Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[AnatolianEagle]

 

[-------]

Clip from Tumosan. Engineer explains in detail why their contract was cancelled.

 

[Mr.Department]

In short for our international members :

There will be a new tender in 4 months. Without technical assistance partner we can't develop an engine in 54 months.
Altay transmission ratio is complex. Altay space is limited. Ukrainian engine will not fit in this limited space.Development with Ukraine is for other models.Austria made political problems and restrictions.

....

Finally we can summarize. Engine project for Altay has no alternative than MTU. Finish

@HRK

 

[Path-Finder]

In short for our international members :

There will be a new tender in 4 months. Without technical assistance partner we can't develop an engine in 54 months.
Altay transmission ratio is complex. Altay space is limited. Ukrainian engine will not fit in this limited space.Development with Ukraine is for other models.Austria made political problems and restrictions.

....

Finally we can summarize. Engine project for Altay has no alternative than MTU. Finish

@HRK

isn't South Korea making an indigenous engine for K2 tank? maybe that is the best way forward.

 

[T-123456]

In short for our international members :

There will be a new tender in 4 months. Without technical assistance partner we can't develop an engine in 54 months.
Altay transmission ratio is complex. Altay space is limited. Ukrainian engine will not fit in this limited space.Development with Ukraine is for other models.Austria made political problems and restrictions.

....

Finally we can summarize. Engine project for Altay has no alternative than MTU. Finish

@HRK

Dont worry we will get an MTU like engine,''developed'' by a Turkish company.

 

[Mr.Department]

Dont worry we will get an MTU like engine,''developed'' by a Turkish company.

I could kiss you. Come on now otherwise I can't sleep, give a little hint. Which company ?
Or was it sarcastic ?

 

[T-123456]

I could kiss you. Come on now otherwise I can't sleep, give a little hint. Which company ?
Or was it sarcastic ?

Could be a MTU like company,who knows?

 

[Mr.Department]

isn't South Korea making an indigenous engine for K2 tank? maybe that is the best way forward.

Difficult:

In April 2012, DAPA announced that due to ongoing issues with the reliability and durability of the domestically-produced powerpack, the first 100 production K2s would use German-made MTU powerpack and that service entry would be delayed until March 2014
The first 15 K2 Black Panther tanks were put into service in June 2014. Faulty indigenous engines and transmissions previously halted production, but the lowering of required acceleration performance allowed it to enter service. The "power pack" of tank is intended to be locally developed. Until that occurs, they will employ German-made MTU power plants, making possible the deployment of around 100 K2s by 2017.Tanks under the second contract, after the first 100 models, will be built with the domestic Doosan DST 1,500 hp engine and S&T Dynamics automatic transmission, beginning delivery in late 2016.

@T-123456

Ok. Now I understand. Your hint fits

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

Difficult:

In April 2012, DAPA announced that due to ongoing issues with the reliability and durability of the domestically-produced powerpack, the first 100 production K2s would use German-made MTU powerpack and that service entry would be delayed until March 2014
The first 15 K2 Black Panther tanks were put into service in June 2014. Faulty indigenous engines and transmissions previously halted production, but the lowering of required acceleration performance allowed it to enter service. The "power pack" of tank is intended to be locally developed. Until that occurs, they will employ German-made MTU power plants, making possible the deployment of around 100 K2s by 2017.Tanks under the second contract, after the first 100 models, will be built with the domestic Doosan DST 1,500 hp engine and S&T Dynamics automatic transmission, beginning delivery in late 2016.

@T-123456

Ok. Now I understand. Your hint fits

Old links :

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/altay-mbt-program-updates-discussions.211194/page-160#post-9119457

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/altay-mbt-program-updates-discussions.211194/page-160#post-9119468


...

 

[Mr.Department]

Old links :

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/altay-mbt-program-updates-discussions.211194/page-160#post-9119457

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/altay-mbt-program-updates-discussions.211194/page-160#post-9119468


...

That is exact what I quoted. I would be the happiest person if DOSAN would co-produce them in Turkey.
If they do it, then we can also hope that we can profit from their space program.
Ukraine, I am not sure, if they have balls to cooperate with Turkey. They can easily be blackmailed from EU,USA and Russia. Ukroturk is lving there and I trust if he says they are not realy independent but depend on western foreign help and Russia too.
Difficult situation.

 

[HRK]

In short for our international members :

There will be a new tender in 4 months. Without technical assistance partner we can't develop an engine in 54 months.
Altay transmission ratio is complex. Altay space is limited. Ukrainian engine will not fit in this limited space.Development with Ukraine is for other models.Austria made political problems and restrictions.

....

