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Air Force comparison ( Turkey - İsrael - Egypt )

You need to get on page, your informations are dated Pal…Russians arms have always outperformed Israeli arms,Pakistanis , better trained and experienced ,with their MiG 21 created a havoc in the Israelis Air Force, Ariel Sharon brigade was decimated by T55, that he considered inferior to his armada and other example abounds…
Egyptian Airforce is a lot more capable and potent than before, and the fact that she fields different model from different makes didn’t seem to hinder its performance.

My humble contribution to the " dick measuring contest " thread.

In 1966 Israel managed to " acquire " a mig21 , when an Iraqi pilot defected along with his plane. They conducted air to air combats tests with Israel 3 main fighter planes at the time.

The result where - - Only in one model the advantage was to the Mig21 , one was a tie and one was advantage to the Israeli model. ( sorry i don't remember exactly how each model scored.)

The main discovery was that though the mig21 excels at dogfights because of his maneuverability , this advantage is much diminished at high speed where the plane gets much harder to control.

Israeli pilots from there on where advised to try and meet the mig21 at high speed to gain the advantage .


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MiG-21, the subject of Operation Diamond, at the Israeli Air Force Museum in Hatzerim


 
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Well both these countries are obviously armed to the teeth.
 
No idea where from u take these fairy tales. In fact even in 1973 war which was most successful for the Arabs the casualty ratio was many times in favor of Israel.

102 Israeli jets lost vs. 350+ Arab jets lost.
470 Israeli tanks destroyed vs 2300 Arab tanks destroyed.

Later with the arrival of UAVs situation became much worse.
Mossad chief in Yom Kippur War said that A week after the war, Israel had lost a third of its Air Force and a third of its tanks
https://www.ynetnews.com/magazine/article/BJJBcbL0H

Anyway F*** the numbers ,all sides have claims , you need to care more about the result . Israelis were shocked ,they lost some thousands of soldiers in few weeks , after war your intelligence guys and generals were kicked out of service , Prime Minister Golda Meir was forced to resign after huge demonstrations .Although the unlimited US arms support ,IDF couldn't return the situation to 5/oct/1973 .The small Israel can't handle long war with Egypt .

At the end IDF had withdrawn from 60000 km² which made Israel lose it's strategic depth ,now if any small boy fired a bullet , half of Israel will shut down ,hurry to undergound ,that's not a country but this happen when you steal others lands .

IDF is putting Israelis inside metal cages to throw them out of Sinai . :victory1:

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If you have sources apart from your Usraeli ones bring them here.. because we have provided plenty of sources that contradict your claims in many different threads.. otherwise just leave it there and keep believing yourself..
U did not provide any source at all.

Mossad chief in Yom Kippur War said that A week after the war, Israel had lost a third of its Air Force and a third of its tanks
https://www.ynetnews.com/magazine/article/BJJBcbL0H

Anyway F*** the numbers ,all sides have claims , you need to care more about the result . Israelis were shocked ,they lost some thousands of soldiers in few weeks , after war your intelligence guys and generals were kicked out of service , Prime Minister Golda Meir was forced to resign after huge demonstrations .Although the unlimited US arms support ,IDF couldn't return the situation to 5/oct/1973 .The small Israel can't handle long war with Egypt .

At the end IDF had withdrawn from 60000 km² which made Israel lose it's strategic depth ,now if any small boy fired a bullet , half of Israel will shut down ,hurry to undergound ,that's not a country but this happen when you steal others lands .

IDF is putting Israelis inside metal cages to throw them out of Sinai . :victory1:

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USSR aid to Arabs was much larger.
USSR and US saved 3rd army from total destruction.
 
USSR aid to Arabs was much larger.
USSR and US saved 3rd army from total destruction.

The unsuccessfully fate of IDF attacks on DIV 16 &Suez and Ismailya, point to the expected scenario that would have resulted if IDF tried to attack the 3rd Army after the 24th of OCT.

IDF generals were afraid to attack the 3rd army and accepted the ceasefire and withdrawal 35km to the east after that , any other excuses are pathetic .

