Alternate solution for Pakistan Navy to counter Large Navies ?

[Anony]

Friends, there is no alternative solution for PN than to increase the size and quality of their warships. These will take years but if Pakistan starts today atleast they will reach at their destination by 2030.

One of my personal thinking is since Pakistan's economy is no match to India, with their limited resources they should invest in submarines rather than surface warships. The reason behind is PN will never go for offensive with IN. In crisis situation their job is to protect their trade routes and ports. Surface ships can be targeted easily by air launched Brahmos and it's flight path and speed give little chance to escape. On the other hand submarines are hard to detect. They can survive long. India don't have considerable long range torpedos or underwater launched missiles at this point of time to shoot submarines from very long distance as we have Brahmos to knock out surface warships from more than 350km-400km when launched from air.

Thus to attack submarines INS ships will need to come closer to submarines. And if they can induct new gen AIP propulsion submarines than it will be an even match and their submarines will have a good chance to have a kill on INS ships first. Though India is inducting 12 P8I for this purpose with option for additional 12 P8I. Most of these will be based on Eastern command.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Pakistan's First Use Doctrine: Escalation Scenarios

Pakistan has clung to its "first use doctrine." However, the sobriety engendered by the Kargil War is now clearly visible. Pakistani strategists are now talking of a "graduated response" as opposed to a "massive response" or spasmodic release. Lt. Gen. Sardar F.S. Lodhi of the Pakistan Army, writing in the Defence Journal[22] clearly articulated a Pakistani view of the escalation ladder as under:
Conditions for Nuclear Release. "In a deteriorating military situation, when an Indian conventional attack is likely to break through our defences or has already breached the main defence line - causing a major setback to defences which cannot be restored by conventional means at our disposal, the government would be left with no option except to use nuclear weapons to stabilize the situation. India's superiority in conventional arms and manpower would have to be offset by nuclear weapons. Pakistan's nuclear doctrine, therefore, would essentially revolve around the first strike option.[23]"
Graduated Escalation. Gen Lodhi states, "This would entail a stage by stage approach in which the nuclear threat is increased at each step to deter India from attack.[24]"
First Step. Public or private warning[25].
Second Step. Demonstration explosion of a small nuclear weapon on Pakistani soil[26].
Third Step. Use of a few nuclear weapons on its own soil against Indian conventional forces[27].
Fourth Step. Nuclear weapons employed against critical but purely military targets in India across the border from Pakistan, probably in thinly populated areas in the desert or semi-desert, causing less collateral damage[28].
Counter-Value. Some weapons would be in reserve for the counter- value role[29].
Read more: India and Pakistan Limited conventional war a viable strategy | American Essays



Lt. Gen. K.M. Arif has stated that both India and Pakistan are not crazy countries. If the strategy of deterrence works in other parts of the world, it is bound to work in this region as well. It is highly doubtful if either country would use nuclear weapons against each other.59 Lt. Gen. Khalid Kidwai of the Strategic Plans Division of the Pakistan Army defined the nuclear threshold as under:
Nuclear weapons are aimed solely at India.
In case deterrence fails, they will be used under the following conditions:
Space Threshold. India attacks Pakistan and conquers large parts of its territory.
Military Threshold. India destroys a large part of Pakistan's land or air forces.
Economic Threshold. India proceeds to the economic strangulation of Pakistan. This would include a naval blockade and stoppage of the Indus waters.
Internal Threshold. India pushes Pakistan into political destabilisation or creates large scale internal subversion in Pakistan.60
The Kidwai Thesis is largely academic. Lt. Gen. Lodhi's thesis is far more specific and could well represent Pakistan's nuclear escalation options.
Analysis of Pakistani Escalation Ladder

Analysis of the Pakistani escalation ladder clearly highlights the sobering effects of Kargil.The conditionalities for nuclear release are ambiguous. They stretch from "breaching the main defence line to actual breach. It next graduates to a major setback which cannot be restored by conventional means." The Pakistani nuclear threshold, therefore, has a very elastic bandwidth. The absurdity of the massive response strategy was highlighted to the USA in the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. The Kargil War has similarly forced Pakistan into a flexible response strategy. Gen. Lodhi's escalation ladder is clearly graduated. It commences with a "nuclear shot across the bow" and then graduates to a purely military use of nuclear weapons, first on its own soil and only then on ours. The anxiety to avert a devastating counter-value Indian response is clearly evident. Use against military targets in semi-desert/desert regions of low population density is also designed to mitigate international criticism and increase plausibility of such nuclear release.
Read more: India and Pakistan Limited conventional war a viable strategy | American Essays


India and Pakistan Limited conventional war a viable strategy | American Essays

 

[alimobin memon]

Its obvious that in terms of war and to save your nation you dont follow rules u go rebel ... u send dummies, propaganda efforts and now Definitely a nuclear..... UN maybe the barricade to do so but Nation wont listen at that time. And the UN themselves believe that India and pakistan wont hesitate to use it...

