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200 LCA,50% of Rafale deal value will be invested in India: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

My point was specific to the two sets of figures which don't seem to square off well. Secondly, we are now told that around $ 200 million is cheap & that is supposedly the cost being paid by the French. What does that make the original MMRCA deal worth then? $25-30 billion? We have discussed this before, it was a bad deal then & remains so now. This is essentially a political decision, Funny that the UPA government had told the Americans that this was purely technical, not political, so they couldn't get in. Now we are back to a political call whether or not this government had a choice or not after the goof up before.

The figures without any details do not mean much. Its only fodder for more speculation.

The Original MMRCA deal was clearly an impossible choice for the govt. which is why it had to be re-looked and renegotiated. Again the actual values remain in the shadows, we can only make intelligent guesses based on circumstantial evidence provided in news reports.

The reasons for rejecting American goodies still remain and is unlikely to go away any time soon. So its pointless to discuss its future.

The only real choice was between Rafale and EuroFighter (as per Plan A). Of the two Rafale was reported to be cheaper, not to mention it had only one nation's strings attached to it.

Eurofighter was re-offered to us 20% cheaper, Rafale was negotiated at 25% cheaper. So it was really the only practical option.

However the exorbitant cost has ensured that only a much smaller number will make it to the IAF. IAF will just have to grow up and support LCA and AMCA to make up for the short falls.

LIVEFIST: GE Statement: F414-powered LCA’s Mission Superiority Enhanced With Indian Expertise

@ Nityam Reading your posts, you have hardly given any facts or a rationale for your points, have instead chosen to be personal and in bad taste. While it is your wish how you want to be, my suggestion is to not get personal or fanatical, present your points with proofs from open sources, or justify them with rationales, in case you want to be taken seriously. And on one more point of you trying to laugh at former air chief knowing less than the DM, bro, if you have been in the services, you will realize that there are capabilities with us that the DM is not aware of. There are few sections of the armed forces which report directly to the PM, and no one else. And sometimes it may happen that a colonel knows about something and the Chief is not aware of that at all. Indian security establishment is very well segregated and is compartmentalized. Just for your info

I find calling a spade a spade in good taste and form. Everything I have said is backed by rational and facts. Too bad you cannot understand them.

Are you seriously saying that the DM is not aware of the capabilities of our forces or that the forces keep secrets from the DM ?

Now take you own advice and provide proof from open sources if want to be taken seriously.

In any case, how is a certain exceptions in the rules relevant to the debate at hand ? You appear to suggest that the IAF has secretes needs for MMRCA which is Known only to the PM and not to the DM. All I can say is LOL.
 
Doubtful, because that's just a dream figure that does not include the production time, or even the development time for LCA MK2. The current order of 6 x LCA squads won't be delieverd before 2025, so do you honestly think IAF will order 4 to 6 more squads after that, or will they prefer FGFAs or AMCA to meet the threats of that time?

Which shows that they don't changed the requirement just for fun, but for operational reasons! Remember, IAF initially prefered the Mirage 2000, when the MRCA was meant to provide a gap filler that is fast to induct. But threats have increased and a decade has gone by, which is why IAF needs more capable fighter. So it's not about the number of engines, but the needed capabilities to provide IAF an edge for the next 30 years and there simply was no valid single engine option in the tender, nor is LCA anyway close to provide such capability.
A second production line will solve the delays. An airforce don't always need a world beating aircraft for air policing duties LCA is more than perfect for replacing MIG 21 duties ,period.
 
I really hope that 200 LCA number is actually, totally and entirely and factually true and not just LCA as air-frame, but its engine, avionics and weapons all be locally produced by India in India using Indian tech!

And its not a troll.. I really want India to fly a local machine. For God sake I am not asking for a moon!
 
I really hope that 200 LCA number is actually, totally and entirely and factually true and not just LCA as air-frame, but its engine, avionics and weapons all be locally produced by India in India using Indian tech!

And its not a troll.. I really want India to fly a local machine. For God sake I am not asking for a moon!

Bro I assure you the actual number is even higher than this if you include Mk.1 LIFT and N-LCA. And this number even more higher if in future IA plan to procure some fixed wing for CAS role.
 
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Pankaj Bora in Rajya Sabha today Informed Parliamentarians that first Squadron of 20 IOC standard aircraft is expected to be delivered by 2017-18. Efforts are underway to enhance the production capability.

Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) status for Tejas MK-1 aircraft was awarded on 20th December 2013 and first First Series Production Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has been handed over to Chief of Air Staff by Raksha Mantri on 17th January 2015.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar blamed Non-availability of infrastructure, test facilities, denial of technologies by the technologically advanced countries, change in specifications during development, lack of trained manpower in the country as some of the reasons for delay in completion of LCA project

IAF to get 20 Tejas MK-1 in 3 years: Parrikar | idrw.org

Large order of 200+ will surely take very long time (20yr +) unless
1. Significant Pace in enhancing production rate per year
2. Second line perhaps in private sector
 
TTP is not in list?