Most if not all USSR aid went to Syria because Syrian front was in a critical situation on the first few days . USSR aid came to Egypt after ceasefire . Focusing on 3rd army is an Israeli propaganda , 3rd army had 250 tank on that time ,Egypt in two days only on 8,9 October destroyed 300 Israeli tank but it wasn't the end of the war .

Don't take US as an excuse , US saved the whole Israeli army from destruction , by Operation Nickel Grass to replace all the destroyed tanks,aircrafts ,giving Tow missiles ,ECMs ,howtizers ,munitions ..etc

But till the last day Israelis couldn't destroy EAF which considered as a double failure because Egypt didn't receive that huge supplies .

scree102.jpg



IDF on the west was in a danger to be destroyed .

IDF propganda which is presenting the 3rd army seige " it was partial seige" as the only outcome of the war ,while ignoring the forced existence of around 150,000 to 200,000 Egyptian troops in IDF pre-war positions, is pathetic.

Egyptians on east canal 1/Nov/1973 hold their lands .


The Egyptian GC was preparing to cut the passage from the reinforced 2nd army positions in the north with a simultanous local attacks on IDF divisions west of the Canal. You should not limit the new operations to the 3rd army front. By trying to demolish the 3rd army, IDF should prove that it can hold long defensive positions against a determined well organized multi node Egyptian attack on Canal west front. Only, the opposite was proved on the 6th of October.

IDF failed to maintain its Counter attack War objects till the 22nd of Oct. Egypt & Israel agreed to Ceasefire & UN decision 338 on that day. IDF violated the ceasefire & maintained a ground surround of the third army on the 24th of Oct. Yet, this try for reversing the War outcome was blocked by Egypt threat that unless IDF retreat to th 22nd lines, the Egyptian Army will resume its operations & open an access to the 3rd army. Fearing from the erupt further military actions, Israel agreed to hold military discussions with the Egyptians to discuss the issue of the 22nd lines .

Quote from David Nicolle and Tom Cooper in their book “arab mig-19 and mig-21 units in combat

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The Egyptian Army has fulfilled his War targets. IDF never returned to its 5th of Oct positions which were conquered by the Egyptian Army. The War started with the 50% of Canal shores under direct occupation by IDF. After 18 days of fighting, 75% of Suez Canal shores became under the Egyptian Army direct control. The trapped third army divisions are far counterbalanced by the threatened positions of IDF 3 armored divisions west of the Canal. An attrition war was started from the 30th of Nov till the 18th of Jan 1974. IDF retreat was obligatory & took place on the 18th of Jan till the passes lines.

Missouri ridge remained a problem. From that position, the Egyptians could fire, and direct fire, on the Israelis in the corridor. Sharon's remaining forces on the east bank were unable to take the position, and settled in about one kilometer north of Chinese Farm

The fact is that the IDF was under extrieme pressure from the Egyptian army on both Canal fronts. From the 24th of October till the 18th of January, an attrition war was imposed where more than 200 IDF troops were killed & further equipment destroyed, more that 11 aircrafts downed .
The agreement was reached on the 11/Nov reflects the real IDF critical situation on the west which forced it to withdraw without maintaining any Political return,complete failure .

The 18th of Jan first disengagement agreement reflects the Egyptian army victory. Here IDF withdraw from his threatened positions west of Canal to 35 kms east without any political return.

Even 120 Israel aircraft can't beat only 62 Egyptian Mig-21 :victory1:


I would thank a member "ahmedfire" in another froum where i read his informative posts about YK war .
 
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It has AESA radars on it's leading edge wing flaps that have close to 200km range and you will see them on the EAF jets once they start showing pics.

L-band is AESA. All those other links will say the same thing. "Like AESA"? lol. Whatever that means. This hasn't really been well known about the Su-35S until recently and the Su-57 will also have the same set up while probably a more improved version.

Plenty of other links at the bottom of that post to support that.