Finally we can summarize. Engine project for Altay has no alternative than MTU. Finish

@HRK

I am not getting is there an issue with purposed Ukrainian engine in terms of dimensions or with Transmission ....

If its related to the dimensions of engine or space available for engine bay then it means Altay was specifically designed for MTU engine & its engine bay would not except any other engine, on a side note if you people don't take offence I would like to say it reflect the bad planing & to an extent design as well, the planners & designers of Altay failed to foresee the 'non-engineering' issues & hurdles related to this project. The over emphasis on one vendor/supplier has created a potential weak spot in the program which other can exploit

OTH if the issue is only related to transmission then we faced the same issue in our Al-Khalid program so to resolve it we use French ESM-500 (same as Leclerc tank) rather using Ukrainian transmission with their engine

@Dazzler I would like to known your comment which might helpful ...

 

[Path-Finder]

I am not getting is there an issue with purposed Ukrainian engine in terms of dimensions or with Transmission ....

If its related to the dimensions of engine or space available for engine bay then it means Altay was specifically designed for MTU engine & its engine bay would not except any other engine, on a side note if you people don't take offence I would like to say it reflect the bad planing & to an extent design as well, the planners & designers of Altay failed to foresee the 'non-engineering' issues & hurdles related to this project. The over emphasis on one vendor/supplier has created a potential weak spot in the program which other can exploit

OTH if the issue is only related to transmission then we faced the same issue in our Al-Khalid program so to resolve it we use French ESM-500 (same as Leclerc tank) rather using Ukrainian transmission with their engine

@Dazzler I would like to known your comment which might helpful ...

ESM500 – High-end transmission for 50+ tons class vehicles

The automatic gearbox ESM500, installed in the French main battle tank Leclerc can be coupled to a maximum 1600hp engine. A complete powerpack can also be proposed for other applications like Al-Khalid or other ‘above 50 tons class’ vehicles.

• Powerpack design
• Manual and fully automatic power-shifting
• 5 speed forward – 2 speed reverse
• Infinitely variable hydrostatic steering system actuated by a steering wheel, including pivot on the spot feature
• Mechanical emergency gear shift system
• Torque converter with automatic lock-up clutch
• Secondary side heavy duty retarder
• High performance mechanical carbon-carbon service/parking brake separately mounted
• Power take-off for fan drive with full digital speed control

http://www.renk-france.fr/esm500-–-high-end-power-pack-for-50-tons-class-vehicles

I didn't know that French Transmission was used in AK's

 

[-------]

I am not getting is there an issue with purposed Ukrainian engine in terms of dimensions or with Transmission ....

If its related to the dimensions of engine or space available for engine bay then it means Altay was specifically designed for MTU engine & its engine bay would not except any other engine, on a side note if you people don't take offence I would like to say it reflect the bad planing & to an extent design as well, the planners & designers of Altay failed to foresee the 'non-engineering' issues & hurdles related to this project. The over emphasis on one vendor/supplier has created a potential weak spot in the program which other can exploit

OTH if the issue is only related to transmission then we faced the same issue in our Al-Khalid program so to resolve it we use French ESM-500 (same as Leclerc tank) rather using Ukrainian transmission with their engine

@Dazzler I would like to known your comment which might helpful ...

Both, engine and transmission is too wide for Altays engine bay. It's not a design issue, transmission has to have certain tolerances so that the transmission can link up to the final drives and brakes. Too much length between the final drive and transmission with an engine that can output 4000nm of torque propelling 65ton , you are asking for a failure point.
Planning is at fault here, Tumosan and SSM are at fault for not pre-determing the political climate of Austria/Europe. Hopefully they'll learn from this and a ministry will be set-up that evaluates potential technological assistance partners in Defence Industry.

 

[Mr.Department]

I am not getting is there an issue with purposed Ukrainian engine in terms of dimensions or with Transmission ....

If its related to the dimensions of engine or space available for engine bay then it means Altay was specifically designed for MTU engine & its engine bay would not except any other engine, on a side note if you people don't take offence I would like to say it reflect the bad planing & to an extent design as well, the planners & designers of Altay failed to foresee the 'non-engineering' issues & hurdles related to this project. The over emphasis on one vendor/supplier has created a potential weak spot in the program which other can exploit

OTH if the issue is only related to transmission then we faced the same issue in our Al-Khalid program so to resolve it we use French ESM-500 (same as Leclerc tank) rather using Ukrainian transmission with their engine

@Dazzler I would like to known your comment which might helpful ...

At the end of the day we have to take Korean technical assistance from Korea and DOSAN engine / transmission.

 

[HRK]

At the end of the day we have to take Korean technical assistance from Korea and DOSAN engine / transmission.

all is well if it ends well ....