A Russian colonel reveals to RT what will happen to Israel if Egypt gets the Su-57 fighter

[Torch_v2.0]

Arabs are semetic .... Just FYI.

I know ,But
Anti-Semitism is especially for Jzzooosss

 

[randomradio]

One thing I always strive to be, is objective. No matter who, how, when or what, I never try to let patriotism or nationalism or any of that baloney pony get in the way of what I think is really the truth based on evidences I've seen. That being said, I simply cannot agree that any version of the PAK-FA in its current physical makeup will be anything close to the F-35. Regardless of if it's a Dutch one, a US one or an Israeli one.

The shaping and coating in the F-35 is far superior to what we've seen so far in the PAK-FA, by miles, my friend. We've talked about this on the other thread and listen, I'm not the only one in on this side of the debate. There are truck-loads of experts and enthusiast who share the same thought.

Then what about General Hostage? He says that the F-35 has superior stealth compared to the F-22. But the F-22 is still superior to the F-35.

https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06...he-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/3/

but it won't be anywhere near the level of F-35. Maneuverability-wise, it should CRUSH the F-35. Stealth-wise? Nope.

We are yet to see what the export version will be like. The same thing can be said about FGFA and PAK FA Stage 2 also.

I think the Colonel, with all respect, if he really thinks that's the case, give us more than just a claim. The bird itself needs to show performances to make believers out of all us skeptics.

I agree. Proof is always good. But we don't really have much of that from the Americans either.

Although, as far as Egypt is concerned, I would certainly think of at least exploring the FC-31. This thing has a lot of potential considering how quick and far the Chinese have come in their development of stealth aircraft.

My only problem with that is the introduction of yet a 4th platform that would need a 4th set of separate weaponry than what currently exists in the EAF inventory. I know India flies all sorts of different platforms but the sources are pretty much relegate to 3 excluding indigenous aircraft. Egypt should stick with the 3 it currently operates in the American F-16s, French Rafales and Russian MiG-35s and if they introduce a 4th platform, the choice is probably clear in this case.

Even this thing, to me, has better shaping than the PAK-FA, especially with the most important areas, frontal and underside. If you think about it, it's like a scaled-down F-22 minus the embedded nozzles.

But PAK FA will be far ahead compared to all these aircraft. Stealth is on par, but everything else will be ahead. PAK FA is a VLO airframe, even without active measures whereas all the aircraft you named don't have active measures at all.

Even the Americans are now acknowledging their concept of stealth is flawed.
"Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson told reporters at a conference in Orlando Thursday that the system will have a "renewed emphasis" on electronic warfare, according to Aviation Week."

This statement above is absolutely hilarious. The Americans always held the view that if you have stealth, then having offensive EW capability is meaningless because you will give away your location.

But the Americans never realised that the rest of the world is far beyond that. The French equaled the F-35's capabilities with EW alone. The Russians in Syria have surprised the Americans as well.

PAK FA's coming with stuff the Americans are yet to even think of including on their own stealth aircraft.

What is the definitive version of the PAK-FA bro? Or Stage 1? Are you telling me there will be Stage 1, export version, Russian version and FGFA?

Yes.

Stage 1 is basically the Russian version with the 117 engine. Due to its low drag design, the aircraft can supercruise, but it really needs the new engine to reach mach 2.

Stage 2 is the definitive Russian version with the new engine. IOC will happen only in 2025 or later. The Russians don't want to export it.

FGFA will use the Stage 2 airframe and engines, but with new avionics. IAF does not want their definitive version exported either.

Anyway, the problem with FGFA is, we don't have the money to go for it right now. The IAF fears a lot of money will get stuck in one single R&D program when their immediate need is to stop the squadron draw down. For India, FGFA will be the largest defence R&D program ever, even bigger than the nuclear sub program. The IAF is not foolish enough to spend so much money on the very expensive FGFA when the F-35 is presumably much cheaper than the Rafale even. And the IAF is also interested in the Indian AMCA, which requires much more investment than FGFA. The IAF may end up settling for a few squadrons of the Russian version instead.

If the FGFA dies, then we have no idea what the definitive export version will really be since the Russians need a high spending partner to even make one.

 

[Fledgingwings]

The Su-57 is a """5th generation""" scam plane, I wouldn't suggest anyone to get it.

No one has ordered neither shown any intrest in this plane.even India have pulled out of it.

 

[Gomig-21]

For those still on this Fantasy bord of Comparing F-35 and Su-57...on the basis of speed and weapon load...


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/report-sukhoi-su-57-pak-fa.544685/

It's a very good and lengthy detailed description of the contents of the PAK-FA, but since it's very long, what is the reference to the F-35 that you are eluding to; it has a greater weapon's load and is faster?

If this isn't an indication that the PAK-FA lacks substantial S-ducts, I'm not sure what else would. Those intakes are about as linear as can be.