Yes it is an 8 brick L band AESA of very little battle field utility. Not all AESA’s are created equal and the Russian ones are less equal than most. Embedding the array on the leading edge with no provision for cooling is going to significantly degrade performance in the upper transonic / supersonic regime due to a combination of operating heat of the array combined with parasitic heating of the lead edge due to drag and the desert heat of Egypt. Plus, its utility is limited to detection it cannot target track and guide weapons. Frankly more emitters makes you more vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles. With the high pilot workload common to Russian platforms remembering to maintain EMCON on the wing array is going get more than a few pilots in trouble.
 
Egyptian RAFALE vs Turkish F-16C in BVR combat



Egyptian RAFALE with 60km MICA-EM
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vs


Turkish F-16C with 120km AIM-120C7
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The New Egyptian RAFALES will be the F3R version armed with the Meteor BVR air-to-air missiles between 2024 and 2026
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Is Turkish Industry developing something to match or exceed the capabilities of the Meteor?

Especially considering Greece is about to receive the Rafale.
 
U did not provide any source at all.


USSR aid to Arabs was much larger.
USSR and US saved 3rd army from total destruction.
Really? After Ariel Sharon tank brigade was destroyed along with the loss of over 700 troops, the best of the Israeli army, things on the terrain changed dramatically.The 3rd was surrounded, but not in a danger of being annihilated, due to the impossibility of Israelis troops to maintain the blockade..that what forced Israel to sit with Egypt in km 101 to negotiate the truce..Otherwise, Israel would not have halted the war…Egyptian air defenses had decimated the Israeli air fire even American lost a C5 and one was damaged….Please don’t tell us that your Air Force was superior..It has been over half century since that war, you can at least tell the truth, the same goes for Egyptians Pdf’s
 
Yes it's the same one that is in the Su-35S with slightly moderate upgrades. Again, something I've already mentioned in my previous posts to you but you keep dancing around it. Stop it ba2a!



IFF interrogator is a completely separate item! How many times do you want to go around in this silly circle?



Why? We've operated different jets from 3 countries for decades and had no issues except the F-7s were considered widow makers. But this "logistical nightmare" crap is just a sorry excuse. If you look at how quickly the EAF absorbed the Rafale into the air force, that alone should give you an indication there is nothing that can't be dealt with. EAF is spectacular with maintenance and spare parts and dedicate a whole special training and operations for those. Nothing to worry about look at this pic from 1985! F-6, Mirage V, F-4, F-16, MiG-21 and there is a trailing MiG-17 that is out of the pic that was flying in this formation. The new jets are even easier to maintain because of how advanced they are.

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LOL "Disarray" over $100 million?! You've got to be kidding me! We're purchasing $35+ billion in military equipment in the last 7 years and you want to tell me Egypt went into disarray over a lousy $100 million? lol. And yes, Egypt is NO LONGER bowing to US pressures like this CAATSA over the 30 Su-35SE's. There's still a lengthy process of finalizing testing and then training all the EAF pilots and setting up logistics. That's happening now and most sources claim there are already at least 5 in Egypt. You'll see. One thing for sure is they won't flaunt them and rub them in the US' face, but they will definitely be there soon enough.

Besides, again, if there is ever anything as that craziness you're talking about, the deal would've been to replace the Su-35s with F-15s and not Rafales. So there goes that whole wishful fantasy out the door on fire and smoking in a crash and burn. EAF wants a heavy fighter which it has never had and this is very important to not only its overall modernization plan, but an entire Russian network between the Su-35s, MiG-35s, the new rapid data sharing and large radars and command and control systems as well as S-300VM. @The SC opened a great thread about that whole plan they've been working on. Most who aren't following the details closely think it's just a mishmash of stuff like the previous post up there. But this is a whole new administration that has planned this entire new military structure down to the last detail.



Oh my goodness holy crap someone slap me across the face! Did Ceylal actually compliment the EAF? Yan7ar abiad we melahwis! loool
The Egyptian contract for the Su35 was cancelled due to the US pressure and fear of sanctions…It doesn’t take that much money to send Egypt in disarray…
Certainly the recent acquisitions was a definite improvement, it doesn’t translate that Egypt will upstage Israel…That is practically impossible…Sorry, but I don’t see it!
No idea where from u take these fairy tales. In fact even in 1973 war which was most successful for the Arabs the casualty ratio was many times in favor of Israel.

