Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Georg]

Turkey will totally cut the breath of Germany at export markets. It will be no need to stand the ego of German parliaments anymore !


View attachment 598886

Sorry have to laugh my *** off about how naiv you are.

MTU delivers proofen reliable, low consumption, low maintenance engines, with a very high degree of serive help.
Countless countrys use MTU engines since decades... Turkey can develop what they want they will never brake into that MTU dominated market... only hope for them are their own Army or nations Germany does not sell stuff since decades. There their competition are russia and china... good luck trying to outsmart Russia and China in the game they play since the cold war....

 

[merzifonlu]

@Georg

I agree with you. I think from this moment the Altay Project has died under its current configuration. In my opinion Turkey must cancel the Altay Project and must go to a new configuration. In fact, Turkey should do it at least 5 years ago.

IMO reliable domestic power pack (1800 HP) development is unrealistic due to international geopolitical environment, time and budget constraints.

 

[Ruhnama]

So Turks must designing a new tank concept? Lighter tank maybe but carry 120 mm gun

 

[merzifonlu]

IMO Instead of the 70-ton MBT, we need an armored (heavily armored) combat vehicle operated by 2 people.

There will be two types:

1- With 35/40 mm rapid fire autocannon,
2- With ATGM (20 and more ATGM)

They are estimated to be 45-50 ton vehicles. These will be unmanned automatic towers. These two armored vehicles always act as a team.

Fırtına 1/2 howitzers and these are equipped with the same 1000 hp domestic power pack, thus providing logistical advantages.

I think we cannot build a 70-ton MBT (with a 120/135 mm cannon) without eliminating conflicts of interest with Germany and the Western Bloc. It would be a dream to think otherwise.

 

[TheMightyBender]

its the nature of geopolitical changes, unexpected things happen and one has to adapt. but to be fair, the Arjun and Tejas situations are worse.. And Turkey seems closer to finishing the Altay project than what it looks like compared to the Arjun or the Tejas, which will be an underperforming and outdated fighter, which failed to meet full targets.

The Altay's subsystems are still fairly new and its performance is comparable to other tanks, and it doesnt seem like Turkey is all too behind in tank development compared to other countries. Engine and Transmission are a problem, but not something that can't be fixed with time, and the tank can continuously be upgraded like the Merkhava. And Turkey has enough of the Leopard stock, where there isnt a dire need that needs to be immediately met.

I feel the TF-X situation is a lot more dire, I can't even find out what engine they are going to use, some people said EJ200 engine, and then a drop in replacement thats locally developed. Then I heard General Electric F110, which is supposed to be replaced by a different drop in replacement. I can't even seem to narrow down, which local company is building the local engine(I heard TRMOTOR, but before that I heard Tusas), let alone discuss the extreme challenges and hazards of developing a competitive engine from scratch, even the russians are having problems with the izdeliye 30, which is horribly delayed, and lets not even discuss the Chinese and their troubles.. Right now it seems the only companies that at able to build good engines are GE, Pratt and Whitney, and RollsRoyce, with Snecma/Safran being close being them.

I think Turkey should try to get back in the f-35 program, and try to come towards a compromise over the s-400, or alternatively join the BAE Tempest program, and hope that it helps them in their development of the TF-X, like sweden is hoping to do. The other options are kind of bleak, as it would be reliant on the russians.

You offer lack of engine as the reason to cancel the TFX and then go on to propose joining the tempest program. If we can go as far as joining Britain’s 6th (?) gen fighter jet program what makes you think we can’t just buy engines from them and build the rest of the fighter ourselves?

In fact foreign restrictions on exports of weapons to Turkey is the whole reason Turkey is going indigenous on defence production.

The problem of TFX engine is seriously misunderstood by many. Turkey has no problems finding an engine for the TFX! The problem is that Turkey is not content with importing an engine and wants to own the IP rights of the engine instead. In fact many companies have offered engines for TFX many times (EJ200, modified EJ200, rolls royce and even the Russians have made an offer), Turkey could easily pick one of those and move on, but that would create problems in the long term like in Altay.

For the time being the plan is as such: TAI has bought 5 engines from Pratt & Whitney (correct me if I am wrong). The first prototypes of the TFX will be built with these. In the meantime TRMotor will work on Turkey’s indigenous engine in partnership with RR.

If things go south in the process, my guess is that Turkey will go with one of the aforementioned engines in the medium term.

 

[hyperman]

You offer lack of engine as the reason to cancel the TFX

Where did I say this? lol

The only thing I eluded to was that it seemed the project was directionless, b/c they can't even decide what engine. The General Electric F110 and the EJ200 engine are two different classes of engines, all I said was there were strange and conflicting news stories coming out.. they are of different weight classes and produce different amounts of thrust, not interchangeable, the whole profile of the aircraft changes depending on which engine is used..