 

[Zabaniyah]

Japan Operates the 2nd largest fleet in asia

The JMSDF is one of the world's largest navies and the second largest navy in Asia.

It operates

4 helicopter destroyers
8 guided-missile destroyers
30 frigates
6 light-frigates
16 sixteen attack submarines (SSK)

If a small country like Japan (who under sanctions to have navy can have so many ships and vesseles I am sure Pakistan a nuclear power nation can also have many ships

We need to counter the with higher Frigate and Destroyers

Since when was Japan under sanctions? (please, don't mention the WWII period)

Dude, do you have any idea how large and advanced their economy is relative to any South Asian country? They are even more advanced than the Americans on some aspects!

Navy and air force matters are very expensive, and the state of the economy really do matter.

As someone once said: "It's the economy, stupid."

 

[alimobin memon]

f22p like frigates cost 175 million dollar each and type 54 A should be around 300 million dollar I dont know actual price but that is big money. a cruise missile or 800 km range quasi missile cost around 900'000 Dollars to 2 million dollars so if we have very low budget and we cant buy huge ships if a defense umbrella of diameter of 500 km to -600 km missile defense of several type (like Cruise missile SAM's of short range and Quasi ballistic missiles with hypersonic speed) lets say a a missile each costs around 2million dollars if only stationed 40-50, plus 20km HQ2B or SD10 SAM system 10-12 costs around 70million dollars which can be an excellent Coastal defense in just around 200 million dollars max.

In my opinion which can by far be better than any corvette, missile boats or a F22p Class frigates. I suggest rather than buying Ships buy submarine and build a defense umbrella .

 

[Badbadman]

Pakistan's First Use Doctrine: Escalation Scenarios

Pakistan has clung to its "first use doctrine." However, the sobriety engendered by the Kargil War is now clearly visible. Pakistani strategists are now talking of a "graduated response" as opposed to a "massive response" or spasmodic release. Lt. Gen. Sardar F.S. Lodhi of the Pakistan Army, writing in the Defence Journal[22] clearly articulated a Pakistani view of the escalation ladder as under:
Conditions for Nuclear Release. "In a deteriorating military situation, when an Indian conventional attack is likely to break through our defences or has already breached the main defence line - causing a major setback to defences which cannot be restored by conventional means at our disposal, the government would be left with no option except to use nuclear weapons to stabilize the situation. India's superiority in conventional arms and manpower would have to be offset by nuclear weapons. Pakistan's nuclear doctrine, therefore, would essentially revolve around the first strike option.[23]"
Graduated Escalation. Gen Lodhi states, "This would entail a stage by stage approach in which the nuclear threat is increased at each step to deter India from attack.[24]"
First Step. Public or private warning[25].
Second Step. Demonstration explosion of a small nuclear weapon on Pakistani soil[26].
Third Step. Use of a few nuclear weapons on its own soil against Indian conventional forces[27].
Fourth Step. Nuclear weapons employed against critical but purely military targets in India across the border from Pakistan, probably in thinly populated areas in the desert or semi-desert, causing less collateral damage[28].
Counter-Value. Some weapons would be in reserve for the counter- value role[29].
Read more: India and Pakistan Limited conventional war a viable strategy | American Essays



Lt. Gen. K.M. Arif has stated that both India and Pakistan are not crazy countries. If the strategy of deterrence works in other parts of the world, it is bound to work in this region as well. It is highly doubtful if either country would use nuclear weapons against each other.59 Lt. Gen. Khalid Kidwai of the Strategic Plans Division of the Pakistan Army defined the nuclear threshold as under:
Nuclear weapons are aimed solely at India.
In case deterrence fails, they will be used under the following conditions:
Space Threshold. India attacks Pakistan and conquers large parts of its territory.
Military Threshold. India destroys a large part of Pakistan's land or air forces.
Economic Threshold. India proceeds to the economic strangulation of Pakistan. This would include a naval blockade and stoppage of the Indus waters.
Internal Threshold. India pushes Pakistan into political destabilisation or creates large scale internal subversion in Pakistan.60
The Kidwai Thesis is largely academic. Lt. Gen. Lodhi's thesis is far more specific and could well represent Pakistan's nuclear escalation options.
Analysis of Pakistani Escalation Ladder

Analysis of the Pakistani escalation ladder clearly highlights the sobering effects of Kargil.The conditionalities for nuclear release are ambiguous. They stretch from "breaching the main defence line to actual breach. It next graduates to a major setback which cannot be restored by conventional means." The Pakistani nuclear threshold, therefore, has a very elastic bandwidth. The absurdity of the massive response strategy was highlighted to the USA in the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. The Kargil War has similarly forced Pakistan into a flexible response strategy. Gen. Lodhi's escalation ladder is clearly graduated. It commences with a "nuclear shot across the bow" and then graduates to a purely military use of nuclear weapons, first on its own soil and only then on ours. The anxiety to avert a devastating counter-value Indian response is clearly evident. Use against military targets in semi-desert/desert regions of low population density is also designed to mitigate international criticism and increase plausibility of such nuclear release.
Read more: India and Pakistan Limited conventional war a viable strategy | American Essays


