$30bn deal: US to sell F-15s to Saudi Arabia

[Banglar Lathial]

Okay you speak some very valid points but however something remains. Let's talk about this from an economical point of view. Making a plane takes billions more Billions than those spent on the F-15 I love how some people say "You could have only spent 5 Billion to build an industry and saved the rest on Education" I Laugh so hard because all I can say is look how much the F-35 is costing how much the F-22 cost?? How much the Pak-FA and J-20 cost and that is just research. Who is going to keep our lines open or should we make the planes and then distribute them as charity?? Can you guarantee me that Muslims countries will buy??Can you guarantee me that Muslims countries would mot leave you with a weaker plane on your own and go for the much better Russian and American?? People just looooove to talk and talk and talk don't they??

You made some good points but allow me to disagree slightly. It would cost a little high at first because during research, you can not predict the outcome at all at first. Anything could happen. You may obtain the right answer very soon or it may take you dozens of years (just two extreme cases).

That is why I suggested that Gulf Arabs can play with/tinker with engines/avionics, etc in the aircrafts in your current inventory. You are right, other Muslim countries may backstab. There is no guarantee they will buy the planes designed for Muslims. That is why it would be wise to spend money on research and development, invite Muslim technicians, researchers, engineers from Egypt, Algeria, Malaysia, and elsewhere, and provide them with citizenship if needed. Since they are Muslims and most are Arabs, there would be very little problems with adding them to the country's population.

Now, even if other Muslim countries do not buy your aircraft, all Gulf Arabs combined can spend 50 or 60 billion US$ (let's say 200 billion saudi riyals ) over 6 or 8 years on developing your own Muslim designed plane. This plane can then be further developed to built next generation planes, and the costs for development in the next generation would be likely to be less. Egypt developed its Helwan-300 plane many years ago. But costs were a problem. You see, once all the technicians, engineers, politicians, money pours in, the Muslims have everything needed to build, design and produce world class fighter planes in 6 to 8 years, I hope.


If the Gulf Arabs then order, let's say 300 of these Muslim designed and built fighter aircrafts at first stage, it would be great for your own industry. If other Muslim countries join you, even better. If not, there is no loss. In the next stage, you can order more planes. Remember, Americans or Britons charge you/Gulf Arabs way more than any other buyer in the world because they know your kings have a lot of cash. And remember that Muslim engineers, technicians, from less developed countries but with a lot of scientists and researchers can be paid lower than Western salaries but higher salaries than their own countries. This means your aircraft can be developed at much lower costs than the Western planes.

I am just suggesting many possibilities to show how this project can be completed and how it can be successful if only all the six Gulf Arab countries (who have joint defense treaties) agree on the project. There is no need for other Muslim purchasers but if other Muslim countries buy the planes, that would be welcome.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The first time I knew of the issue between Gulf Arab & Iranians were once I was working and I came across this arab guy he looked at me and cursing for some unknown reason , later I found out he thought I was from Iran (this made was Northern Gulf states close to Israel)

To which I had to tell him no , I am not but it was fascinating , perhaps the divide is really so blinding that it sees no logic

Meanwhile I have met many Iranians have not seen them to feel negatively but for some odd reason , Arabs have a this "propaganda" which has trained them to dislike Iranians

I still have not been able to understand the issue except that in 70's Saudia and Arabs supported Iraq against war with Iran , and in which chemical weapons were used , so I understand Iranian's anger its completely understood but so far I don't understand Arab side of things

And as another Arab (African origin) stated that this issue is only a regional issue , and more likely influenced by "special interest groups"

 

[Manticore]

PLEASE DON'T POST ANY MORE OFF TOPIC STUFF

 

[Mosamania]

You made some good points but allow me to disagree slightly. It would cost a little high at first because during research, you can not predict the outcome at all at first. Anything could happen. You may obtain the right answer very soon or it may take you dozens of years (just two extreme cases).

That is why I suggested that Gulf Arabs can play with/tinker with engines/avionics, etc in the aircrafts in your current inventory. You are right, other Muslim countries may backstab. There is no guarantee they will buy the planes designed for Muslims. That is why it would be wise to spend money on research and development, invite Muslim technicians, researchers, engineers from Egypt, Algeria, Malaysia, and elsewhere, and provide them with citizenship if needed. Since they are Muslims and most are Arabs, there would be very little problems with adding them to the country's population.

