8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[ACE OF THE AIR]

We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?

I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.




So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.

If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.

If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90.
If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.

Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.

 

[Zarvan]

We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?

I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.




So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.

If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.

We are buying good Subs and I think we should build one more Augusta 8 from China and two nuclear

 

[Asian.Century]

@araz : We do have lots of steel made in Pakistan. Generally, people are thinking Chinese Subs are equal or lesser to Agosta 90s, if not better. We do not know the AIP technology used in S-20s and whether they will be on S-20 / 039s. S-20s / 039s are small submarines. That is why, due to lack of knowledge, we are not fed complete information. Lets hope the Type 041, latest ones are the most modern PN gets, with AIP, and SLCM system at the bare minimum to have any big impact. My fingers are crossed.

We are buying good Subs and I think we should build one more Augusta 8 from China and two nuclear

S20s are just good subs, not enough information available yet, but Western ones with better steel quality to say longer submerged and better AIP technology to remain undetected underwater much longer, good weapons integration with a variety of modular design, - have an edge over Chinese subs. The PN or Govt as yet to confirm the total numbers in final deal signing, as well as which western subs are we going to finally buy for $4 billion. I agree we need 1-2 Agosta's with AIPs, two Nuclear based Ballistic Missile subs are a must, otherwise its no good.
@ACE OF THE AIR

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@AsianUnion

At present only 3 Agosta subs are available but those are older then the ones PN operates and the updates are also not known. State of AIP is also unknown and would PN be given AIP by France once it is decided that these 3 are bought.
PN has been refused any newer subs by France hence this leaves PN with a new type of sub.

Now if PN is going for larger Chinese Subs then the western subs would definitely be smaller or similar in size to the Agosta's.

Options

German U-209's but these are old design (highly unlikely) might not be available due to India.
German U-214/216's These are available through Turkey, Italy, Greece, Germany and South Korea. (Highly Likely in PN) Available.
Spanish S-80 A new sub developed from the Agosta (PN might not want to have this as this would not be too different to the Agosta's). might not be Available due to INDIA
Swedish Gotland class / Sodermanland Class (These might not be available).

 

[PakShaheen79]

Just to clear the confusion on Chinese diesel electric SSKs

Type 032 Qing Class -- Only one built. Undergoing test and evaluation. Biggest conventional sub in the world. (92 m)
Type 039 - Song Class
Type 041 - Yuan Class
Type S-20 ...Export version of Yuan without AIP. (Though due to its modular design, provision of AIP module is there on customer request.)

So here is my question about Qing class. I have read on internet and on this very threat that in 2011 Pak-China finalized deal for Qing class sub but at the same time they put its displacement @ 3000 ton. Furthermore, Qing construction completed in 2013. how come Pak-China signed deal for a project which was not even evaluated?

 

[truthseeker2010]

Does somebody know how many weapons does S-20 carry?

 

[Penguin]

Why Pakistan want to purchase used subs like U-209 which are in use of IN too. In near future even IN may retire those.

Agosta Class is superseded by S-80 class (which Spain wants), is it possible for Pakistan to go for those subs?? @Penguin how good Italian S-80 will be as they also supersede Scorpion subs.

S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U-209 is mature, proven design. Used ones are cheap and available from non-German navies.
On SPANISH S-80A read this closely: S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but @Penguin stated that those are going to join the Greek Navy and are not available.

There was a documentary regarding the U212's rusting in the Greek Docks and the bail out for these Docks was the Costa Concordia being sent there to atleast give them some work so that they are able to pay the workers who were waiting for their salaries.

Type 214 submarine sale will be used to pay the Greek debt

From that article
"On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS."

So, of the four 214s ordered by Greece, no. 2,3 and 4 are Greek built and will be accepted. The apparently faulty 1st boat, made in Germany, will be offered for sale. Boats 5 and 6 have yet to be ordered.

There are no 212s in Greece.

 

[The SC]

May be they run on water

Impacts of electric propulsion systems on submarine design.

Thesis (Degree of Naval Engineer and M.S. in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science) Massachusetts Institute of Technology, June 1989

A theoretical study was carried out on the effects of replacing submarine turbine-reduction gear propulsion drive systems with an equivalent electric drive system. Alternating current (A.C.) and direct current (D.C.) systems were designed using computer based machine synthesis programs. The systems considered included direct drive motors operating at the speed of the submarine drive shaft and motors operating at higher speeds in conjunction with integral single stage reduction gears. Methods to improve the efficiency of the various motors for speeds other than rated speed were examined. The impacts of the electric system designs were evaluated in terms of the ability of a mechanical drive submarine design to accept the replacement of the mechanical components with the equivalent electric components and meet standard submarine design closure criteria. All electric drive variants met the basic naval architectural feasibility requirements. Electric drive systems were heavier, required less arrangeable volume and were generally less efficient than the mechanical baseline ship. Gear reduced electric systems were lighter and more than the direct drive, low speed motor based systems. Electric submarine drive is a feasible alternative to conventional mechanical, locked train transmission systems. Electric drive installations carry penalties in terms of added weight and reduced propulsion plant efficiency that must be recognized and accepted by the ship designer. Keywords: Theses; Submarine engineering; Electric propulsion system

Impacts of electric propulsion systems on submarine design. : Ballard, Michael A. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Getting Electric Terminology

Electric Drive
A propulsion system that uses an electric motor to turn the ship's propeller.