If we can go as far as joining Britain’s 6th (?) gen fighter jet program what makes you think we can’t just buy engines from them and build the rest of the fighter ourselves?

what makes you think I was opposed to the possibility that turkey should buy an engine and build the rest of the aircraft on its own. You are misunderstanding what I wrote.. If anything I think it would be ideal for Turkey to buy the EJ200 engine for the first batches of jets in exchange for rolls royce helping develop an indigenous engine that would be a drop in replacement.

The reason as to why I suggested by reservations about the Engine project being tied to the TF-X project was b/c the Tejas being tied to the Kaveri Engine was something that stunted the Tejas project. whatever the domestic engine is, it should be seen as a drop in replacement, and not seen as something that the overall project is reliant on. the Scope of the project is far too big to try to develop both a modern competitive fighter and an engine, all in one go.

The reason I mentioned the Tempest was b/c of the same reason that Sweden joined the project despite them also wanting to develop the Flygsystem 2020, that they have been working on. Its to gain experience in development that can be transported to their own fighter.

 

[TheMightyBender]

Where did I say this? lol

If you dont know where you said that you are either drunk or you are not aware of what comes out of your mouth. Just read your own comment, find the place where you said the TFX should be scrapped then go back from there and try to find out if you mentioned any problems about TFX that are not born out of your imagination.

The only other thing I could say to you is that just because you are not aware of an engine choice doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Just because you are confused doesnt mean everyone is.

 

[Ansu fati]

its the nature of geopolitical changes, unexpected things happen and one has to adapt. but to be fair, the Arjun and Tejas situations are worse.. And Turkey seems closer to finishing the Altay project than what it looks like compared to the Arjun or the Tejas, which will be an underperforming and outdated fighter, which failed to meet full targets.

The Altay's subsystems are still fairly new and its performance is comparable to other tanks, and it doesnt seem like Turkey is all too behind in tank development compared to other countries. Engine and Transmission are a problem, but not something that can't be fixed with time, and the tank can continuously be upgraded like the Merkhava. And Turkey has enough of the Leopard stock, where there isnt a dire need that needs to be immediately met.

I feel the TF-X situation is a lot more dire, I can't even find out what engine they are going to use, some people said EJ200 engine, and then a drop in replacement thats locally developed. Then I heard General Electric F110, which is supposed to be replaced by a different drop in replacement. I can't even seem to narrow down, which local company is building the local engine(I heard TRMOTOR, but before that I heard Tusas), let alone discuss the extreme challenges and hazards of developing a competitive engine from scratch, even the russians are having problems with the izdeliye 30, which is horribly delayed, and lets not even discuss the Chinese and their troubles.. Right now it seems the only companies that at able to build good engines are GE, Pratt and Whitney, and RollsRoyce, with Snecma/Safran being close being them.

I think Turkey should try to get back in the f-35 program, and try to come towards a compromise over the s-400, or alternatively join the BAE Tempest program, and hope that it helps them in their development of the TF-X, like sweden is hoping to do. The other options are kind of bleak, as it would be reliant on the russians.

1.Patriot TOT and SAMP/T TOT
2. northern syria to be delivered to turkey
3.Gülen extradited
4.Sahin cilo and his gang to be killed in drone strikes you can copy soleimani case-he was cheated and set up
5.f-16 block 50/52 acces of the mission computer must be given cause americans will anyway spy TAF through ALIS of F-35
After all of this is done then getting rid of s400 can be done quite easily
Turkish-US issues are multi-dimensional you can’t expect s400 to be ditched only for F-35 because americans have poisoned military-to military relations when they decided to put turkish F-35 in storage instead of delivering it
I hear greece wants to buy F-35 but whole agean sea will be covered by s400
Same thing with israel and s400 in syria
I am bringing up these two arguments already before you start saying how s400 can steal F-35 stealth tech

 

[Timur]

1.Patriot TOT and SAMP/T TOT
2. northern syria to be delivered to turkey
3.Gülen extradited
4.Sahin cilo and his gang to be killed in drone strikes you can copy soleimani case-he was cheated and set up
5.f-16 block 50/52 acces of the mission computer must be given cause americans will anyway spy TAF through ALIS of F-35
After all of this is done then getting rid of s400 can be done quite easily
Turkish-US issues are multi-dimensional you can’t expect s400 to be ditched only for F-35 because americans have poisoned military-to military relations when they decided to put turkish F-35 in storage instead of delivering it
I hear greece wants to buy F-35 but whole agean sea will be covered by s400
Same thing with israel and s400 in syria
I am bringing up these two arguments already before you start saying how s400 can steal F-35 stealth tech

after greece gettng f35 and only the possibility that they could have it.. we need to get a way to detect f35.. and not only f35 we need to keep building up our radar tech and trying to invest some more money into this

I say if we dont get f35 than we should team up with russians to detect it! (I dont want a plane that has an kill switch and a trojan horse onboard and the possibleity of a downgraded version sucks..)

