8 Chinese submarines approval & used western subs talks

[araz]

Sir that is not just news that is what Navy Guys have told our NA Defence comittiee

Lets wait and see. I think the number 8 included 2 out of the three subs which we wanted to acquire from Germany. What happens to the twelfth remains to be seen (8+3 90Bs). I maybe totally wrong but 14 subs is a large number and then what do we want them for?
Araz

 

[Mutakalim]

Lets wait and see. I think the number 8 included 2 out of the three subs which we wanted to acquire from Germany. What happens to the twelfth remains to be seen (8+3 90Bs). I maybe totally wrong but 14 subs is a large number and then what do we want them for?
Araz

You are seeing any change of threat perception or change in current posture?

 

[Asian.Century]

I somehow doubt the bit of news about second hand subs. The fact that the Chinese order has gone up from 6 to 8 means that these efforts have not borne fruit and PN has finally settled on the Chi option. It makes sense to me to have subs sourced. from One vendor only . We will also have access to any developments that the Chinese make and so the later lot may well be slightly more developed than the former. The development of in house facilities would be a big plus to the deal.
Araz

It's true we are looking for more Western Submarines. The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

We also need Nuclear powered for Ballistic and Missiles Submarine launch non-conventional subs.

And the 8 Chinese subs are not final yet, deal has not been signed, and i think it would remain 6 or 4 initial delivery, as Chinese subs are still to be tested by PN, relative new AIP technology and Weapons integration, and this is the first time PN will operate them. Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow from French to make them?

 

[Zarvan]

It's true we are looking for more Western Submarines. The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

We also need Plus Nuclear powered for Ballistic and Missiles Submarine launch subs.

And the 8 Chinese subs are not final yet, deal has not been signed, and i think it would remain 6 or 4, initial delivery as Chinese subs are still to be tested by PN, and this is the first time PN will operate them. Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow to make them?

Neither 6 or 4 its 8 and we are going for 8 and I think its two type of Submarines most probably 4 each

 

[AliWaqar]

SAy Whatever u Want to say GEnRels knows Better Then u main ny tu yeah b para hai k hina Apna aircraft carrier b indian occan main bej raha ha to proteect pak china economic Door So Get ready Dude Now U ll Get Shocked after Every 3 Month

 

[araz]

It's true we are looking for more Western Submarines. The Navy requires 12 submarines laid out in the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) 2015 and a later revised plan.

We also need Nuclear powered for Ballistic and Missiles Submarine launch non-conventional subs.

And the 8 Chinese subs are not final yet, deal has not been signed, and i think it would remain 6 or 4 initial delivery, as Chinese subs are still to be tested by PN, relative new AIP technology and Weapons integration, and this is the first time PN will operate them. Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow from French to make them?

Good luck trying to convince the french to sell you the parts required. The 90 b tech is old now. We need to move on.
Araz

 

[Asian.Century]

Neither 6 or 4 its 8 and we are going for 8 and I think its two type of Submarines most probably 4 each

We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?

I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.

Good luck trying to convince the french to sell you the parts required. The 90 b tech is old now. We need to move on.
Araz

So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.

If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.

 

[babbar]

I do not think so. The Chinese SSKs are among the best in the world according to many respected Western analysts. Not only that, they have unique features that other SSK comprising the U-214 and 216 lack, like the tested and proven All electric propulsion systems with no diesel engines at all and a most modern AIP based on the Stirling Cycle model developed in China.
If one can think how powerful and efficient the old Kilo class (the black hole as it is known in the West) were/still are. He can easily find out that these Subs are at least twice more efficient... and based on totally modern technologies.
If one also knows how picky the Pak navy is, he will have a good idea of these subs and not a mere choice of compulsion!
Weapons integration is going through trials for SLBM with 1700 km . the ones with 700km range SLCM have already been tested and integrated. These possibilities were not available in the German submarines, neither was ToT.
The fact that a Chinese SSK popped up from nowhere in the middle of the US fleet during manoeuvres in SCS, tells quite a lot about the Chinese SSKs. The US was so intrigued that it requested a visit to see this Submarine and a team of USN headed by an admiral were granted permission from China to visit it, showing how confident the Chinese were concerning the uniqueness of their technologies.
Pakistan is thus getting the best deal ever, since even the Subs signatures are not known either.