India and Pakistan Limited conventional war a viable strategy | American Essays

If am not wrong it is clearly mentioned that any nuclear use on Indian armed forces even inside pakistan would result in nuclear retaliation by India. Pakistan has to chose very carefully what options does it exercises. Naval blockade or Water issues wont be pushing pakistan for a nuclear option. There is no stablization point in case of war that either party (most likely pakistan) can bring by using nuclear offence. Pakistan army leadership understands that using nuclear attack to bring any stability in the war will only make it more unstable, risk of getting it to a point of no return. Only option is stop or slow down Indian advance in pakistani territory if any or buy enough time for global intervention to mediate.

 

[Donatello]

Alternative? I think Pakistan already has alternative. Hand over Gwader to China for as much berthing rights as they want. Let India go bankrupt in it's quest to have a blue water navy.

 

[Anony]

Alternative? I think Pakistan already has alternative. Hand over Gwader to China for as much berthing rights as they want. Let India go bankrupt in it's quest to have a blue water navy.

Already given Pakistan occupied Kashmir to China,now Gwadar Port, then give some land connected with Afganistan and steadily & slowly the parliament situated at Islamabad.

 

[Donatello]

Already given Pakistan occupied Kashmir to China,now Gwadar Port, then give some land connected with Afganistan and steadily & slowly the parliament situated at Islamabad.

Ya, you got a problem with that?

Japan was nuked not once, but twice by USA and yet they let USA handle their defense and USA maintains a large Pacific presence in Japan. Same with Europe. Allies help allies. But because you are a shortsighted Indian like the billions out there, what would you know?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Creating GDP is government's job , my suggestion was to keep building frigates and destroyers

 

[Mitro]

I am surprise how a small nation fought 3 war and got broken in two pieces still pose challenge to a nation 3 times its size and able to survive all the odds and manage to occupy big piece of land [Kashmir].Economy sucks but makes very good decision on selecting weapon system and make most of them locally and very cheaper to maintain balance in conventional forces with its .Agosta90B With MESMA AIP and we place an order of scorpene class without AIP [may be future upgrade]

 

[Ayush]

Alternative? I think Pakistan already has alternative. Hand over Gwader to China for as much berthing rights as they want. Let India go bankrupt in it's quest to have a blue water navy.

bankrupt. we don't go to imf..
worry about yourself. .

 

[Anony]

Ya, you got a problem with that?

Japan was nuked not once, but twice by USA and yet they let USA handle their defense and USA maintains a large Pacific presence in Japan. Same with Europe. Allies help allies. But because you are a shortsighted Indian like the billions out there, what would you know?

From where does the nuking of Japan by USA came here. And USN ships don't keep hovering in Japanese water. It's only during exercise. And also that Japan has not transferred the ownership of it's land or port to US. It's only the strategic decision making of Japan which to some extent is influenced by USA. And why that is so, both of us know from the post WWII history and my mentioning that I don't wanna hurt some sentiments. The important thing is Japan's case is no way similar to the present incident of yours nation.

And yes Indian are not shortsighted. Keep that for leaders of your own country who created terrorist to disturb us and now you are been attacked by them.

 

[Donatello]

From where does the nuking of Japan by USA came here. And USN ships don't keep hovering in Japanese water. It's only during exercise. And also that Japan has not transferred the ownership of it's land or port to US. It's only the strategic decision making of Japan which to some extent is influenced by USA. And why that is so, both of us know from the post WWII history and my mentioning that I don't wanna hurt some sentiments. The important thing is Japan's case is no way similar to the present incident of yours nation.

And yes Indian are not shortsighted. Keep that for leaders of your own country who created terrorist to disturb us and now you are been attacked by them.

What is this then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Fleet_Activities_Yokosuka


And China DOES NOT own Gwader. Pakistan does. Pakistan has just transferred the operational use of it to China, to attract them to invest there and develop the city as a whole.

Like i said, You and your fellow countrymen are too busy bringing up the terrorist excuses while having diarrhea at the same time that China has got the presence in Arabian sea, and perhaps at the most important route of them all.


Meanwhile....talking about leaders....hmm Indira Gandhi and Rajeev Gandhi were both assassinated along ethnic tensions in India. The female bomber who blew herself up to kill Rajeev was actually RAW trained Tiger destined for Sri Lanka. So don't lecture us on this terrorist bullshyt. Seems like it forms part of India's history.


DuH!

 

[Storm Force]

DONTELLO

HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION OF THIS THREAD...

Question was HOW to counter a GROWING NAVY that inducting formidable weapons like carriers and nuke subs frigates and destroyers.

ANSWER ... Give china GWADER hope that india ATTACKS this city AND HOPE that china comes to aid PAKISTAN.

CONCLUSION little like the PAF the PAK NAVY will not have a CLEAR AND CONCISE answer of lets wait and see cause we aint got no money $$$$$$$$$4