Air Forces Monthly - summary of updates to JF-17

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Correct me if I'm wrong, the Raad ALCM is pre-programmed hence it's fire and forget weapon system.
Once it's launched, the operator has no control over it.
So say if it was programmed to be launched at 20,000 feet to strike a target at 350 Miles range...what happens if the launch platform say counters bad weather or due to other circumstances the weapon can only be launched from 15,000 feet at the same target which is now only at 300 miles distance.

@SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK

Since it's an ALCM the Ra'ad has an air-breathing engine, it's more of a jet and not a rocket-powered missile (like CM-400AKG) or glider (like IREK or H-2/H-4). I may be way off, but the Ra'ad shouldn't lose its range because it was launched at a lower altitude. E.g., it should (theoretically) be able to climb to a higher altitude after launch if that was the intent.

Granted, the Ra'ad could lose its range to other factors, e.g., wind, fuel quality, engine quality, etc. However, if all things are held equal, the Ra'ad should have the qualities of an actual jet-powered aircraft (since it's exactly that) and not the limitations of a rocket or a glider.

 

[SQ8]

Correct me if I'm wrong, the Raad ALCM is pre-programmed hence it's fire and forget weapon system.
Once it's launched, the operator has no control over it.
So say if it was programmed to be launched at 20,000 feet to strike a target at 350 Miles range...what happens if the launch platform say counters bad weather or due to other circumstances the weapon can only be launched from 15,000 feet at the same target which is now only at 300 miles distance.

@SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK

Generally weather and all are part of the planning process but in a case of things changing on the fly the weapon is capable of accepting new waypoints and altitudes.

 

[JamD]

Since it's an ALCM the Ra'ad has an air-breathing engine, it's more of a jet and not a rocket-powered missile (like CM-400AKG) or glider (like IREK or H-2/H-4). I may be way off, but the Ra'ad shouldn't lose its range because it was launched at a lower altitude. E.g., it should (theoretically) be able to climb to a higher altitude after launch if that was the intent.

Granted, the Ra'ad could lose its range to other factors, e.g., wind, fuel quality, engine quality, etc. However, if all things are held equal, the Ra'ad should have the qualities of an actual jet-powered aircraft (since it's exactly that) and not the limitations of a rocket or a glider.

All other things being equal, a Ra'ad launched from 30k feet will be able to fly further than a Ra'ad launched from 10k feet.

 

[imadul]

The new AFM issue has an article on the JF-17 which provides some key interesting details(if written in a bit nationalistic prose given the author is retired PAF).

Key takeaways:

1. Block-III has additional composites to increase load carrying capacity. You can read where by buying the AFM issue

2. Block-III might actually have that fuselage hardpoint for AAM(although I am still not convinced how that will look/work)

3. Range of PL-15 variant offerred to Pakistan exceeds range of JF-17 radar!

4. H2/H4 & Raad integration with Block-III

5. Airborne Simulated adversary trainer - apparently a adversary aircraft can be simulated from into radar and HSD to let pilots practice BVR(and WVR??) in flight without the risk of violating distance safety with a live opponent.. apparently the J-10C has a rudimentary version of this @Deino @Shotgunner51

6. Homegrown integrated EW system for JF called Panjnad

7. RD-93 baseline to speed up induction as RD-93MA still being evaluated.

8. Total losses are 3 single seaters and 1 dual
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Windjammer

For anything else please read the article - will move the thread to JF-17 section soon.

Point 7 is crown jewel.
7. RD-93 baseline to speed up induction as RD-93MA still being evaluated.

Without an engine which gives more T/W atleast 1 or 1.1 is limited in power, maneuverability, total weight carrying capacity, and combat range. With RD-93MA, JFT Block III shall compete with any lightweight single engine multirole fighter in the market even beat it.

This is also the reason, IMO, that PAF is acquiring J-10C while JFT Block III are about to be delivered. It is underpowered.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

All other things being equal, a Ra'ad launched from 30k feet will be able to fly further than a Ra'ad launched from 10k feet.

 

[SQ8]

Yes, that is what I suspect has happened.



Total surprise. I talked to a bunch of guys inside places and they had no idea about this. So either this is super secret or it's an off-the-cuff remark by some official taken as existence of a program.

I would bet its the latter. I had pointed out in another thread - just because a discussion has occurred on the sidelines or even a MoU exists doesn’t mean a budget allocated program exists with dedicated people working on it.

Unfortunately,when reported to public information sources it gets interpreted as if a full fledged development program is underway.

 

[KaiserX]

Since it's an ALCM the Ra'ad has an air-breathing engine, it's more of a jet and not a rocket-powered missile (like CM-400AKG) or glider (like IREK or H-2/H-4). I may be way off, but the Ra'ad shouldn't lose its range because it was launched at a lower altitude. E.g., it should (theoretically) be able to climb to a higher altitude after launch if that was the intent.