Ha ha there has to be a limit to twisting facts into grand lies and wishful thinking clouding straight judgement even for a fanboy and cheerleader.

While the whole post has more holes than swiss cheese the all electric propulsion with no diesel engines at all takes the cake.

Salute to you and to your positive rating for that piece of work Sire!

 

[araz]

Zakat, Ha! Ha! Ha!
Saudi Arabia and Malaysia wanted to have a submarine JV with Pakistan, maybe this is it. Pakistan with its existing Know-How in building submarines and the new acquired Know hows will make Pakistan the pivot, and will provide the much needed _own_ submarines to at least the 3 nations.

I would not be so unkind. PN has a rich experience in using subs. The other countries want the relevant technological leap and. associated with it manpower to man the subs and train the land lubbers to become acquainted with the seas. This is why the thought came up in my mind. Nothing has changed in Pakistan to suddenly start forking out 5_6 billion dollars deals so one has to think how will the expense be paid.
Araz

 

[PakShaheen79]

Pakistan's Quest for Modern Submarines Ended up with Chinese Platform

By Shahzad Masood Roomi
Pakistani government has accepted the summery request of Pakistan Navy to purchase of 8 new submarines from China. This was revealed by Pakistan Navy officials on March 31 while briefing National Assembly's defence committee. It was also reported that Pakistan Navy is looking for conventional submarines from European sources as well.
The country was in search of an affordable diesel electric submarine (SSK) since which could provide customization for Pakistani developed cruise missiles (CM) and Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles (SLBM). This capability was critical for Pakistan Navy's submarine to put Pakistan's Naval strategic force command (NSFC) in operation. Current fleet of Pakistan Navy submarine comprises on French Agosta-90B and Agosta-70 submarine with no capability to fire CM or SLBM. Though Agosta 90-B is capable firing SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles but it lacks the ability to launch long range cruise and ballistic missiles.
The negotiations between Pakistan and China on a submarine deal initiated in 2011 when India opted for French made Scorpion submarines which are more advanced than Pakistani Agosta-90Bs acquired in 1990s. Six Scorpene submarines are currently being built at the Mazagon Dock Ltd in Mumbai with technology from French firm DCNS under project code named P-75. Around the same time when India initiated project -75, Pakistan was also interested in German built Type-214 SSKs which were considered an adequate response of modernization of Indian submarine fleet. But issues like higher cost and German refusal to upgrade the subs to make them able to fire cruise missiles. Pakistan already has tested surface and air launched cruise missiles and a submarine launched version is next logical step.
Though it is not clear which type has been selected by Pakistan Navy but IHS Janes has reported a Pakistani Foreign Ministry official saying that "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines". It is believed that Yuan Class (Type 041) submarine has displacement in between 3500-4000 ton and is equipped with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles (Mach 0.9, Range = 120 km), YJ-803 (180 Km) and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes. Yu-6 wake-homing torpedoes may also be carried. Yuan class is considered the successor of Type 039 Song Class submarine making it 3rd model of Chinese indigenous SSKs. Type 039 itself was a successor of Type 035 Ming Class submarine. Type 041, just like 039, is believed to be a combination of both western and Chinese technologies. Germany supplied propulsion system for Type-039 and according to a secret Indian report published in 2013, China was to built 15 more Yuan class submarines with German engines. In Type 039, three German MTU 16V396SE84 diesel engines drive the large asymmetrical seven-bladed skewed propeller through a single shaft. The sub is said to have an operational range of 8,000 km. According to Global Security website, The Yuan incorporates lessons from the PLAN's experience with the Kilo. The Yuan incorporates some of the best features of the Song and the Kilo. Equipped with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, the Type 041 has also an export version as well which has been dubbed as S-20 with some reduced capabilities such as AIP system, lower total length (66m vs 75m of Type-041) and lower displacement around 2300 tons. It is not clear, if Pakistan has opted for S-20 (with modular AIP as is being offered by Chinese) or the original Type 041 which has been deployed by PLAN but there is a general consensus among maritime experts that these submarines would come with some specific customization as per the requirements of Pakistan Navy. Some sources also of the view that Pakistan Navy is looking to work with two Chinese submarines S-26 and S-30 and both of these are based on new Type-032 Qing Class conventional submarine which remains more advanced than Type 041. Qing Class submarines have a length of more than 92 meters and displacement in excess of 6500 tons. AIP equipped submarine has special Vertical Launch (VLS) tubes for CJ-10 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM). The deal for Qing class between Pakistan and China was reported in 2011. Both Yuan and Qing class submarines are believed to equipped with CY-1 anti-submarine rocket as well. Type-032 was completed in 2013 and has been in sea trials since then.
It is also believed that Pakistan will built some of these submarines under transfer of technology just like Pakistan build one of four Chinese F-22P frigates. Reportedly, these subs would be built at Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) in Orama. There is no confirmed official statement regarding the cost of this entire fleet of submarines but there is a general understanding that an AIP equipped submarine equipped with anti-ship cruise missiles will not cost anything less than $400 million. Buy this estimation the minimum total cost of 8 submarines would be around $4 billion including training, logistics and ToT making it the largest order in history of Pakistan Navy. China will probably provide Pakistan with soft loan for this deal just like JF-17 fighter program,
ANALYSIS
A deal of 8 Chinese conventional subs would be a leap forward in Pakistan's maritime security considering the prevailing balance of maritime power projection balance in Arabian Sea which is overwhelming in Indian Navy's favor. Indians are monitoring this deal very closely. After the evolution of Indian submarine fleet and its proposed future plans, such a deal from Pakistan was expected since long. The decision should had been made in 2010-11 times but most probably Pakistan Navy was also keen to observe Chinese submarine program and its success. All the potential Chinese submarines discussed above are part of PLAN fleet since number of years now and this gave Pakistan Navy evaluation team considerable confidence in Chinese system. Considering Pakistan's demand for customized platforms made China the obvious choice for such project.