 

[hyperman]

If you dont know where you said that you are either drunk or you are not aware of what comes out of your mouth. Just read your own comment, find the place where you said the TFX should be scrapped then go back from there

Perhaps english isn't your first language, but maybe you can quote where I said such alleged things. I explicitly wrote "and hope that it **helps them in their development of the TF-X**, like sweden is hoping to do." why would I write something like that If was trying to suggest any scrapping? In fact, I never even used the work Scrap.

just because you are not aware of an engine choice doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Just because you are confused doesnt mean everyone is.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...oyce-to-power-turkeys-indigenous-fighter-jet/
https://www.defensenews.com/industr...oyce-to-power-turkeys-indigenous-fighter-jet/
this was a report about a year back of in around the end of 2018. before this there was a report which suggested a derivative of the EJ2000 was being used.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/aselsan-signs-cooperation-deal-with-eurojet-77198


then it was reported that Tusas may build the engine

https://www.aksam.com.tr/foto-galer...torunu-gelistirmek-uzere-teklif-verdi/43206/6

until finally reports came out that it will be TRMotor. Its not too hard to understand why someone from the outside may be a bit confused over what exactly is going on.. How could design requirement change so radically that the EJ2000 is abandoned and an engine in a totally different class with the F110? those are very different engine classes, the F110 is a f-15/f-16 engine, its a bigger engine than the EJ2000, its like suggesting you were designing a mig-29 and then decided 2 years later than you will put a su-27 AL-31 in there. Its not possible.. comparable engines to the EJ2000 class are the General Electric F414, if you were to substitute engines you would use that, or something like the Snecma M88 engine powering the Rafale, or the RD-33 on the Mig-29/35 not something that powers the f-15, engines comparable to that class of engines are bigger, and meant for bigger aircraft(which btw also affects the role of the aircraft if you are using a 2 engine setup with bigger engines as opposed to a lighter fighter like the f-16).

1.Patriot TOT and SAMP/T TOT
2. northern syria to be delivered to turkey
3.Gülen extradited
4.Sahin cilo and his gang to be killed in drone strikes you can copy soleimani case-he was cheated and set up
5.f-16 block 50/52 acces of the mission computer must be given cause americans will anyway spy TAF through ALIS of F-35
After all of this is done then getting rid of s400 can be done quite easily
Turkish-US issues are multi-dimensional you can’t expect s400 to be ditched only for F-35 because americans have poisoned military-to military relations when they decided to put turkish F-35 in storage instead of delivering it
I hear greece wants to buy F-35 but whole agean sea will be covered by s400
Same thing with israel and s400 in syria
I am bringing up these two arguments already before you start saying how s400 can steal F-35 stealth tech

Yes, a lot of these things can be addressed with negotiations, but there are some things that are going to need compromise on both sides, i think the selling of the Patriot can be done, as well as including Turkey in the Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS) program, that is supposed to be the successor to the Patriot. As well as selling a THAAD system to Turkey. And helping Turkey develop their own system. As for Gulen, its very unlikely he will be extradited, he is also an old man, in all likelihood he will die in pennsylvania, its one of the things that on the Turkish side there should be compromise on, as its unlikely congress or the US courts will allow his extradition as they don't feel there is enough direct evidence to warrant an extradition(im not here to argue over that element). On the American side, its very unlikely Turkey will cancel the s-400 deal or return the system, but perhaps there can be a deal to not deploy the system and keep it in storage, that maybe they can compromise on. One the Syria element, I think eventually the US will withdraw from syria, and that shouldnt be an issue long term, Turkey's issue in syria if you ask me is more dependent on how the russians will treat the PKK and their relationship as well as the regime..

 

[Saithan]

Only time us gives up syria to turkey is when we’ve alteady won. It’ll be symbolic gesture. But if we have to work for it and us keep supplying ypg with arms then you can’t really say they gave up on them. Difference is how much support they give. And imo giving arms is the bare minimum.
It’s quite complicated. What turkey wants is for us to hand over the dirty laundry, so to speak.

 

[Dai Toruko]

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1219623114616770560

https://twitter.com/x/status/1219623116520992769

https://twitter.com/x/status/1219210541564145665

 

[MKALE1]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1219623114616770560

https://twitter.com/x/status/1219623116520992769

https://twitter.com/x/status/1219210541564145665

It always seems to me that the subject of this tank is outdated. Hezbollah hit about 150 Israeli tanks in the 2006 war, so we are not in World War 2 anymore. What is this tank love? What are the advantages of tanks compared to other platforms?

 

[merzifonlu]

What is this tank love? What are the advantages of tanks compared to other platforms?

Nothing. But; "NATO mermer, NATO kafa!"

If you absolutely need heavily armored, this vehicle should carry a single weapon in a small automatic turret.