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8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

I would not be so unkind. PN has a rich experience in using subs. The other countries want the relevant technological leap and. associated with it manpower to man the subs and train the land lubbers to become acquainted with the seas. This is why the thought came up in my mind. Nothing has changed in Pakistan to suddenly start forking out 5_6 billion dollars deals so one has to think how will the expense be paid.
Araz
Zakat was a joke.
I have stated why Pakistan might get some help, like guarantees for soft loans... It is due to the acquired know-how and the willingness of other nations to share it.
 
Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.

The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.

This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.

No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.
 
UO.TE="ACE OF THE AIR, post: 7005440, member: 153314"]If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90.
If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.

Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.
Yara
please do some sums before you post next. It will make you realize that what you are stating will set Pakistan back by 7 - 8 billion dollars. How are we going to afford this and who will pay it back. Plus a weak economy like yours is unlikely to inspire confidence in any EU country. The Germans have already been stung by so many setbacks why would they want to deal with youand await another setback possibly. Ths fact of the matter is it is not making sense to me as to where this money is coming from as we have laready ordered 4 F22s and possibly a local build of 056 or 2. It is nice to dream but for a good poster his posts need to be realistic. I think our reporters have as usual hashed the acquisition process up and given us this muddled tail. The only other option is that a helping hand is behind all of this as at least to me the sums do not add up. Which is precisely the reason I am questioning the deal.
araz

Think about the span of time for the acquisitions. If it is 10 years, than it sums up to less than a billion$ a year... for 5 years its 2 billion $ a year, both options are affordable for Pakistan, add the fact of soft loans and you can see that it is more than affordable, and we are talking about 10 billion $ deals not 7 or 8...

@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels :lol:

In the past it Has been Reported that Pakistan is getting 039 class "Songs" or 041 class Yuan class From china But now reports emerge that it is the latest variant of 041 class named "QING" class submarines for which a deal was inked for 6.

The first Qing class built for Chinese Navy was launched last year and will be going through the sea trial this month 6/2011 which will include the firing of CJ-10K LACms with a range of 1,500 KM.


The deal was signed between Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) and Pakistani Government in April 2011 is for 6 Qing class submarine, These submarines will be double hulled with a submerged displacement of 3,600 tons. It will be equipped with the new Stirling-cycle AIP and will be able to carry upto 3 CJ-10K which could carry nuclear warheds, Other features include hull retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The AIP and the propulsion systems will be all electric and not the diesal electric propulsion system making the submarines very quiet. This propulsion system has already been tested on a number of heavier Chinese submarines.
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/06/pakistan-navy-to-get-6-qing-class.html
Pakistan Navy To Get 6 QING Class Submarines And 2 Typ 054A FFGs From China - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


:bad::argh::blah::D
 
Details emerge on Chinese 'Type 032' submarine
Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Navy International
23 July 2013

Data from a Chinese poster display has offered surprising insights into the country's latest conventional missile submarine (SSB), which was first seen at the Wuhan Shipyard in September 2010.

The mystery submarine was notable for a large sail and under-hull extension that were believed to be designed to enable China to test new submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs).

The recent image appears to confirm the submarine is a replacement for the long-serving Type 031, a former Soviet Project 629 'Golf'-class conventional missile submarine (SSB) built in China in the mid-1960s.

The boat is believed to be designated 'Type 032', with data indicating that development began in January 2005 and construction started in January 2008.

http://www.janes.com/article/24901/details-emerge-on-chinese-type-032-submarine

The Type 032 is China's first indigenous conventional AIP submarine that will be equipped with VLS. The successful testing and development of this submarine type may accelerate the drive for similarly VLS-equipped conventional submarines in other Asian nations.

What we are getting 2 type 54a Frigates to???? and 4 F-22 and 6-8 subs from China
Do not know about the frigates, maybe they were replaced by 4 upgraded (VLS?) F-22s.

Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.

The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.

This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.

No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.
China can not sell the nuclear subs. It can lease them or better yet assist Pakistan in making its own.
 
Details emerge on Chinese 'Type 032' submarine
Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Navy International
23 July 2013

Data from a Chinese poster display has offered surprising insights into the country's latest conventional missile submarine (SSB), which was first seen at the Wuhan Shipyard in September 2010.

The mystery submarine was notable for a large sail and under-hull extension that were believed to be designed to enable China to test new submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs).

The recent image appears to confirm the submarine is a replacement for the long-serving Type 031, a former Soviet Project 629 'Golf'-class conventional missile submarine (SSB) built in China in the mid-1960s.

The boat is believed to be designated 'Type 032', with data indicating that development began in January 2005 and construction started in January 2008.

http://www.janes.com/article/24901/details-emerge-on-chinese-type-032-submarine

The Type 032 is China's first indigenous conventional AIP submarine that will be equipped with VLS. The successful testing and development of this submarine type may accelerate the drive for similarly VLS-equipped conventional submarines in other Asian nations.


Do not know about the frigates, maybe they were replaced by 4 upgraded (VLS?) F-22s.


China can not sell the nuclear subs. It can lease them or better yet assist Pakistan in making its own.

The SSN deal can undergo secretly under the deal of the SSK.
 