But if we look closely at this news, this is not all about Chinese submarines. Pakistan Navy is looking for European platforms as well in form of used subs. Question is, Why so many sub-surface platforms Pakistan is keen to induct? What Pakistan is trying to achieve here in strategic sense with such procurement? One possible explanation of this quest is enhanced requirements of Pakistan Navy due to recent extension in Pakistan's maritime boundaries. Another and more precise answer would be one encompassing Pakistan's Naval Strategic Force Command and its operational status. Evidently, Pakistan is looking for having two tiers in its submarine fleet like all major naval powers. One consisting on conventional submarines like Agosta-90Bs and whatever used sub Pakistan can get from Europe while second tier consisting on submarines capable to firing SLBM giving Pakistan robust 2nd strike capability by the end of the decade as part of its minimum strategic deterrence policy. It must be remembered that the requirement of 12 conventional submarine were orignally part of the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP), a comprehensive program envisioned in 2010 for long term modernization of all three forces of Pakistan.


Security and Threat Matrix: Pakistan's Quest for Modern Submarines Ended up with Chinese Platform

 

[kaku1]

Why not we make more Agosta's when we already have ToT and domestic facilities and knowhow from French to make them?

You think if this is that much simple, then why other countries still hanging around?

 

[araz]

We require 12+ as per AFDP plan 2015. And what two types of subs are you talking about?

I donot think these Yuan Class which PN is buying can fire, Cruise or Ballistic missile, which Pakistan makes it in house, very professionally.




So why spend millions of Pakistani dollars on acquiring ToT? Can u tell me what was the need for that, this is criminal negligence? we could have just bought Agosta's direct from French, rather than paying extra millions for ToT.