102 Israeli jets lost vs. 350+ Arab jets lost.
470 Israeli tanks destroyed vs 2300 Arab tanks destroyed.

Later with the arrival of UAVs situation became much worse.
Back at you…You are as delusional as the Egyptian PDF’s
 
Yes it is an 8 brick L band AESA of very little battle field utility. Not all AESA’s are created equal and the Russian ones are less equal than most. Embedding the array on the leading edge with no provision for cooling is going to significantly degrade performance in the upper transonic / supersonic regime due to a combination of operating heat of the array combined with parasitic heating of the lead edge due to drag and the desert heat of Egypt. Plus, its utility is limited to detection it cannot target track and guide weapons. Frankly more emitters makes you more vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles. With the high pilot workload common to Russian platforms remembering to maintain EMCON on the wing array is going get more than a few pilots in trouble.
The current Tikhomirov NIIP L-band AESA design does not appear to use a liquid cooling loop, given the absence of plumbing, and appears to employ conduction cooling to the airframe metal structure instead.

After reading the article again, it's important to point out that this L Band AESA is in fact a secondary search radar (SSR). This means that even if it has some shortcomings, it is not meant to operate alone, and should complement and enhance the primary radar system in the nose of the aircraft..

From the paper Abstract:
"The design has clear potential to provide a genuine “shared multifunction aperture” with applications including:

1. Search, track and missile midcourse guidance against low signature aircraft.
2. Identification Friend Foe / Secondary Surveillance Radar.

This is nothing less than the “shared multifunction aperture” model now very popular in the design of Western X-band fighter radars, examples including the Raytheon APG-79 and NG APG-81."

The X-band modules are in the nose cone radar and the L-band modules are in the leading edge flaps. These are physically different modules in different locations. So how will there be range loss in the X-band spectrum?

and they can add another L-band array on the leading edge vertical stabilizer which will give a another 2-D radar with a vertical azimuth. This latter solution will combine the horizontal and vertical scan azimuths of both L-band arrays to give a 3-D presentation and therefore height. Some early Soviet era air search/tracking radars worked in much the same way.

Apperantly, the NPP Pulsar, the manufacturer of the TR modules and transistors employed in the modules, have made some most interesting disclosures which are very helpful in assessing performance:

1. TR module frequency band coverage between 1.0 and 1.5 GHz.
2. TR module volumetric power density of 2 kiloWatts/litre.
3. TR module nominal power rating of 200 Watts per TR channel, for a total of 2.4 kiloWatts per array, and 4.8 kiloWatts for a two array installation.

However, even if the vertical azimuth is +/- 10 degrees, this should be sufficient for long range search. Also, I do not see any problem with the small overlap. Keep in mind that:
1) this is a secondary search radar which should feed data to the main radar for tracking
2) the pilot can maneuver the aircraft to point at the target. This radar does not need to determine target altitude, the main radar with do that.

NIIP-L-Band-AESA-Growth.png


The Tikhomirov NIIP L-band AESA has considerable growth potential by virtue of the large size of the Flanker airframe, permitting additional antenna elements, cooling and power.

Growth options include:
  1. Increasing the power rating of the existing TR modules, retaining conduction cooling.
  2. Further increasing the power rating of the TR modules and introducing liquid cooling.
  3. Improvements to antenna element design to increase element gain.
  4. Extending the arrays further along the wings, to add an additional one or two subarrays.
  5. Addition of receiver arrays in the leading edge of the vertical tails to provide dual plane monopulse precision angle tracking capability for fire control purposes.
For instance, increasing the array size to 16 elements improves power-aperture product for the existing design by almost 80%, by virtue of additional gain and transmit power. The use of more powerful TR modules provides for further improvements. The practical limit will be the available leading edge flap volume as the design progressively tapers toward the wingtips, and system constrains on liquid cooling capacity.
 
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Yes it is an 8 brick L band AESA of very little battle field utility.

Oh I beg to differ quite a bit. To say they went through all of that engineering and application to such a feature that it would be of little battle field utility is surprising to hear from you, dbc.

