A Russian colonel reveals to RT what will happen to Israel if Egypt gets the Su-57 fighter

[dani191]

do we have any war soon with egypt?

 

[Frogman]

do we have any war soon with egypt?

Tomorrow. Mobilise your reserves.

close to operational yet

People talking about 2025-30 for it to be in Egyptian service and here's me doubting if it will even be operational while in Russian service by then.

 

[dani191]

This is getting really frustrating with the U.S blocking every type of decent weapon procurement for our F-16 fleet.

Why didn't we join the Afghanistan and Iraqi Invasions? We would probably be getting boatloads of weapons from the U.S If we had.

develop yourself dony be depend in others with 100 milion people

The Israelis make good subsystems. They obviously can't build something like the Su-57.

And as I have already said, the Su-57 is more competitive than the F-22, so why compare to the F-35?

russia offer us in 2009 to take part in development that we putt all our subsystems su 57 better than f 22 ? joke

 

[randomradio]

What about it? His beef is that despite how good the F-35 is, they still need the EW capabilities of the Growler and they still need the A2A capabilities of the F-22. That doesn't solve the disparity between the Su-57 and the F-35. In essence, the comparison would be that the Su-57 is closer to the F-22 and we still don't really know that and that is a very tough argument to make, but given that status for example, the F-35 has many advantage over the F-22 so the same would apply to the Su-57.

No, he argues that Growlers are not necessary with the F-35 in the picture.

I was referring to this part:
“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.

This is the most important bit--
In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

So we know the F-35 has better avionics. And Hostage happily says that the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22. And the F-35 has limited offensive EW capability which the F-22 is getting only now. But they need 8 F-35s to do the job of 2 F-22s. That translates into the F-22's superior performance playing a massive part to ensure its own superiority.

The PAK FA has the same performance advantage.

Are you saying all the Red Flag results are worthless? Or is it the American SIGINT library that isn't a good enough indication?

The Americans are yet to allow foreign air forces to fly against their 5th gen aircraft.

Ok so the US has basically undermined the importance of EW with respect to the F-35, but in reality it will be operating the AN/ASQ-239 ECMS system and the Growler is not going anywhere soon AND, it's not like EW is something strange to the US. Think of what the F-111's operational duties were for decades and has essentially been transferred to the Growler.

The Growler does not give an advantage to the F-35. It can only protect itself and other 4th gen aircraft. The F-35 can protect itself better than the Growler can.

But here's the more pertinent issue in this whole Egypt/Israel thingamajig and that is, if the Israelis are so good with their subsystems, and have excelled in EW on their own since the early 1980's AND, are installing their own subsystems on their F-35's, how is it possible that the Egyptian Su-57 could be any better than the Israeli F-35?

Having EW and being able to kill something are two different aspects. Even if you don't consider the PAK FA to have equivalent stealth and better avionics, the PAK FA still has the superior performance.

And another question to your point about the super capabilities of the Rafale: according to you, the Rafale also exceeds the performance of the F-35, specifically with active measures which you're also saying will be coming in the Su-57. That said, are you suggesting that the Egyptian Rafales are also better than the Israeli F-35s, considering SPECTRA and all other active measures on that aircaft?

I can speak for the French/Indian Rafales, I cannot speak for Egyptian Rafales. As long as the French have given you access to the same capabilities, it should do well.

As long as full active cancellation capabilities exist on Rafale, the Rafale will perform better in the air superiority role than the F-35 because it's an air superiority design, and it has better weapons right now. But due to the lack of internal bays on Rafale, the F-35 has some advantage when carrying some A2G loads. For example, the F-35 can fly supersonic with 2 1000Kg bombs, while the Rafale can't.

The datalink and HMDS on F-35 are better.

Like what?

Variable cycle engines, IRST (dedicated for aerial targets), UV detectors, DIRCM, plasma stealth, active cancellation...

russia offer us in 2009 to take part in development that we putt all our subsystems su 57 better than f 22 ? joke

Russia never offered PAK FA to Israel.

@Gomig-21

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ighter-jet-says-iaf-chief-b-s-dhanoa-5082304/
“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa told The Indian Express.