This is one of the very few photo that shows a final stage of RAM in the PAK-FA. The top of the aircraft looks terrifically smooth in and well coated in this photograph but the underside between the engines is not along the same lines of what we see in all of the other stealth aircraft to date. The F-22, F-35, J-20 and the FC-31 all have a smooth bottom where the intakes and engines are encapsulated within. The PAK-FA is the only design where the belly is recessed which never made any sense to me and I believe is a major problem in the shaping aspect.

Top side.

Now the underside.

Compare the underside of the others.

Despite the lumps and bumps on the F-35, it's bottom is flat by comparison to the Su-57 and all the others as well, while the Russians didn't bother to incorporate that seemingly critical element in the Su-57. Can't understand that at all and I think that is a major problem with the aircraft's stealthy attributes.

@randomradio , take a look at this diagram and item 101KS-P.

101KS-P , this sensor consists of an IR and UV camera used as a piloting aid for low-level flights as well as during landing. It is located at the front of the missile bay.

There is no way that is a missile bay, despite this source describing it as such, and with an IR sensor & camera on the front end of that fairing? Wishful thinking.

 

[Basel]

The Israelis make good subsystems. They obviously can't build something like the Su-57.

And as I have already said, the Su-57 is more competitive than the F-22, so why compare to the F-35?

How Su-57 is more competitive than F-22?? Su-57 from looks is not a fully 5th gen stealth plane, how IR signature of bird is reduced?? Engines will reflect RCS to radars & IR signature as currently they are not properly covered as per stealth requirements. Su-57 is still far from being fully 5th gen stealth bird, J-20 looks better.

 

[HannibalBarca]

It's a very good and lengthy detailed description of the contents of the PAK-FA, but since it's very long, what is the reference to the F-35 that you are eluding to; it has a greater weapon's load and is faster?

If this isn't an indication that the PAK-FA lacks substantial S-ducts, I'm not sure what else would. Those intakes are about as linear as can be.

This is one of the very few photo that shows a final stage of RAM in the PAK-FA. The top of the aircraft looks terrifically smooth in and well coated in this photograph but the underside between the engines is not along the same lines of what we see in all of the other stealth aircraft to date. The F-22, F-35, J-20 and the FC-31 all have a smooth bottom where the intakes and engines are encapsulated within. The PAK-FA is the only design where the belly is recessed which never made any sense to me and I believe is a major problem in the shaping aspect.

Top side.

Now the underside.

Compare the underside of the others.

Despite the lumps and bumps on the F-35, it's bottom is flat by comparison to the Su-57 and all the others as well, while the Russians didn't bother to incorporate that seemingly critical element in the Su-57. Can't understand that at all and I think that is a major problem with the aircraft's stealthy attributes.

@randomradio , take a look at this diagram and item 101KS-P.

101KS-P , this sensor consists of an IR and UV camera used as a piloting aid for low-level flights as well as during landing. It is located at the front of the missile bay.

There is no way that is a missile bay, despite this source describing it as such, and with an IR sensor & camera on the front end of that fairing? Wishful thinking.

Su-57 and F-35 are not meant for the same purpose... as for Stealth Su-57 doesn't come near the F-35 let alone the F-22.
And One thing I learned...What "seems" similar... are in fact not.

As the author said... " 5th gen aircraft is a Communication stunt... What is 5th for RU is different for the US... What RU need in a 5th aircraft is different from US needs..."

If per exmple RU acquire F-35...it will be useless for her... Since it will not fill her doctrine... and therefore be a "weakness" for her Air Force fleet.
The best Army...are those enforcing/Following their Military Doctrine and Giving the proper Training for that same "Doctrine"...

As for this Source... it's among the best you can find in RU aircraft equipment... it's not any "Defense" analyst/Engineer on X forums or Website...

 

[Signalian]

So its not actually Egypt Vs Israel, which is highly doubted to happen now.

Its F-35 vs SU-57.

 

[ziaulislam]

@randomradio , so what do you have to say now? This must conflict with you big time, being a full fledged advocate of all things Israeli as the greatest things on this earth and at the same time think the F-35 isn't worth half it's cost and basically a worthless fighter at standoff with hardly any penetrating caps and that the PAK-FA is going the be a 6th generation fighter, yes? This is a basic summary of what you and I have debated about these aircraft the last 6 months or so, no? So what do you make of what the Colonel just said?



218 F-16s including 19 blck 52s but none with AIM-120 or AIM-9X or any JDAMs, but essentially everything else.
Rafales came with MICA IR & ER and HAMMERs. MiG-35s with R-77 and R-73 and Kh-38.

if you dont have aim 120, or aim 9x or JDAMs what else do you have
can it it do precision strike or is it just left to dumb bombs and aim 9l, what abt harpoons?

importantly what about 3rd party weapons from europe, will usa allow it

 

[randomradio]

Now the underside.

