children to the doomsday situation that you fear. Ironic but true.

I will discuss only about the unaccesptable bit.
we are a westminster style parl democracy. but the critical difference is that there the model evolved with mostly educated and cool headed statesmen, here we have a motley bunch of goons and men of straw running the show leading a herd of equally uneducated and uncouth mass of people. (the great indian citizenry)
imagine a situation wherein the up/bihar/hyderabdi/bangladeshi thembecomes 20-25% of the population (a simliar proportion when partition happened). do you think a majority of them will care for democracy ? no way. what is happenng now is only the trailor -toparaphrse jundal. they will cause mayhem if they are not brought into the ambit of a common law and they are not dealt with sternly when the occassion calls.
now you can say that rioters from oher communitis should be dealt with simliarly but that is not the point. these riots are only a symptom of a deeper malaise and intetion of a majority of that community. why are they rioting in india if burmese beat up each other? have you ever seen them do that for 26/11 or parliamnet attcks or any other instance of pak sponsored activites over the last 20 years. Never ever. the salami slicing strategy of the chinese is followed here too.. first shah bano and now their demand that the muslms of ahmdi denomination who re not allowed to exhibit their beliefs. we cant let this happen. they are just 13% and we need to nip this n the bud. i dont mean cleansing or asking them to go , but deal with an iron fist and change law accordingly whee faith is not a matter of consideration inthe public realm. dispose of with wakaf and aimplb and simlar thing and bring everything in the ambit of the govt and beureucracy

 

[Joe Shearer]

That's where the problem starts, as application of the law of land is often driven by the politics of appeasement for the sake of votes! And that has been the cause of all the riots that took place in history of India..

And your response to failure to apply the law of the land is to react outside the law of the land? Does that sound rational evento you?

Yeah you are right, we can not show our rage when attacks like 26/11 are happening. We can not show our displeasure and post comments when there is clearly evident vandalism going on on the streets by morons.. Please stop calling the remarks not of your liking as stupid they are just raised voices against the acts of vandals which can not be tolerated endlessly..

It is the remarks of people like Owaisi and Bukhari that create trouble. What gives you the impression that the displeasure you display, and the comments you make, do not contribute to the same situation being perpetuated? What makes you so sure that vandalism by one side will be cured by vandalism, or worse, by another side? And what were the remarks I protested against other than inflammatory remarks that will lead to the situation that seems to enrage you so much?

As for my refraining from calling remarks and comments stupid, those remarks and comments that are stupid need to be called stupid, whatever they have been caused by, just as these acts of vandalism are stupid, no matter what they have been caused by. Provocation is no good reason for stupidity, either by rioting in the streets, or by passing around the sentiment that illegal action will in some way rectify the situation.

Wait for the day when they will come to attack you and your family then I will see your restraint.. As I said before, I would be happy to see these vandals dealt appropriately by the court of public as law of land will crumble under the weight of appeasement politics and will refuse to act against them. If you feel they are preposterous remarks then I am sorry to say we can not do much to help you..

First, stop making cheap remarks hinting that you are in some way in the forefront of a struggle and therefore are entitled to make egregious remarks without being questioned.

Second, I have already gone on record saying that my entire family lives by these principles, and we have faced threats from those who opposed it. The vandals who attacked my daughter, for instance, were vandals from the Shri Ram Sene. Where was your voice, where were your views, where were your comments when they were vandalizing restaurants and hotels and bars, even a few days ago? Does your anger come out only when Muslims are involved, or when vandals run riot?

Oh and were the ones who organized protests and were involved in the act not the citizens of the country? They molested women, attacked police force, attacked a symbol held in high respect by many.. I can clearly see they were at their duty and upholding the rule of their own law as they know law of land is in their hands and with the kind of political protection they got, no one would even touch them..

What is your point? Is anybody arguing that citizens of the country who break the law should go unpunished? I said the exact opposite. And why do you skim over the way in which the rule of law is weakened by reacting to one illegal incident by an illegal reponse?

In the end, please keep your lessons of morality to yourself because if I see acts like these I would certainly like to raise my voice. You can very well sit in your house keeping hand on hand.. Sorry if my post appears offensive to you but it is just attempt of mine to give you a honest response!!

Are you raising your voice outside your house? In a protest meeting, perhaps? In a citizen's group, marching to tell the politicians to stop fooling around and to act to enforce the law? Or are you just sitting in your house exuding righteous indignation at every pore at your computer?

Don't be such a hypocrite, please.

I will discuss only about the unaccesptable bit.
we are a westminster style parl democracy. but the critical difference is that there the model evolved with mostly educated and cool headed statesmen, here we have a motley bunch of goons and men of straw running the show leading a herd of equally uneducated and uncouth mass of people. (the great indian citizenry)
imagine a situation wherein the up/bihar/hyderabdi/bangladeshi thembecomes 20-25% of the population (a simliar proportion when partition happened). do you think a majority of them will care for democracy ? no way. what is happenng now is only the trailor -toparaphrse jundal. they will cause mayhem if they are not brought into the ambit of a common law and they are not dealt with sternly when the occassion calls.
now you can say that rioters from oher communitis should be dealt with simliarly but that is not the point. these riots are only a symptom of a deeper malaise and intetion of a majority of that community. why are they rioting in india if burmese beat up each other? have you ever seen them do that for 26/11 or parliamnet attcks or any other instance of pak sponsored activites over the last 20 years. Never ever. the salami slicing strategy of the chinese is followed here too.. first shah bano and now their demand that the muslms of ahmdi denomination who re not allowed to exhibit their beliefs. we cant let this happen. they are just 13% and we need to nip this n the bud. i dont mean cleansing or asking them to go , but deal with an iron fist and change law accordingly whee faith is not a matter of consideration inthe public realm. dispose of with wakaf and aimplb and simlar thing and bring everything in the ambit of the govt and beureucracy

Who is asking for anything else but the expulsion of faith from consideration in the public realm, or objecting to everything being brought under the ambitious of the administration? The AIMPLB is a totally self-certified bunch of interfering swine who have no business creating confusion, but what are we supposed to do about them? Other than ignore them for the regressive and mediaeval norms and principles they stand for.

Your point about Waqf and Waqf Boards escapes me. What harm has this done to anyone?