So the earlier news was fake. A good hit to the credibility of the author.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Somewhat unrelated to Egypt, but I didn't want to open a new thread. Looks like Su-57 are now in Syria.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-concerned-over-su-57-debut-in-syria-446347/

Israel concerned over Su-57 debut in Syria

• 01 MARCH, 2018
• SOURCE: FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM
• BY: ARIE EGOZI

Russia's surprise deployment of Sukhoi Su-57s to a base inside Syria has positioned its new stealth fighter within the same region of operations as the Israeli air force's Lockheed Martin F-35I.

Video footage appearing to show Su-57s arriving in Syria was confirmed by pictures captured by an Israeli imaging satellite. The new type's deployment marks the peak of Moscow's direct intervention so far in Syria's long-running civil war.

Israeli sources assess that Russia has sent dozens of new weapon systems to Syria, to undergo testing under combat conditions. But the Su-57's arrival – which places two of the world's most advanced stealthy combat aircraft within close proximity – creates a unique situation.

While Israel has not reacted officially to the development, a senior source says there is no doubt that Moscow has sent its newest fighter to the region in order to test it against Western technologies.

In mid-February, the biennial "Juniper Cobra" exercise, which also involves US forces, began in Israel. The three-week activity is aimed at improving the nation's defences against ballistic missile threats, using a scenario where US assets are deployed to provide assistance.

The exercise creates a situation where a large number of advanced radars are looking at the airspace across the region, making the Su-57's arrival of particular interest.

Russia claims to have developed a new radar system that can detect stealth aircraft, but sources suggest that the Sunflower system may lack the fidelity required to support targeting by missiles.

Syrian reports indicate that the Israeli air force is flying over the country on a daily basis using manned and unmanned platforms, and also striking targets. Moscow's new deployment – made two weeks after a border clash during which an Iranian-operated stealth unmanned air vehicle and an Israeli Lockheed F-16 were shot down – means the "hot line" established to deconflict the movements of Russian and Israeli aircraft will become more critical.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The Su-57 is a """5th generation""" scam plane, I wouldn't suggest anyone to get it.

 

[Gomig-21]

So this was before they determined that its official designation was going to be Su-57 and not 50. But what I find interesting in that diagram is the Iranian model. It's quite likely that Iran could be a customer of this aircraft, along with a large batch of Su-30SMs.

BTW, SC, I don't buy any of that radar blockers stuff and especially the intake doors. There is so much to argue against that. We had a huge discussion on that in the PAK-FA vs F-22 thread. Random brought that up but it just doesn't cut the cheese. Compare it to the extensive work the US made in designing and engineering the intake ducting for not only the F-22 but especially the F/A-18 Super Hornet.

Nothing remotely close in the PAK-FA, unfortunately.

Even the F/A-18A has outstanding S-ducting.

You can easily see the S-shaping from the intake position to the fan blades, something that's clearly missing on that assembly photo of the PAK-FA intake and engine nacelle.

I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination (and I never pretend to be,) but from all the available information that has been published to date, it's a critical aspect of RCS reduction and it just doesn't exist on the PAK-FA. And blockers and RAM etc. just seem like band-aides and nothing more, let alone doors of any kind and especially in flight.

No, he argues that Growlers are not necessary with the F-35 in the picture.

Ok, so that only adds to the F-35's lethality.

I was referring to this part:
“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.

This is the most important bit--
In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

So we know the F-35 has better avionics. And Hostage happily says that the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22. And the F-35 has limited offensive EW capability which the F-22 is getting only now. But they need 8 F-35s to do the job of 2 F-22s. That translates into the F-22's superior performance playing a massive part to ensure its own superiority.

Seems contradictory what this guy is saying. Either way, the two are about as lethal as they come. I think we can agree to that, yes? Question is, what's the PAK-FA's role in this mix and here's another twist to the whole Su-57 exporting process: Is Russia going to create some sort of partnership with eventual clients of this aircraft like the US has done with the F-35. Will they be protective of its secrets and tech transfer as the US is with all its aircraft but especially with the F-35 and we know the Russians aren't as stickly as the Americans when it comes to this process. It will be interesting to see that aspect in their exporting of the Su-57.

If the Su-57 is a better performer than the F-35 as you suggest, then the Russians should undoubtedly have strenuous tech transfer clauses in their exporting contracts. Have they done anything of the sort with all the Russian stuff India has bought to date?

The Americans are yet to allow foreign air forces to fly against their 5th gen aircraft.