Even then it's VLO.

@randomradio , take a look at this diagram and item 101KS-P.

101KS-P , this sensor consists of an IR and UV camera used as a piloting aid for low-level flights as well as during landing. It is located at the front of the missile bay.

There is no way that is a missile bay, despite this source describing it as such, and with an IR sensor & camera on the front end of that fairing? Wishful thinking.

The KS-P is a very tiny part. The size says it all. Everything behind it is the side bay.

How Su-57 is more competitive than F-22?? Su-57 from looks is not a fully 5th gen stealth plane, how IR signature of bird is reduced?? Engines will reflect RCS to radars & IR signature as currently they are not properly covered as per stealth requirements. Su-57 is still far from being fully 5th gen stealth bird, J-20 looks better.

The PAK FA is a VLO design. And it has better performance and avionics than the F-22.

So its not actually Egypt Vs Israel, which is highly doubted to happen now.

Its F-35 vs SU-57.

Only if the Egyptians buy the Su-57.

But by the time Egypt gets some, we will be in 2030 or even 2035.

 

[Basel]

Even then it's VLO.



The KS-P is a very tiny part. The size says it all. Everything behind it is the side bay.



The PAK FA is a VLO design. And it has better performance and avionics than the F-22.



Only if the Egyptians buy the Su-57.

But by the time Egypt gets some, we will be in 2030 or even 2035.

Kindly prove it.

 

[Solomon2]

I always wondered where these, "the U.S. is fighting in such-and-such-a-place to test its new weapons to better sell them abroad" memes came from. Now I know, because it's obvious this is what the Russians are doing.

 

[randomradio]

Kindly prove it.

What's there to prove?

It's VLO.

It has better performance.

It has more range and payload.

And it has better radars (notice plural) and other optical sensors (which the F-22 lacks), along with offensive EW capability.

 

[Gomig-21]

Su-57 and F-35 are not meant for the same purpose...

But the basic principles are common goals among all the different platform designs. LO shaping which includes weapons bays, advanced avionics/EW suite, long range/high fuel load and particularly fuel efficiency which leads to supercruise and lower IR signature. These are essentials that must be part of whatever is considered a 5th generation fighter. Purpose or missions comes as a result of those factors.

as for Stealth Su-57 doesn't come near the F-35 let alone the F-22.

So based on that source, you're saying that stealth-wise, Su-57 is no match to the F-35 but it carries more weapons and is faster?

if you dont have aim 120, or aim 9x or JDAMs what else do you have
can it it do precision strike or is it just left to dumb bombs and aim 9l, what abt harpoons?

This is pretty much the list of weapons the EAF has between the 3 major platforms. The F-16 still has some potent weapons in the A2G spectrum with the different GBUs and AGMs etc. It's just not at it's full potential in the A2A role with only the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9M/L/P.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_munitions_used_by_the_Egyptian_Air_Force

importantly what about 3rd party weapons from europe, will usa allow it

Well, the SCALP seems to be the only issue ATM and we'll have to wait and see if the Meteor is allowed to be sold to Egypt with the Rafale deal.

 

[The SC]

But the basic principles are common goals among all the different platform designs. LO shaping which includes weapons bays, advanced avionics/EW suite, long range/high fuel load and particularly fuel efficiency which leads to supercruise and lower IR signature. These are essentials that must be part of whatever is considered a 5th generation fighter. Purpose or missions comes as a result of those factors.



So based on that source, you're saying that stealth-wise, Su-57 is no match to the F-35 but it carries more weapons and is faster?



Well, the SCALP seems to be the only issue ATM and we'll have to wait and see if the Meteor is allowed to be sold to Egypt with the Rafale deal.

Su 57 is not invisible. They just need it to be stealth enough to reach WVR fight or at least detect the target passively with its IRST and not be detected.

Stealth is not a so advanced technology as US pretend. Most of the reduction is made through the shapes and hiding the weapons into a bay. Just with that you can achieve an RCS lower than a clean f-16. Add a primitive RAM coating and use new composite materials and you have something with a very small RCS that will reduce drastically the detection range by the X band radars.

The first fighter with proper S shaped air intake ducts was the MiG-29 sitting on the ground with its intake doors shut and overwing louvers open...

S-duck intakes have an impact on the manoeuvrability and on the design of the Aircraft. Russian are known to make their fighters very manoeuvrable and the design is very important because they want it to have a very good aerodynamic configuration. US use S-duck because they think they will shoot everything with AIM-120 from 200km and win the war like that.

The stealth is very good with the radar blockers of the Su-57 as they totally hide the engines just like the S-duck intakes do. There will always be reflection but the radar waves are absorbed by RAM Inside the intakes (same way as in S duck intakes).

