8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[The SC]

The current US SSBNs are huge like the Ohio class, but their current SSN varies from 6000 tons to 12000 tons.

The most common SSN for the USN is the LA class which displaces about 6000-7000 tons.

So even by the USN standard, a 6000-7000 tons nuclear sub is not meant to be small.

Small is a relative word here, it is in comparison with the double its size SSBNs. So we can talk about a normal sized 6000/7000t SSN for Pakistan.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Small is a relative word here, it is in comparison with the double its size SSBNs. So we can talk about a normal sized 6000/7000t SSN for Pakistan.

I think the SSBN like the size of the Type 094 is quite suitable for Pakistan.

Even the next gen SSBN for the USA/Russia/China will all be based on 16 silo, not the 24 silo Cold War monster like the Ohio class.

So I guess the 12 silo SSBN like the Type 094 is quite affordable for Pakistan to operate and to maintain.

 

[The SC]

I think the SSBN like the size of the Type 094 is quite suitable for Pakistan.

Even the next gen SSBN for the USA/Russia/China will all be based on 16 silo, not the 24 silo Cold War monster like the Ohio class.

So I guess the 12 silo SSBN like the Type 094 is quite affordable for Pakistan to operate and to maintain.

I agree with you, and it should be made in Pakistan with ToT.

 

[Saifullah Sani]

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines.

Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.

However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the time frame of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

 

[black-hawk_101]

Will PN be able to manufacture 8 Chinese submarines in just 5 years time by utilizing 2 Dry Docks at KS&EWs?

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China
By Usman Ansari9:09 a.m. EDT April 3, 2015
69TWEET 17LINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan is renewing efforts to modernize its submarine arm with eight submarines from China as well as a search for surplus European submarines.

Navy and Defence Ministry officials revealed the plans to the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence on Tuesday, with Economic Affairs Secretary Muhammad Saleem Sethi leaving for China to pursue the deal on Wednesday.

Analysts believe that since the National Security Committee has agreed to the deal in principle, it is likely to go ahead.

The officials also requested US $294 million to upgrade ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft. Two un-upgraded aircraft are in service, and officials hope to acquire more.

Pakistan operates five French submarines.

Its two Agosta-70s were acquired in 1979 and 1980, respectively, and despite upgrades they are widely acknowledged by analysts to be well past their prime and in need of replacement. Three air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped Agosta-90Bs, which are a development of the Agosta-70s, were commissioned from 1999 onward.

The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

Tuesday's proceedings created some confusion, however, with officials telling the committee that surplus submarines had been pursued from France, Germany, and the UK, but later acknowledging France had refused Pakistan's approaches with concerns over transfer of technology as one example.

Brian Cloughley, previous Australian defense attache to Islamabad, has said France has simply abandoned the Pakistani defense market to focus on the far more lucrative Indian one.

The mention of the UK was also surprising, considering the UK has not built or operated conventional submarines since the early 1990s, and sold its four Upholder-class subs to Canada where they now serve as the Victoria class.

Cloughley believes the Germans may not be willing or able to supply any surplus submarines either as they do not seem to have any, or at least any that Pakistan would want.

German firms offer new Type-214, Type-209/1400 mod, and Type-210 mod submarines for export.

However, Cloughley said there may be other possibilities.

Germany partnered with Turkey in 2011 to offer Indonesia a lease/new-build deal for Type-209 submarines. Indonesia, however, selected the South Korean improved Chang Bogo, a development of the Type-209/1400.

Turkish industry officials have told Defense News they are ready to offer Pakistan Type-209s if asked.

Turkey, one of Pakistan's closest allies and strongest defense industry partners, shelved its plans to upgrade its six Type-209/1200 Atilay class subs with AIP systems in favor of acquiring the Type-214.

However, Pakistani defense industry officials have said Islamabad would prefer a newer design.

It is uncertain if present circumstances have forced a rethink. "It's all supposition, and I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be an answer," Cloughley said.

Pakistan almost signed a deal for three Type-214 subs in 2008, raises hopes of Pakistan-Turkish submarine cooperation.

However, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said the deal floundered on the issue of financing after the then-Pakistan People's Party-led government signed an IMF loan agreement that derailed the sub acquisition plans.

He said the Type-214 deal was the centerpiece of the naval aspect of the AFDP, and that the first submarine would have been delivered in 2015. The naval aspect of the AFDP especially is in total disarray, he said.