Now, even if other Muslim countries do not buy your aircraft, all Gulf Arabs combined can spend 50 or 60 billion US$ (let's say 200 billion saudi riyals ) over 6 or 8 years on developing your own Muslim designed plane. This plane can then be further developed to built next generation planes, and the costs for development in the next generation would be likely to be less. Egypt developed its Helwan-300 plane many years ago. But costs were a problem. You see, once all the technicians, engineers, politicians, money pours in, the Muslims have everything needed to build, design and produce world class fighter planes in 6 to 8 years, I hope.


If the Gulf Arabs then order, let's say 300 of these Muslim designed and built fighter aircrafts at first stage, it would be great for your own industry. If other Muslim countries join you, even better. If not, there is no loss. In the next stage, you can order more planes. Remember, Americans or Britons charge you/Gulf Arabs way more than any other buyer in the world because they know your kings have a lot of cash. And remember that Muslim engineers, technicians, from less developed countries but with a lot of scientists and researchers can be paid lower than Western salaries but higher salaries than their own countries. This means your aircraft can be developed at much lower costs than the Western planes.

I am just suggesting many possibilities to show how this project can be completed and how it can be successful if only all the six Gulf Arab countries (who have joint defense treaties) agree on the project. There is no need for other Muslim purchasers but if other Muslim countries buy the planes, that would be welcome.

You are talking about tinkering?? and playing with the Aircraft to know how it works and stuff right?? How about if I tell you that our Tornados the new standard have been modernized in house with domestic Avionics and and electronic warfare suites?? Yeah that was this year we became able to do that which is a significant milestone if you ask me. Of course I made a thread about it nobody gave a damn because Iran made a screw and everyone was "OMG Iran is making weapons Oh OH Oh OOOOH OOOOOOh yess yess screw a screw in the parade OMG aaaaaaha aaaaaaah" this is exactly what I read.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

The Gulf has more resources then Algeria, Egypt and Libya combined. Algeria Libya and Tunisa have a Economic Union. My point is the Gulf has alot of resources and their money could have been spent better then on fancy cars and useless planes however it's not up to me so let them spend their money rather for the ummah.

By same logic, Gulf Arabs also have economic union, and thinking of a common currency which Egypt, Libya and Tunisia have not thought of yet (I may be wrong here, do not know as much about Tunisia, Libya and Egypt as the Gulf Arabs). Is there any common defense treaty amongst Maghreb Union countries? GCC countries allow their citizens to start businesses in any countries witout restrictions, no visa requirements, and so on. GCC is the strongest 'active' union in the Muslim world today.

That does not mean they have no faults. My point is most Muslim countries have some faults or the other, some mistakes or the other. GCC also made mistakes. Their rulers enjoy close relationships with the West/USA, same as Egypt/Tunisia/Algeria/Morocco/Turkey/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Indonesia/Malaysia/Kazakhstan etc.

 

[Mosamania]

PLEASE DON'T POST ANY MORE OFF TOPIC STUFF

Yeeeaah, It was off topic.. that is why it is deleted .

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

You are talking about tinkering?? and playing with the Aircraft to know how it works and stuff right?? How about if I tell you that our Tornados the new standard have been modernized in house with domestic Avionics and and electronic warfare suites?? Yeah that was this year we became able to do that which is a significant milestone if you ask me. Of course I made a thread about it nobody gave a damn because Iran made a screw and everyone was "OMG Iran is making weapons Oh OH Oh OOOOH OOOOOOh yess yess screw a screw in the parade OMG aaaaaaha aaaaaaah" this is exactly what I read.

But I read that the overhead to maintain Tornadoes is so large that even UK / British Airforces don't use this plane called Tornadoe due to its technical problems

 

[NeutralCitizen]

By same logic, Gulf Arabs also have economic union, and thinking of a common currency which Egypt, Libya and Tunisia have not thought of yet (I may be wrong here, do not know as much about Tunisia, Libya and Egypt as the Gulf Arabs). Is there any common defense treaty amongst Maghreb Union countries? GCC countries allow their citizens to start businesses in any countries witout restrictions, no visa requirements, and so on. GCC is the strongest 'active' union in the Muslim world today.

That does not mean they have no faults. My point is most Muslim countries have some faults or the other, some mistakes or the other. GCC also made mistakes. Their rulers enjoy close relationships with the West/USA, same as Egypt/Tunisia/Algeria/Morocco/Turkey/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Indonesia/Malaysia/Kazakhstan etc.

Agreed on that.

 

[Mosamania]

But I read that the overhead to maintain Tornadoes is so large that even UK / British Airforces don't use this plane called Tornadoe due to its technical problems

HAHAHA OMG are you serious?? really now?? are you for real? I am really asking here... OMG hahahaha I can not stop laughing. Aaaaah the Muslims world....How I petty thee...