Also, the whole point of the previous "back & forth" was whether it was an AESA or not, and not it's capabilities which we can certainly get into further, as long as we don't get in trouble for off-topic discussion. My dear brother @The SC has quoted quite a bit of relative information and it is like a secondary radar, but more importantly is it allows the pilot to shut down the IRBIS-E main radar and now operate the wing radar which doesn't give the enemy any source signals.

Here's why when you say of little battlefield utility is surprising is because the ERBIS-E at full power is using 20kW beam strength to scan frontal and up to a certain degree of azimuth to each side (I forget how far but it's quite a bit with the ERBIS-E), that's going to give up location of aircraft to the enemy. Instead, the pilot can shut down the main radar and use these wing mounted AESA radar elements to scan rapidly without needing enormous power levels in a frequency most enemy aircraft can't even detect. This is not an item of little battlefield utility, my friend. Quite the contrary, I would say.

Not all AESA’s are created equal and the Russian ones are less equal than most.

Of course, because it's Russian, right? :-) That's a bit unfair since Russian radar technology has been quite effective and not only that, they're rapidly developing and understanding other ways to counter western technology. See, people think of the US and what it does as the standard bearer and that's fine in many cases. But to not research and dismiss any other source working in "other" ways to counter that technology is no reason to dismiss it as inferior. That's the huge problem many here have. Just because one side does it a certain way, doesn't mean the other has to follow suit. The Russian methodology has been to counter said western tools and methods in their own ways, and this is one of the prime examples.

Embedding the array on the leading edge with no provision for cooling is going to significantly degrade performance in the upper transonic / supersonic regime due to a combination of operating heat of the array combined with parasitic heating of the lead edge due to drag and the desert heat of Egypt.

So it's not an IR system (which I just found out about BTW) and so it can operate in hot climates easily. Also, while there is friction heat generated in transonic and supersonic regimes, there's also cooling outlets to use airflow to cool the unit. It's not a one way road by any means.

Also, the use of such a specific item is probably hardly during any transonic or supersonic vectoring. Given the "probable" range of that L-band radar, the aircraft will not be using it while flying straight to it's potential enemy at mach 1.6 IMO. I could be wrong, there and it's perfectly fine. But, my bet is that it's used as the aircraft is flying solo or with a group with a heading towards unknown elements and speed is moderate for searching to then switch to the main radar.

Plus, its utility is limited to detection it cannot target track and guide weapons. Frankly more emitters makes you more vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles. With the high pilot workload common to Russian platforms remembering to maintain EMCON on the wing array is going get more than a few pilots in trouble.

I think there's a bit of information missing there. A main reason why the Su-35S has been turned from a 2-seater to a single seat aircraft is that much of the functions and workloads that used to belong to the backs-seater have been automated. A lot of the workload has been reduced and made much easier for a single pilot. Don't forget, even the F-22 & F-35 have similar technology on their wings and H-stabs, mostly as IFF antennas etc. So the same principle applies as far as automation of said workload.

Remember, the use of these L-band AESA radars are usually performed on their own, and not in tandem with the main IRBIS-E radar.
 
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Really? After Ariel Sharon tank brigade was destroyed along with the loss of over 700 troops, the best of the Israeli army, things on the terrain changed dramatically.
Sharon was commanding division not brigade. That shows your level of "knowledge".

The 3rd was surrounded, but not in a danger of being annihilated, due to the impossibility of Israelis troops to maintain the blockade..
Here quote of Shazly:

"25 Oct 1100 hours: A meeting of the Armed Forces Supreme Council, the first since the outbreak of war. ...The main topic was, of course, how to open the road to Third Army. But though everyone spoke with passion, nobody could come up with a realistic plan. "

You fail again.
 
The unsuccessfully fate of IDF attacks on DIV 16 &Suez and Ismailya, point to the expected scenario that would have resulted if IDF tried to attack the 3rd Army after the 24th of OCT.

IDF generals were afraid to attack the 3rd army and accepted the ceasefire and withdrawal 35km to the east after that , any other excuses are pathetic .