Integrated Electric Power System
A design whereby the electric drive propulsion system and the ship's service electrical system are powered from electrical sources in such a way that power can be distributed between them, on demand, according to the current operational situation; also referred to as integrated electric drive.


All Electric Ship
A ship with an integrated electric power system, in which all hydraulic, pneumatic, or other actuation devices or systems; an eventual extension of an integrated electric power system.

An Integrated Electric Power System: the Next Step

---------------------------------------------------------

Here is a good read on Electric drive

Going Electric: The History and Future of Naval Electric Drive

Going Electric: The History and Future of Naval Electric Drive | Defense Media Network

Ha ha there has to be a limit to twisting facts into grand lies and wishful thinking clouding straight judgement even for a fanboy and cheerleader.

While the whole post has more holes than swiss cheese the all electric propulsion with no diesel engines at all takes the cake.

Salute to you and to your positive rating for that piece of work Sire!

Just point out the holes if you have something interesting to say, and read my last post on the electric drive propulsion, you might learn a thing or two.

Thanx for the comment sire!

 

[Basel]

U-209 is mature, proven design. Used ones are cheap and available from non-German navies.
On SPANISH S-80A read this closely: S-80-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


From that article
"On October 27, 2009 the Greek Ministry of Defence officially confirmed that they intend accepting the three boats built in Greece. The first-of-class boat built in Kiel will not be accepted, and will be offered for sale. Proceeds from the sale will be used to pay the debt to TKMS."

So, of the four 214s ordered by Greece, no. 2,3 and 4 are Greek built and will be accepted. The apparently faulty 1st boat, made in Germany, will be offered for sale. Boats 5 and 6 have yet to be ordered.

There are no 212s in Greece.

Will it be wise decision of PN to go for U-209s used ones which IN also use U-209/1500?? are they better then Agosta-90Bs with AIP??

 

[araz]

UO.TE="ACE OF THE AIR, post: 7005440, member: 153314"]If it is 12 subs then one is remaining that has to be a used Agosta 90.
If it is 16 subs then the remaining 5 could be either the U214's of Greece (3 complete +1 in Dock). The Turkish U-214 could fill the last slot, with a further 5 option to replace the Agosta's could come from Turkey of South Korea.

Though there is also another possibility that PN might have gone for All China 6 + 8= 14 Subs.[/QUOTE]
Yara
please do some sums before you post next. It will make you realize that what you are stating will set Pakistan back by 7 - 8 billion dollars. How are we going to afford this and who will pay it back. Plus a weak economy like yours is unlikely to inspire confidence in any EU country. The Germans have already been stung by so many setbacks why would they want to deal with youand await another setback possibly. Ths fact of the matter is it is not making sense to me as to where this money is coming from as we have laready ordered 4 F22s and possibly a local build of 056 or 2. It is nice to dream but for a good poster his posts need to be realistic. I think our reporters have as usual hashed the acquisition process up and given us this muddled tail. The only other option is that a helping hand is behind all of this as at least to me the sums do not add up. Which is precisely the reason I am questioning the deal.
araz

 

[Penguin]

Will it be wise decision of PN to go for U-209s used ones which IN also use U-209/1500??

How is it at all relevant that IN has 209/1500s?

are they better then Agosta-90Bs with AIP??

It has been proven possible to upgrade the 209 submarines with the latest air independent propulsion (AIP) systems. The first ships to receive this upgrade were to be three ships of the Greek Poseidon class Type 209/1200 under the Neptune II upgrade program. They were to be upgraded by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship. While the program was canceled in 2009 due to cancellation of the Archimedes Project (Type 214), Okeanos (S118) completed the upgrade.

209 is faster submerged, dives deeper, has smaller crew, has 8 rather than 4 torpedo tubes. Don't know about noise levels, which is of course a critical variable.
Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Basel]

How is it at all relevant that IN has 209/1500s?


It has been proven possible to upgrade the 209 submarines with the latest air independent propulsion (AIP) systems. The first ships to receive this upgrade were to be three ships of the Greek Poseidon class Type 209/1200 under the Neptune II upgrade program. They were to be upgraded by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship. While the program was canceled in 2009 due to cancellation of the Archimedes Project (Type 214), Okeanos (S118) completed the upgrade.

209 is faster submerged, dives deeper, has smaller crew, has 8 rather than 4 torpedo tubes. dpm
t know about noise levels, which is of course a critical variable.
Agosta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 209 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You mean that IN's U-209s will be more lethal then PN's Agosta-90Bs?? but still IN know every thing about those subs that is why not wise to purchase those.

 

[Penguin]

Incidentally, where did this 209 talk come from?

 

[Basel]

Incidentally, where did this 209 talk come from?

It was part of the news in which it was said in Pakistani media that Pakistan will buy 8 Chinese subs and used subs from Germany, France etc.

 

[Zarvan]

Does somebody know how many weapons does S-20 carry?

There is massive confusion weather we are buyung S20 or else