 

[Banglar Lathial]

You are talking about tinkering?? and playing with the Aircraft to know how it works and stuff right?? How about if I tell you that our Tornados the new standard have been modernized in house with domestic Avionics and and electronic warfare suites?? Yeah that was this year we became able to do that which is a significant milestone if you ask me. Of course I made a thread about it nobody gave a damn because Iran made a screw and everyone was "OMG Iran is making weapons Oh OH Oh OOOOH OOOOOOh yess yess screw a screw in the parade OMG aaaaaaha aaaaaaah" this is exactly what I read.

Congratulations to Saudi Arabia. I congratulate Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Algeria, Malaysia, Indonesia, Sudan or any other member of OIC without bias for developments. Tinkering and playing with your aircrafts can be the first step. Next, you/Gulf Arabs need to design and develop your own engines, other components for the aircraft. Let's not stop at airforce only. Let's move on to Navy, ground forces, missiles and space sector.

I certainly congratulate and enjoy developments made anywhere in the Muslim world.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

But that is why UK invested in Euro fighters since they felt the Tornado craft was sub standard

I heard it had some problems with over heating (specially in desert environment) it was something mentioned after it few in Gulf war 1 , and later UK favoured investing in a new fighter jet (Euro fighters)

USA only gave freedom fighter prior to Gulf war 1 - since it did not trust Saudia with Israel around so while they got F16 Saudia was given Freedom Fighter plane which was a sub part fighter jet (well very light weight) compared to F16


The original F15 supply to Saudia was only done in order to fight against Saddam Gulf war 1
and even that fighter was "severely down graded" so it would not threaten Israel , and BVR was not an option on these Saudi fighters , meaning they had a disadvantage vs Israeli fighters

But Saudi R&D would be welcome thing provided they get into collaboration work with
Pakistan - Turkey - Iran - China

I think the day , Saudia can lay a claim that it invented something in its Universities as oppose to just buy something it would be a indeed wonderful news

 

[Mosamania]

But that is why UK invested in Euro fighters since they felt the Tornado craft was sub standard

I heard it had some problems with over heating (specially in desert environment) it was something mentioned after it few in Gulf war 1 , and later UK favoured investing in a new fighter jet (Euro fighters)

USA only gave freedom fighter prior to Gulf war 1 - since it did not trust Saudia with Israel around so while they got F16 Saudia was given Freedom Fighter plane which was a sub part fighter jet (well very light weight) compared to F16

But Saudi R&D would be welcome thing provided they get into collaboration work with
Pakistan - Turkey - Iran - China

I think the day , Saudia can lay a claim that it invented something in its Universities as oppose to just buy something it would be a indeed wonderful news

We have been operating F-5s since 1979.... Dude seriously all what you heard you need to dumb away. Man what the hell are they filling your head with?? Work on the Eurofighter started in the 80s waaaay before Gulf War1.... You seriously need to stop listening to Iranian media ASAP.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We have been operating F-5s since 1979.... Dude seriously all what you heard you need to dumb away. Man what the hell are they filling your head with?? Work on the Eurofighter started in the 80s waaaay before Gulf War1.... You seriously need to stop listening to Iranian media ASAP.

May be you should ask a question why you were never given F15 in 80's and just given F-5 , and now when world is getting F35 you are being sold F15 ... perhaps you might wake up and start smelling the coffee

But if you are happy man , and feeling good , I will not ruine your day , F15 is a wonderful plane if its used with certain training and tactics

But if it was me , considering France has bases in UAE, and USA is in Ethopia east of Saudia , and bases in Qater

I would be ordering

100 Sukhoi form Russia
50 J10A from China
70 F15

Just to have all grounds covered you never know , what the yankees will do tomorrow
one moment they claim to be your allies and next day you hear them say otherwise

Even Shah or Iran was given F14 , when things were ROSY ... !! :p THERE IS ALWAYS A LESSON IN HISTORY

 

[Mosamania]

May be you should ask a question why you were never given F15 in 80's and just given F-5 , and now when world is getting F35 you are being sold F15 ... perhaps you might wake up and start smelling the coffee

But if you are happy man , and feeling good , I will not ruine your day , F15 is a wonderful plane if its used with certain training and tactics

We have had F-15s since 1981......

Dude please. Stop Embarrassing yourself anymore. At least do a little research man....Just a little.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

Azadpakistan2009,
Saudi Arabia has been increasing its research efforts in the last few years at a rapid pace. Just take a look at the budgets of government universities like King Saud University, King Abdulaziz University, Imam Muhammad ibn Saud Islamic University, for example.