It is unknown if the Type-214 was shelved until finances become available (some industry officials believe this was at least the intention at the time the deal collapsed), but attention subsequently switched to acquiring six AIP-equipped submarines from China.

Due to the need to decommission the Agosta-70s, Khan believes any refurbished submarines will be required to be "sailing under a Pakistani flag within 12 months."

Acquiring Turkish Type-209s remains possible, and despite Pakistan's predicament, Khan says "Under the present circumstances I don't see any collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey since Pakistan will only be locally producing Chinese submarines."

Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials the deal was supposed to be secured by the end of 2014.

If the deal transpires, Khan said it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Neither the Ministry of Defence nor the Navy would shed further light when asked. No answers were forthcoming to requests regarding the timeframe of the deal, whether the two Agosta-70s will finally be retired now the number of planned Chinese submarines has increased to eight, clarification on acquiring surplus Western submarines, or the status of the Type-214 acquisition efforts.

Should the Chinese deal go through, it will be a considerable relief, and be especially significant for the nuclear deterrent.

Pakistan inaugurated its Naval Strategic Force Command in 2012 in response to India's rapid nuclearization.

A potential force of 8 AIP-equipped Chinese subs and the three Agosta-90Bs "is a quantum leap in existing capabilities," said Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defence and Strategic Studies.

Though acknowledging nuclear-powered attack boats are far more capable, he believes "An AIP [diesel-electric submarine] offers Pak the best bang for the buck. But it has to be supplemented with a commensurate investment in [anti-submarine warfare] capabilities to neutralize developments on the Indian side."

He said this will lay the groundwork for having a permanent sea-based deterrent equipped with plutonium-based warheads fitted to cruise missiles, "which is expected to be the next major milestone in Pakistan's development of a triad."

Ahmed acknowledges this "would pose fresh challenges for ensuring effective and secure communications at all times with the submarines for both India and Pak in addition to having a mated-arsenal at sea that would require pre-delegation of launch authority at some level for both countries.

"This would be an altogether new challenge that would have to be addressed for an effective sea-based deterrent."

Nevertheless, AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."
Pakistan To Buy 8 Submarines From China

WORLD VIEW: CHINA TO SELL EIGHT ADVANCED SUBMARINES TO PAKISTAN, ENCIRCLING INDIA

Xinhua/Yao Dawei/AFP
by JOHN J. XENAKIS4 Apr 201544


This morning’s key headlines from GenerationalDynamics.com

• China to sell eight advanced submarines to Pakistan, encircling India
• As Russia-Saudi relations deteriorate, Egypt tries a middle road
• Greece turns to Russia and China, amid reports of imminent default

China to sell eight advanced submarines to Pakistan, encircling India

Submarine image from Pakistan Defense

The naval arms race between India and Pakistan took a big leap forward this week, as Pakistan signed a deal to acquire eight advanced conventional (non-nuclear) diesel-powered submarines from China. Pakistan’s Ministry of Defense said that the eight submarines were being purchased from China to address the force imbalance with India, as India has been expanding its own fleet.

China and Pakistan are “all-weather” friends, and this is a particularly large military sale. Also, as a sign of Pakistan’s close relationship with China, this is the first time China has exported its submarines to anyone.

India has been expanding its fleet not just because of Pakistan, but because of China. China has been rapidly expanding its own fleet ( “28-Feb-15 World View — US Navy says that China now has more attack submarines than US”), and India claims that China has been “encircling” India with naval bases.

The Indians particularly point to the Gwadar Port on the Indian Ocean in Pakistan, which China has been developing. The port serves a dual purpose. On the one hand, it is a military naval base. But it is also a way for China to avoid maritime choke points in the Indian and Pacific oceans by moving Persian Gulf oil and gas over land from Gwadar to China.

China claims to have three principles in selling arms to other counts:

• The arms must be for self-defense.
• The weapons must not impair the peace, security and stability of the region.
• The weapons sales must not interfere with the recipient nation’s internal affairs.

However, Western nations have accused China of repeatedly impairing the stability of the region, such as through the sales of advanced cruise missiles to Pakistan that began in the 1990s. Those accusations will certainly be renewed with China’s sale of this submarine fleet to Pakistan.