That's a difficult proposition, though, right? I mean if what we're asking for proof is to actually test the capabilities among allies with different platforms, the chances of anyone agreeing to that is like asking them to go to war to expose their defenses. So what we have to go by is published USAF/USN simulation air battles which have not proven to be wrong in the past.

Also, let's think of the prospect of lying about the capabilities of arguably the most desirable fighter on the market to date. What would be the consequences to not only LM, but to the United States in general if they marketed a fighter of this caliber under false pretenses. The chances of that happening are close to nil, and the US, frankly, has had nothing but a stellar record in this department. We're yet to see anything of the caliber of the F-22 or F-35 from the Russians with regard to the PAK-FA program so you can see why someone would think the general is a bit off in the OP. 2 Raptors vs 10, 12, 15 F-15s and a perfect kill to loss ratio. Very similar results recently with the F-35 and this is in the A2A roll which is not even its strength.

I can speak for the French/Indian Rafales, I cannot speak for Egyptian Rafales. As long as the French have given you access to the same capabilities, it should do well.

As long as full active cancellation capabilities exist on Rafale, the Rafale will perform better in the air superiority role than the F-35 because it's an air superiority design, and it has better weapons right now. But due to the lack of internal bays on Rafale, the F-35 has some advantage when carrying some A2G loads. For example, the F-35 can fly supersonic with 2 1000Kg bombs, while the Rafale can't.

The datalink and HMDS on F-35 are better.

Egyptian Rafales have everything in them with the exception of nukes launching caps and they haven't ordered a helmet with the aircraft. I'm guessing the HMDS is standard and just needs to be connected to whatever helmet is selected via the software. Other than that, it's everything Rafale.

@Gomig-21

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ighter-jet-says-iaf-chief-b-s-dhanoa-5082304/
“We have not officially asked for a briefing on the F-35 nor has any request been made to the Americans,” IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa told The Indian Express.

So the earlier news was fake. A good hit to the credibility of the author.

I think India is way too invested in the PAK-FA at this point and considering its gargantuan investment in the Su-30MKI, it wouldn't make any sense to introduce the F-35 now.

Russia never offered PAK FA to Israel.

I think he was referring to Russia requesting Israeli sub-systems to be installed in the PAK-FA during the initial stages of the program.

He also thinks it's a joke that you would think the Su-57 is better than the Israeli F-35 lol. I find it fascinating how nice and complentary you Indian folks are about the Israelis and they almost never return the favor in kind. Actually, they seem to react quite the opposite! How ungrateful of them, lol. We haven't heard much from the Israelis regarding what the general said.

 

[Zulfiqar1919]

Egypt can't afford to feed its own people. Besides, if Israel wanted they could eradicate Egypt by turning it into a mushroom cloud - just saying.

 

[randomradio]

Seems contradictory what this guy is saying. Either way, the two are about as lethal as they come. I think we can agree to that, yes? Question is, what's the PAK-FA's role in this mix and here's another twist to the whole Su-57 exporting process: Is Russia going to create some sort of partnership with eventual clients of this aircraft like the US has done with the F-35. Will they be protective of its secrets and tech transfer as the US is with all its aircraft but especially with the F-35 and we know the Russians aren't as stickly as the Americans when it comes to this process. It will be interesting to see that aspect in their exporting of the Su-57.

Any so-called "partnership" with Russia is a buyer-seller relationship. With the exception of India, they haven't handed over technology to anyone else.

Iran may be the next country to get ToT for a Su-30SM or a Su-35 line, not sure. But you need to order in the hundreds if you want ToT.

If the Su-57 is a better performer than the F-35 as you suggest, then the Russians should undoubtedly have strenuous tech transfer clauses in their exporting contracts. Have they done anything of the sort with all the Russian stuff India has bought to date?

Yeah. They have their own IP deals for the security of their technology.

That's a difficult proposition, though, right? I mean if what we're asking for proof is to actually test the capabilities among allies with different platforms, the chances of anyone agreeing to that is like asking them to go to war to expose their defenses. So what we have to go by is published USAF/USN simulation air battles which have not proven to be wrong in the past.

So all we can do is take their word, like it is with anybody else.