Chinese Sub Boosts Pakistan's Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent

Report by Prasun K. Sengupta: "Submarine Sails"
Wednesday June 22, 2011 04:42:25 GMT

Pakistan's efforts to have a sea-based minimum credible nuclear deterrent vis-a-vis India took a significant step forward last month when the state-owned, Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) ferried the first Qing-class conventional attack submarine (SSK) to Shanghai to begin a year-long series of sea trials, which is likely to
include the test-firing of three CJ-10K submarine-launched, 1,500km-range land attack cruise missiles (LACM) capable of being armed with unitary tactical nuclear warheads. Called the Qing-class SSK, it is a variant of the Type 041A Improved Yuan-class SSK, which is also due to begin its sea trials later this month.

It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC's Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail.

The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China's PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China's Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK's all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for
the PLA Navy's six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.

The submarine-launched CJ-10K LACM has been developed by the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp's (CASIC) Hubei-based Ninth Academy (also known as the Sanjiang Aerospace Group, or 066 Base) on cooperation
with the Third Academy's Beijing-based Xinghang Electromechanical Equipment Factory (159 Factory). Final assembly of the CJ-10K is undertaken by the Beijing-based Hangxing Machine Building Factory (239Factory). The CJ-10K features an imaging infra-red optronic system for terminal homing, and it makes use of a ring laser gyro-based inertial
navigation system combined with a GPS receiver to receive navigational updates from China's 'Beidou' constellation of GPS navigation satellites.

In another development, during Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani's four-day official visit to China beginning May 17, the decks were cleared for the Pakistan Navy to acquire for a 10-year lease period the two Jiangkai I-class Type 054 guided-missile frigates (FFG) Ma'anshan (FFG-525) and Wenzhou (FFG-526), which have been in service with the PLA Navy's East Sea Fleet since 2005 (see FORCE December 2010, pages 44-46).

The Type 054 Jiangkai I-class FFG, built by CSTC's Shanghai-based Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and the Guangzhou-based Huangpu Shipyard, displaces around 4,300 tonnes, and comes armed with twin quadruple
launchers amidships housing the YJ-83 anti-ship cruise missile (equipped with a 165kg warhead), one CPMIEC-built eight-cell Hong Qi-7 short-range SAM system designed to engage aircraft in all-weather conditions out to a range of 12km, a single-barrel 100mm main gun developed by China's 713 Institute, four six-barrel 30mm AK-630M clo se-in weapon systems (CIWS), twin 18-tube countermeasures dispensers, and twin Type 87 six-tube 240mm anti-submarine rocket launchers, with 36 rockets. The FFG has a combat management system built by China Electronics Technology Group Corp (CETC), and a sensor suite that includes a Type 360S 2-D air/surface radar operating in E/F-band and having a range of 150km, one I-band MR-36A surface search radar, an I-band Type 347G radar for CIWS fire-control, an I/J-band Type 344 radar for main gun targeting, SNTI-240 SATCOM radio, HZ-100 EW suite, twin I-band RM-1290 navigation radars, and a J-band Type 345 radar for fire-control of the Hong Q i-7. The FFG also comes fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed hull-mounted medium-frequency active/passive panoramic sonar suite. The propulsion system is of the combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) arrangement and employs four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN DieselSA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines to give the FFG a cruise speed of 27Knots.
China imported the 16 PA6V-280 STC's production rights in the late 1990s and is now producing the engines locally under licence at Shaanxi Diesel Factory. Each 16 PA6V-280 engine can produce a sustained power of 4,720kW (6,330hp), giving a total power of 18,880kW (25,320hp). The Jiangkai 1-class Type 054 FFG also has a helicopter deck capable of housing a Harbin Z-9EC multi-role shipborne helicopter, three of which are presently in service with the Pakistan Navy.

The Global Intelligence Files - CHINA/ASIA PACIFIC-Chinese Sub Boosts Pakistan's Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent
 
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It was part of the news in which it was said in Pakistani media that Pakistan will buy 8 Chinese subs and used subs from Germany, France etc.
What used subs does Germany of France have?
 
You mean that IN's U-209s will be more lethal then PN's Agosta-90Bs??
Just comparing performance figures.

but still IN know every thing about those subs that is why not wise to purchase those.
So what? The reverse is also the case.
Plus, you are assuming the subs would be identically equipped, which isn't necessarily the case.

In short, it doesn't give IN an advantage.
 
This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have nothing to validate that claim right?

And even if it were true, which Virginia are you talking about? Block's I, II, and III have different technologies in them.
 
What used subs does Germany of France have?
Forget about France. There is the possibility of German AIP U-212. I do not think that Germany is operating any U-209, but if it is than they most probably have AIP.
The U-212 can be also purchased from Italy.
 
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Forget about France. There is the possibility of German AIP U-212. I do not think that Germany is still operating any U-209, but if it is than they most probably have AIP.
The U-212 can be also purchased from Italy.
Germany has never operated any 209: it is a pure export product. Germany and Italy have co-developed and produced 212A for their navies.

France had 4 Agosta and 4 Daphne in 1992, 4 Agosta's in operation in 1996, 3 in 1998, 2 in 2000, and 0 in 2002.
 
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Germany has never operated any 209: it is a pure export product. Germany and Italy have co-developed and produced 212A for their navies.
Italy was offering the 212A on international markets. So it might be it.

Italy's Fincantieri Shipyard is currently manufacturing Type 212A submarines based on designs ... The Italian shipyard Fincantieri offers two vessels for export:.

Source: "Naval Vessel: U212A," Fincantieri, Fincantieri | Costruzioni navali - Navi da crociera, mercantili e militari - Costruzione Yacht di lusso
 
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