A few days ago, I reported on Pakistan’s close relationship with Saudi Arabia. As I have been saying for about ten years, Generational Dynamics predicts that the world is headed for a new “Clash of Civilizations” world war that will pit the West, India, Russia and Iran versus China, Pakistan and the Sunni Muslim countries. Dawn (Pakistan) and Marine Linkand Lowy Institute (Australia)

As Russia-Saudi relations deteriorate, Egypt tries a middle road
Relations between Russia and Saudi Arabia have never been particularly friendly, especially since 1938, when Stalin closed the Soviet embassy in Saudi Arabia. Diplomatic relations were not restored until after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but they have not been close.

In recent years, the Russians have infuriated the Saudis by providing billions of dollars of weapons to the regime of Syria’s president Bashar al-Assad.

The Saudis have infuriated the Russians by refusing to cut production as the price of oil collapsed, thereby harming Russia’s economy.

Russia has accused the Saudis of supplying weapons to the militias fighting against al-Assad in Syria. The Saudis have accused Russia of invading Crimea in order to kill the Crimean Muslim (Tatar) population.

Egypt is a close ally of Saudi Arabia, and the two countries are partners in the joint Arab military intervention in Yemen, against Iran-backed Houthis.

Egypt depends on Saudi Arabia for financial aid, but would also like a close relationship with Russia. Egypt has had a much longer relationship with Russia, with Russian czars supporting Orthodox Christians in Egypt as far back as the 16th century, and the Soviet Union was a key backer of Egypt in the decades after World War II.

Egypt is in a unique situation: Egypt would like to purchase weapons from Russia, funded by $2 billion of Saudi money. However, Russia has not been quick to sign such a deal, and the Saudi media is reminding Egyptians that 2,500 Egyptian soldiers died defending Crimea from the Russians back in the mid-19th century.

So although Egypt would like to have closer relations with Russia, it appears that they will be overshadowed by Egypt’s very close relations with Saudi Arabia. Al-Monitor andWashington Post

Greece turns to Russia and China, amid reports of imminent default
Unconfirmed reports suggest that Greece plans to miss its next scheduled bailout loan repayment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and will go into default next week on Wednesday (8-Apr). This would be the best time, since banks are scheduled to be closed for the following four days in celebration of Greek Orthodox Easter, which occurs next Sunday. According to this report, currency bills in Greece’s traditional drachma currency have already been printed, and Greece’s government would use those four days to convert from the euro currency back to the drachma currency.

Other reports suggest that Greece has been turning to Russia and China for bailout funds that would permit it to retain the euro currency. Russia might consider supplying these funds to Greece, in return for Greece’s full-throated opposition to EU sanctions against Russia. China might consider supplying the funds as part of a deal to purchase Greece’s port of Piraeus, which China’s Cosco shipping group would like to buy.

Alternatively, the Europeans may manage, once again, to find a way to “kick the can down the road,” and permit Greece to get through the current week’s crisis and continue until the next crisis, which is currently scheduled for July. Investment Watch and Economist

KEYS: Generational Dynamics, China, India, Pakistan, Gwadar Port, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, Egypt, Syria, Bashar al-Assad, Ukraine, Crimea, Yemen, Houthis, Egypt, Greece
World View: China to Sell Eight Advanced Submarines to Pakistan, Encircling India - Breitbart

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

↑
@@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels
May be they run on water

@The SC

This was meant to be a joke in reply to the option of Solar Panels charging the batteries. For Solar energy to charge one has to be on the surface (on top) not at the bottom (submerged).

OR

These submarines are made on Alien tech that can somehow change Water into Electricity.

 

[The SC]

↑
@@waz Should you ask him how Submarine charge their batteries without diesel engine, by Solar Panels
May be they run on water

@The SC

This was meant to be a joke in reply to the option of Solar Panels charging the batteries. For Solar energy to charge one has to be on the surface (on top) not at the bottom (submerged).

OR

These submarines are made on Alien tech that can somehow change Water into Electricity.

I knew it was in response to the other post about solar panels.
Now even your joke is right, but it is not water that is transformed to electricity, it is the AIP system working on different liquids depending on the technology being used, plus fuel cells plus batteries plus electric motors. The whole package is seemingly a bit heavier than the diesel electric propulsion. But these subs come at a minimum of around 4000t and a maximum of almost 7000t, so they are big and can accommodate the All electric propulsion (electric drive) easily.