Most if not all USSR aid went to Syria because Syrian front was in a critical situation on the first few days . USSR aid came to Egypt after ceasefire . Focusing on 3rd army is an Israeli propaganda , 3rd army had 250 tank on that time ,Egypt in two days only on 8,9 October destroyed 300 Israeli tank but it wasn't the end of the war .

Don't take US as an excuse , US saved the whole Israeli army from destruction , by Operation Nickel Grass to replace all the destroyed tanks,aircrafts ,giving Tow missiles ,ECMs ,howtizers ,munitions ..etc

But till the last day Israelis couldn't destroy EAF which considered as a double failure because Egypt didn't receive that huge supplies .

View attachment 752708


IDF on the west was in a danger to be destroyed .

IDF propganda which is presenting the 3rd army seige " it was partial seige" as the only outcome of the war ,while ignoring the forced existence of around 150,000 to 200,000 Egyptian troops in IDF pre-war positions, is pathetic.

Egyptians on east canal 1/Nov/1973 hold their lands .


The Egyptian GC was preparing to cut the passage from the reinforced 2nd army positions in the north with a simultanous local attacks on IDF divisions west of the Canal. You should not limit the new operations to the 3rd army front. By trying to demolish the 3rd army, IDF should prove that it can hold long defensive positions against a determined well organized multi node Egyptian attack on Canal west front. Only, the opposite was proved on the 6th of October.

IDF failed to maintain its Counter attack War objects till the 22nd of Oct. Egypt & Israel agreed to Ceasefire & UN decision 338 on that day. IDF violated the ceasefire & maintained a ground surround of the third army on the 24th of Oct. Yet, this try for reversing the War outcome was blocked by Egypt threat that unless IDF retreat to th 22nd lines, the Egyptian Army will resume its operations & open an access to the 3rd army. Fearing from the erupt further military actions, Israel agreed to hold military discussions with the Egyptians to discuss the issue of the 22nd lines .

Quote from David Nicolle and Tom Cooper in their book “arab mig-19 and mig-21 units in combat

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The Egyptian Army has fulfilled his War targets. IDF never returned to its 5th of Oct positions which were conquered by the Egyptian Army. The War started with the 50% of Canal shores under direct occupation by IDF. After 18 days of fighting, 75% of Suez Canal shores became under the Egyptian Army direct control. The trapped third army divisions are far counterbalanced by the threatened positions of IDF 3 armored divisions west of the Canal. An attrition war was started from the 30th of Nov till the 18th of Jan 1974. IDF retreat was obligatory & took place on the 18th of Jan till the passes lines.

Missouri ridge remained a problem. From that position, the Egyptians could fire, and direct fire, on the Israelis in the corridor. Sharon's remaining forces on the east bank were unable to take the position, and settled in about one kilometer north of Chinese Farm

The fact is that the IDF was under extrieme pressure from the Egyptian army on both Canal fronts. From the 24th of October till the 18th of January, an attrition war was imposed where more than 200 IDF troops were killed & further equipment destroyed, more that 11 aircrafts downed .
The agreement was reached on the 11/Nov reflects the real IDF critical situation on the west which forced it to withdraw without maintaining any Political return,complete failure .

The 18th of Jan first disengagement agreement reflects the Egyptian army victory. Here IDF withdraw from his threatened positions west of Canal to 35 kms east without any political return.

Even 120 Israel aircraft can't beat only 62 Egyptian Mig-21 :victory1:


I would thank a member "ahmedfire" in another froum where i read his informative posts about YK war .
By the end of the war 40,000 men of 3rd army were in he middle of the desert
1) Without any supplies.
2) Without any air defence.

They were totally doomed. The only thing that saved them was cease fire imposed by super powers.
 
My dear brother @The SC has quoted quite a bit of relative information and it is like a secondary radar, but more importantly is it allows the pilot to shut down the IRBIS-E main radar and now operate the wing radar which doesn't give the enemy any source signals.