Granted, the Ra'ad could lose its range to other factors, e.g., wind, fuel quality, engine quality, etc. However, if all things are held equal, the Ra'ad should have the qualities of an actual jet-powered aircraft (since it's exactly that) and not the limitations of a rocket or a glider.

300km range would be based off a given speed (of the jet) and the height at which the jet launches the Raad. If a Raad is launched at lower speeds/lower altitudes then it will simply burn more fuel. Common sense. Range will def be impacted and decreased. Also drag is lowered with thinner air, thicker air closer to the ground will create more drag thus further decreasing the range MR expert.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

No one is going to talk about Ra'ad integration on JF-17 ? I mean seriously ? Ra'ad is a bloody ALCM with conventional and nuclear warhead, give it some respect.

Done and dusted, long time ago.

 

[maverick1977]

How can Thunder launch PL-15 beyond its radar range ? Are we practicing the launch using AWACs radars ?

its has a active homing radar in it too to mu understanding and can track target at a certain distance.. citation needed

 

[PakShaheen79]

Please do not reproduce all or any sections of the article without permission from Key Publishing. Be it one page or snippets it is copyright violation and apart from being unethical will get PDF in trouble.

This report is little strange.

Apart from red underlined part,,,, Here it is mentioned that KLJ-A liquid cooled while 2 pages forward and we have this pic with this caption.



So what's going on ... how accurate other things mentioned in the report can be?

 

[aliyusuf]

It was air cooled according to previous statements and brochures. Liquid cooled means more TRMs and more powerful radar right..?

This could also mean a greater detection range due to better heat management resulting in a higher operating power range.

 

[kursed]

Unfortunately, it's still not possible with the current technology. To launch and guide an AAM, one needs a true fire control radar. AWACs just works in either broadcast mode initially or more fluid tactical control in advanced stages of an air battle. Either by voice or data link, it provides general target information to a fighter formation. Rest everything has to be done by the airborne FCR on the jets. Aerial CEC has been displayed in a few cases by fighters shooting IR shots like MICA heaters. Also, fighter radars have longer or max ranges in search mode. Tracking/missile guidance range is almost half. So a 100 NM range sensor would most likely provide launch support up to 50-60NM.
Naval CEC is something else. AEGIS-based ship-borne radars are dedicated systems with fire control capabilities.

Thank you for the explanation, it was getting tiring reading how AEW&C aircraft guide missiles. =)

 

[Talon]

The H-2/H-4 have the same design issues as the original Ra'ad (big horizontal stabilizers). I wonder if the bit about adding H-2/H-4 to JF-17 is actually a hint that we're getting the Denel Raptor-III (as that would fit). Basically, use Ra'ad II and Raptor-III ("H-6?")

Yes

Fighter pilots operate in many ways similar to snipers ie range means nothing if target acquisition is not there.

The kill zone of such a missile is around 100KM. PAF pilots would launch PL15s at closer to such ranges.

AAMs are not always fired to have a kill. Even a Lose TOI can be very effective depending on your objectives.

For example ( this is just an example ) :

An Su-30 is heading to target your helpless old Mirage 3. Now if you fire an AIM-120 on that SU-30 ( TWS mode ? ) then that could/would cause him to go Cold and give time to that Mirage make a run and save himself.

So by supposedly wasting a missile you saved a life and an aircraft.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the Raad ALCM is pre-programmed hence it's fire and forget weapon system.
Once it's launched, the operator has no control over it.
So say if it was programmed to be launched at 20,000 feet to strike a target at 350 Miles range...what happens if the launch platform say counters bad weather or due to other circumstances the weapon can only be launched from 15,000 feet at the same target which is now only at 300 miles distance.

@SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK

Weapon program can usually be changed anytime from aircraft's computer via weapon page so 20k ft can be changed to 15k . Your aircraft computer will automatically calculate and give you Release Cue as per your speed and altitude ( after you lock the target ) .

Don't know about Raad or other powered weapons but guided glide bombs usually require close to Mach 1 speed and 30k angles ( to be fired from a safe yet within kill range ).

For a weapon like Raad, I don't think weather is an issue ( to be released ) as it uses GPS? . If the issue is of the aircraft climbing to 30k during bad weather then it's ( sometimes ) dangerous but quite common ( in case of a war ) . Infact 30k is more safe to fly than to fly at 7k ft when cloud layer is at 8k, you just need to cross that cloud cover.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Thank you for the explanation, it was getting tiring reading how AEW&C aircraft guide missiles. =)

I've tried a clear this point a few times but eventually got tired of repeating myself

 

[kursed]

I've tried a clear this point a few times but eventually got tired of repeating myself

The same here. Now I just chuckle. =)