 

[Manticore]

I read somewhere that it's difficult / more costly to integrate AIP in old 209s

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

U-209 is mature, proven design. Used ones are cheap and available from non-German navies.
On SPANISH S-80A read this closely: S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


From that article
"On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS."

So, of the four 214s ordered by Greece, no. 2,3 and 4 are Greek built and will be accepted. The apparently faulty 1st boat, made in Germany, will be offered for sale. Boats 5 and 6 have yet to be ordered.

There are no 212s in Greece.

For PN it might be a possibility that the 1st Greek U-214 is bought to get the training and TOT can be acquired from Turkey or South Korea in the case of further orders. This would also provide the 12 subs as per the 2015 modernization plan. Though this would increase the operational costs because of no standardized naval fleet.

 

[aqdus]

Its possible only if Pak is sharing its Nukes with Saudi..otherwise, just a dream!

OOHH YESSSS NOW I CAN FEEL SOMETHING IS BURNING HARD

Ohh really.... i dnt understand anything..

use translator and i promise its not difficult to translate through google

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@araz

UO.TE="ACE OF THE AIR, post: 7005440, member: 153314"]If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90.
If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.

Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.

Yara
please do some sums before you post next. It will make you realize that what you are stating will set Pakistan back by 7 - 8 billion dollars. How are we going to afford this and who will pay it back. Plus a weak economy like yours is unlikely to inspire confidence in any EU country. The Germans have already been stung by so many setbacks why would they want to deal with youand await another setback possibly. Ths fact of the matter is it is not making sense to me as to where this money is coming from as we have laready ordered 4 F22s and possibly a local build of 056 or 2. It is nice to dream but for a good poster his posts need to be realistic. I think our reporters have as usual hashed the acquisition process up and given us this muddled tail. The only other option is that a helping hand is behind all of this as at least to me the sums do not add up. Which is precisely the reason I am questioning the deal.
araz[/QUOTE]

We always talk about affordability and availability of funds. One factor that we miss out on is how do we achieve affordability?

Affordability has two major requirements (1) Low initial cost, (2) Low maintenance costs. If these are attained then the Operational cost is also low. It is possible to reduce these if they are mass produced (a larger quantity). The operational cost can change due to other reasons like inflation etc.

Looking at Pakistan Navy today they are maintaining different equipment in small numbers hence all these add up to a higher operational costs even though they fulfill the requirements mentioned above. Now if these are to be standardized they would definitely reduce the costs drastically. However this might seem to increase the costs in the short term but would have lower cost at a long term period.

Pakistan Navy requires more funds (agreed) for attaining a standard fleet. Now how are they going to work on this plan? The answer I'm giving is of AM Noor Khan,
"Once it is known that we have to be number one then it is easy to plan the course"

The requirements of PN might not be more than $ 3 billion per year for this kind of accusations.
This would include Corvettes, Frigates, Submarines, airborne assets etc.

Do you think it is not possible for Govt. of Pakistan to arrange $ 3 bln for P.N.?

Well, China can offer the deal of the nuclear sub in the same package.

The Type 093G with 24 advanced VLS cells and a newly designed nuclear reactor, also with the pump-jet propulsion.

This is China's peer SSN against the Virginia class, better than the Soviet Oscar class and the American LA class.

No matter how 'advanced' the European SSKs are, nothing can match the deal of the advanced SSN.

Pakistan can not purchase these directly from China or any other country as per international law. However leasing can be done, India has been doing this through Russia for some time now.

There is also another way that is to enter into a joint venture in an existing or future nuclear submarine project.

That is the smallest one can get, smaller than that was the first US nuclear submarine "The Nautilus" at 5000t with no weapons at all.

Would it not be a better idea to have an all electric sub then this kind (5000 tons) of nuclear one. The only advantage is the range and time it can remain submerged in a nuclear sub.

 

[truthseeker2010]

There is massive confusion weather we are buyung S20 or else

PN will be going for S-20 because its a smaller version of yuan class, yuan would be more expensive. The only modification to PN S-20 variant will be addition of AIP.

 

[Zarvan]

PN will be going for S-20 because its a smaller version of yuan class, yuan would be more expensive. The only modification to PN S-20 variant will be addition of AIP.

According to news we are going for a new bigger version not smaller version

 

[SipahSalar]

How do these submarines compare to Augosta 90B? Are they more advanced? Less advanced? Equal? Mind you, France retired Augosta 90B ages ago, so even that submarine is a relic.