If not French, we have Spanish S-80s, German Type 216, Turkish-German Type 209s, South Koreans, Greek ex-U-214s, Spanish and especially the Japanese subs to explore options, since they might be better than in capability from Chinese subs.

You need to understand the situation that PN faces. We dont have the steel which is required to build this sub. Specialized sections were built and transferred from the french. We learnt to weld together parts 9 the sub which is a good skill to acquire. We got a lot of software for design and cutting and other computerised equipment and guess where that was used. We also built parts of the sub but the main components are way beyond our capability to build.So my young brother in industry one takes baby steps be you start running otherwise you look like a fool when things start failing (need I point my finger at some examples of how not to do things). The right way is how we managed manufacturing of JFT and also our corvettes.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

You need to understand the situation that PN faces. We dont have the steel which is required to build this sub. Specialized sections were built and transferred from the french. We learnt to weld together parts 9 the sub which is a good skill to acquire. We got a lot of software for design and cutting and other computerised equipment and guess where that was used. We also built parts of the sub but the main components are way beyond our capability to build.So my young brother in industry one takes baby steps be you start running otherwise you look like a fool when things start failing (need I point my finger at some examples of how not to do things). The right way is how we managed manufacturing of JFT and also our corvettes.
Araz

We do have steel mills in Pakistan which are going through expansions with the help of our friends. All these developments would require them to produce the steel. Moreover it might be possible that these also require some parts made by 3D printing and composites. It could indicate revival of Steel mills and ship building in Pakistan.

Iron ore can be purchased even China requires to purchase iron so it is not difficult.

 

[kaku1]

You need to understand the situation that PN faces. We dont have the steel which is required to build this sub. Specialized sections were built and transferred from the french. We learnt to weld together parts 9 the sub which is a good skill to acquire. We got a lot of software for design and cutting and other computerised equipment and guess where that was used. We also built parts of the sub but the main components are way beyond our capability to build.So my young brother in industry one takes baby steps be you start running otherwise you look like a fool when things start failing (need I point my finger at some examples of how not to do things). The right way is how we managed manufacturing of JFT and also our corvettes.
Araz

Yes, you truly correct,


Ship and submarine building is not a cakewalk (the most difficult part is designing),,
one have to study Indian case, even after building Arihant class, still India not able to build SSK. Why? There is serious manpower crunch inside even in Indian shipyards.

In 2006, no one think about MDL gonna have serious manpower crunch after Arihant order. In 2007, when Indian Govt. ordered L&T for Arihant, L&T hired all designers, welders and engineers from MDL, with more perks and salary.
That caused Scorpene delay, the MDL had to train its whole new employees from scratch.

Definitely even after designing capability and construction of submarine, L&T is already overbooked after clearance of SSN. And MDL with Scorpene, so thats why India chooses P-75I.

One thing to note, before Arihant and Kolkata, all the warship grade steel was imported from Russia, when in 2005 Russia refused to provide, then SAIL developed the warship grade steel.

There are lot of serious trouble in shipbuilding/submarine building than we think of.

 

[araz]

We do have steel mills in Pakistan which are going through expansions with the help of our friends. All these developments would require them to produce the steel. Moreover it might be possible that these also require some parts made by 3D printing and composites. It could indicate revival of Steel mills and ship building in Pakistan.

Iron ore can be purchased even China requires to purchase iron so it is not difficult.

Bhai .
I have been away from Pakistan for nearly 25 yrs. What I stated was in light of the situation as it stood in 2010 or before. At that time we did not have the facility. There was only one specialized steel unit in Pakistan which had been shut for a long time which the army was trying to revitalise. Iam glad to hear that there is move a foot to rectify the matter. However I would like to say that anti magnetic steel which is fairly specialized might not be manufactured in Pakistan and rolls may have to be acquired from st else where. There is an aspect where research is required. If you have updated knowledge I would be more than happy to learn.
Araz