An S duct just has a curve in that tube so that radar waves can't hit the engine face and reflect right back... what happens is as the tube curves the radar waves..they bounce off the sides before hitting the fan face and then bounce again before coming back out the front of the engine intake back towards the radar... the intake sides will have RAM on them so basically the radar signal will be reduced twice... once with each bounce of the intake sides.

With a radar blocker like the mesh screen on the F-117 the weave of the mesh will be similar to the radar waves being directed at it so that while it is a mesh that lets air through the radar signal will see it as flat metal so any radar beams directed at the engine intake will be deflected in another direction and won't even enter the intake.

For internal radar blockers they will use reflectors to redirect the incoming radar waves... reflecting them sideways so they reflect at a very shallow angle so they bounce a dozen or even a hundred times down the intake before glancing the front of the engine and bouncing a dozen or a hundred times back out and going off in some funny direction no where near the source of the radar signal.

There is no free lunch of course... any radar blocker you put in the engine intake from a mesh screen to anything else will effect the air flow to the engine effecting engine performance.

The reflection of the engines is a problem when the radar is at the same altitude and in front of you, when it is an AWACS flying higher than you it doesn't matter because first it won't see the SU-57 at very long range while a SU-57 can see it at 400km and more, and second you have R-37 to destroy it from 300km away. When it's another fighter, the radar blockers are enough to absorb the signal and reduce the range of detection by hundreds of km anyway especially if it is a F-16 or a Euro-canard which have small and not very powerful radars.

The actual combat performance of BVR missiles is not actually that good. Even worse when considering most AMRAAM kills were not that long range and the successful kills generally involved targets that didn't even know they were under attack until the last seconds.

The fact of the matter is that if NATO is taking on Su-57s then those Su-57s will know what is going on.

 

[Gomig-21]

I always wondered where these, "the U.S. is fighting in such-and-such-a-place to test its new weapons to better sell them abroad" memes came from. Now I know, because it's obvious this is what the Russians are doing.

Is that what the Russians are doing with the PAK-FA in Syria? Very dangerous since it's not even close to operational yet, and doesn't even have both engines tested as far as we know, only one test with a single IZD-30 installed about 2 months ago. Makes absolutely no sense at all.

Pakistan should request these SU-57s

Considering India is the primary customer of the Su-57, the likelihood of Pakistan going the PAK-FA route is very slim. FC-31 is really the only and best option for Pakistan.

Then what about General Hostage? He says that the F-35 has superior stealth compared to the F-22. But the F-22 is still superior to the F-35.

https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06...he-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/3/

What about it? His beef is that despite how good the F-35 is, they still need the EW capabilities of the Growler and they still need the A2A capabilities of the F-22. That doesn't solve the disparity between the Su-57 and the F-35. In essence, the comparison would be that the Su-57 is closer to the F-22 and we still don't really know that and that is a very tough argument to make, but given that status for example, the F-35 has many advantage over the F-22 so the same would apply to the Su-57.

I agree. Proof is always good. But we don't really have much of that from the Americans either.

Are you saying all the Red Flag results are worthless? Or is it the American SIGINT library that isn't a good enough indication?

But PAK FA will be far ahead compared to all these aircraft. Stealth is on par, but everything else will be ahead. PAK FA is a VLO airframe, even without active measures whereas all the aircraft you named don't have active measures at all.

Even the Americans are now acknowledging their concept of stealth is flawed.
"Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson told reporters at a conference in Orlando Thursday that the system will have a "renewed emphasis" on electronic warfare, according to Aviation Week."

This statement above is absolutely hilarious. The Americans always held the view that if you have stealth, then having offensive EW capability is meaningless because you will give away your location.

But the Americans never realised that the rest of the world is far beyond that. The French equaled the F-35's capabilities with EW alone. The Russians in Syria have surprised the Americans as well.

Ok so the US has basically undermined the importance of EW with respect to the F-35, but in reality it will be operating the AN/ASQ-239 ECMS system and the Growler is not going anywhere soon AND, it's not like EW is something strange to the US. Think of what the F-111's operational duties were for decades and has essentially been transferred to the Growler.

But here's the more pertinent issue in this whole Egypt/Israel thingamajig and that is, if the Israelis are so good with their subsystems, and have excelled in EW on their own since the early 1980's AND, are installing their own subsystems on their F-35's, how is it possible that the Egyptian Su-57 could be any better than the Israeli F-35?

And another question to your point about the super capabilities of the Rafale: according to you, the Rafale also exceeds the performance of the F-35, specifically with active measures which you're also saying will be coming in the Su-57. That said, are you suggesting that the Egyptian Rafales are also better than the Israeli F-35s, considering SPECTRA and all other active measures on that aircaft?

PAK FA's coming with stuff the Americans are yet to even think of including on their own stealth aircraft.

Like what?