Also, let's think of the prospect of lying about the capabilities of arguably the most desirable fighter on the market to date. What would be the consequences to not only LM, but to the United States in general if they marketed a fighter of this caliber under false pretenses. The chances of that happening are close to nil, and the US, frankly, has had nothing but a stellar record in this department. We're yet to see anything of the caliber of the F-22 or F-35 from the Russians with regard to the PAK-FA program so you can see why someone would think the general is a bit off in the OP. 2 Raptors vs 10, 12, 15 F-15s and a perfect kill to loss ratio. Very similar results recently with the F-35 and this is in the A2A roll which is not even its strength.

All we have is their word. And their word and their arguments are now being thrown out of the window by their own admission for next gen stuff.

The thing about LM is they can't survive bad publicity from other countries regarding the F-35 due to the numerous attacks on the program at home. They can't admit that the F-35 is still incomplete.

Egyptian Rafales have everything in them with the exception of nukes launching caps and they haven't ordered a helmet with the aircraft. I'm guessing the HMDS is standard and just needs to be connected to whatever helmet is selected via the software. Other than that, it's everything Rafale.

The problem with the Egyptian Rafales is they are F3+ and not the latest F3R.

As for HMDS, there is a new French HMDS coming up. But India and Qatar have chosen an Israeli helmet.

I think India is way too invested in the PAK-FA at this point and considering its gargantuan investment in the Su-30MKI, it wouldn't make any sense to introduce the F-35 now.

We have the room to buy the F-35 and PAK FA. They don't conflict with each other. It's like the US operating the F-22 and F-35. But we are poorer than the US.

I think he was referring to Russia requesting Israeli sub-systems to be installed in the PAK-FA during the initial stages of the program.

No such thing ever happened.

He also thinks it's a joke that you would think the Su-57 is better than the Israeli F-35 lol. I find it fascinating how nice and complentary you Indian folks are about the Israelis and they almost never return the favor in kind. Actually, they seem to react quite the opposite! How ungrateful of them, lol. We haven't heard much from the Israelis regarding what the general said.

To each his own.

 

[The SC]

So this was before they determined that its official designation was going to be Su-57 and not 50. But what I find interesting in that diagram is the Iranian model. It's quite likely that Iran could be a customer of this aircraft, along with a large batch of Su-30SMs.

BTW, SC, I don't buy any of that radar blockers stuff and especially the intake doors. There is so much to argue against that. We had a huge discussion on that in the PAK-FA vs F-22 thread. Random brought that up but it just doesn't cut the cheese. Compare it to the extensive work the US made in designing and engineering the intake ducting for not only the F-22 but especially the F/A-18 Super Hornet.

Nothing remotely close in the PAK-FA, unfortunately.

Even the F/A-18A has outstanding S-ducting.

You can easily see the S-shaping from the intake position to the fan blades, something that's clearly missing on that assembly photo of the PAK-FA intake and engine nacelle.

I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination (and I never pretend to be,) but from all the available information that has been published to date, it's a critical aspect of RCS reduction and it just doesn't exist on the PAK-FA. And blockers and RAM etc. just seem like band-aides and nothing more, let alone doors of any kind and especially in flight.

The Russians were the first to introduce the S-ducts on the Mig-29.. They just prefer more manoeuvrability to the S-ducts limit.. otherwise it wouldn't have been difficult for them to implement it on the SU-57..

 

[dani191]

Egypt can't afford to feed its own people. Besides, if Israel wanted they could eradicate Egypt by turning it into a mushroom cloud - just saying.

egypt dont pay for there weapons

 

[JKangoroo]

What the hell is going on with you people ? In your Dream's egypt will get the su-57 !!!!

 

[SipahSalar]

I have read not a single positive thing about that PAK-FA ever since its inception. Most experts say its not even a 5th generation plane, with capability more or less similar to Su-35.

 

[Amun]

What the hell is going on with you people ? In your Dream's egypt will get the su-57 !!!!

Same things people like you said about Rafale,Mistrals,Fremm, S-300 VM .....etc.
If we want it.....we will get it....just enjoy the show and don’t jump to conclusions....just saying.

Egypt can't afford to feed its own people. Besides, if Israel wanted they could eradicate Egypt by turning it into a mushroom cloud - just saying.

You are so naive....just try to read and learn more ..... good thing you’re banned to get some time to read before writing opinions.

 

[Trango Towers]

The Su-57 is a """5th generation""" scam plane, I wouldn't suggest anyone to get it.

Says a Zionist

Arabs are semetic .... Just FYI.

But Arabs don't cry all day feel sorry for me I am Semitic new