No its actively emits in the L band it isn't a passive receiver. Anything that emits can be detected.
Russian airborne radar and avionics in general is terrible, they make decent ground / ship based systems when unrestricted by volume, power and cooling. From the same source quoted by SC the side lobe performance of the horizontal eight element layout is poor. Poor side lobe performance translates to poor resolution, peak power performance and jam resistance.

Did you know the russian mission computer on the Indian Sukhoi's were so bad that the Indians replaced it with one made in India that runs on a COTS 1990 era I486 chip?

Russians make great jets for air shows don't exaggerate Russian capabilities just because Egypt was foolish enough to purchase Russian birds.
 
By the end of the war 40,000 men of 3rd army were in he middle of the desert
1) Without any supplies.
2) Without any air defence.

They were totally doomed. The only thing that saved them was cease fire imposed by super powers.

Israel's failure to win and leaving 60000 km² forever is pathetic . Egypt already offered peace talks before the war but Israel refused it so the military action was the Egyptian tool to enforce Israel to negotiate ,Egypt fully succeeded on that .

During ceasefire and from 31/Oct to 18/Jan Egyptian army has killed 180 Israeli soldier , downed 11 aircraft , 41 tank and armored vehicle and 36 engineering vehicle .this is the army you think it was disappeared .

That exactly what would happen to your three divisions if there was no final agreement ,that's why Israeli soldiers on the west were so happy that a deal was signed , they went out from certain death ,they even raised the photo of Egyptian president as below .:haha::haha:

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Colonel Trevor Dupuy and newsweek reporter Drew Middleton said the opposite of yours .

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CIA report

Arab states in 1973 Yom Kippur War - Page 3 Screen83

Arab states in 1973 Yom Kippur War - Page 3 Screen84


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Egypt Navy completely closed the oil supplies that coming to Israel from Iran that time by closing Bab-El Mandab at red sea , to the end of the war Israel can't open it ,that's a seige that was proven by Egypt .

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The 3rd army which had only 250 tank on that area had supplies from Suez and they had water from Moses Springs , on the same time Egypt was preparing 800 tank from Algeria ,Libya, Yugoslavia and USSR and that is a double the IDF forces on the west , Egypt was preparing to completely destroy IDF three armored divisions .

Egypt can send millions of men , even if you can kill 40000 not an issue but your three divisions would be sent to hell .

The Israeli's 3 diviions had 300 km supplies route and can't secure it , Egyptian forces was prepring to cut (at Shamel plan) the only 7:10 km width gap where the IDF get supplies from it and Egyptians prepared double the force of IDF and were ready for that . Israelis in our land , we have double of their forces ,Israelis forces were under Egyptian artillery range and being shelled , SAM coverage became active so this was perfect for the Egyptians to do the final attack to completely finish the IDF forces.

IAF has tried to bomb 3rd army for about one week without any benefit because that army had AD already .

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The Israeli military position became weak for different reasons, "One, Israel now had a large force (about six or seven brigades) in a very limited area of land, surrounded from all sides either by natural or man-made barriers, or by the Egyptian forces. This put it in a weak position. Moreover, there were the difficulties in supplying this force, in evacuating it, in the lengthy communication lines, and in the daily attrition in men and equipment. Two, to protect these troops, the Israeli command had to allocate other forces (four or five brigades) to defend the entrances to the breach at the Deversoir. Three, to immobilize the Egyptian bridgeheads in Sinai the Israeli command had to allocate ten brigades to face the Second and Third army bridgeheads. In addition, it became necessary to keep the strategic reserves at their maximum state of alert. Thus, Israel was obliged to keep its armed force-and consequently the country-mobilized for a long period, at least until the war came to an end, because the ceasefire did not signal the end of the war. For those reasons and according to IDF minister Dayan, "It was therefore thought that Israel would withdraw from the west bank, since she was most sensitive on the subject of soldier's lives." The Egyptian forces didn't pull to the west and held onto their positions east of the canal controlling both shores of the Suez Canal. None of the Canal's main cities were occupied by Israel.

Israel can't handly long war with Egypt , in one operation Egyptian navy has killed 50 Israeli marine , you guys has no ability to bear such attacks .



IDF is throwing Israelis out of Sinani ,defeat on eyes .

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