Pakistan's economy is audited by USA. It survives on american funding(and political support in UN by USA), otherwise pakistan would have died in 1965 itself. During every war and crisis, USA/UK/Australia have helped Pakistan. The new helpers of pakistan are scandinavian nations(Sweden's CIA unit leaked nuke blueprints). yes, china helps Pakistan too, but that help is to counter white-men's intervention in the region. We should be thankful to China for taking over TIBET in 1950's, otherwise White-men would have captured it and made airbases+armybases there by now and also hogging all natural resources there. Australia/West was captured similarly in last 4 centuries, by armed invaders from Europe. This cult is spreading everywhere, to grab resources and impose "dollar" regime(which keeps Africa poor due to trade/currency monopoly). Dalai Lama is merely a political stooge of white-men in the region, he is not some saint. He has rejected every offer of "talks" from China, because his american master will be angry if TIBET signed a permanent settlement agreement with China.

Large order of 200+ will surely take very long time (20yr +) unless
1. Significant Pace in enhancing production rate per year
2. Second line perhaps in private sector

Private sector has 0 know-how in Aircraft assembly. And i doubt heroin-smuggling thugs like parsi TATA will pay DRDO any "license free" for technology transfer. TATA has leaked lot of indian technologies(Bajaj Electric/Solar unit R&D) to its european maai-baap(funders of FDI) in past half century. The list of TATA's crime is endless. TATA(Ratan tata's daddy) wrote a letter to Rajiv Gandhi, to lobby for Mr.Anderson(Bhopal genocide bhagoda) and asked Rajiv to settle case(this letter is available on internet now). TATA also mentioned Rothschild as his friend in this letter.

I think Parrikar should fund new private firms, preferably some ownership from ex-BARC, ex-DRDO, ex-HAL types. Make new 20-30 startups and then grow them.
 
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Private sector has 0 know-how in Aircraft assembly. And i doubt heroin-smuggling thugs like parsi TATA will pay DRDO any "license free" for technology transfer. TATA has leaked lot of indian technologies(Bajaj Electric/Solar unit R&D) to its european maai-baap(funders of FDI) in past half century. The list of TATA's crime is endless. TATA(Ratan tata's daddy) wrote a letter to Rajiv Gandhi, to lobby for Mr.Anderson(Bhopal genocide bhagoda) and asked Rajiv to settle case(this letter is available on internet now). TATA also mentioned Rothschild as his friend in this letter.

I think Parrikar should fund new private firms, preferably some ownership from ex-BARC, ex-DRDO, ex-HAL types. Make new 20-30 startups and then grow them.
Capitalist hate is getting to your nerves uh?...
Btw who specified TATA here? mahindra,reliance all have the chance.
Also,You should note that all ToT we brought from outside is for the whole Indian Aviation Industry not a property of DRDO/HAL or any public sector for that matter.
 
I wud have gone for 100 rafale 100 typhoon and for single engine fighter 100 f 16 to suport tejs mk2.with tot..and this will b our last buy from foriegn and then on we can use the experience gain from tot to amca and fgfa..f16 is still hell of a deadly fighter specially than gripen ng..i am sayin f 16 block 60 not the pakis version of f16 if us allows tot thn only.so it will be like this
1. 100 rafale
2.100 typhoon
3.300 super su 30
4. 100 f16 60 blk
5. 200 tejas mk2 and 60 mk1 lift
7.150 fgfa(future)
8. 300 amca(future)
9. 50 mirage
10.60 mig 29..
All jaguar and mig older versiom will be out till thn..from f16 ,rafale, and typhoon .we can get lot of technologies if allowed by the repective companies.then rest of the future will b only fifth generation indian fighters only..i know this plan needs hell lot of money but if it fructifies thn china will b dead in airwarfare....also we need s-400 and 500 from russia to augment air defence with indian sam systems..since both david cameron and dassault are ready to produce typhoon and rafale in india.we should take the offer..and go for f 16 which is way better thn gripen ng..
 
These figures bother me a bit. The first part suggests that the deal is for $8 billion dollars, roughly around Rs.50,000 crores. Apart from the figure being a bit mind boggling, how does it square with "savings" of Rs. 60,000-65,000 crores? What is the definition of "savings" being used here? Non-purchase of the balance quantity of 90 aircrafts is considered as saving? Or that the normal cost for the 36 aircrafts would have been Rs.60,000-65,000 crores extra? Since that is obviously absurd, RM is referring to the unspent part which raises the question (apart from the definition of savings) - Rs.50,000 crores for 36 aircrafts but Rs.60,000-65,000 crores for the balance 90?


That's what @PARIKRAMA stated earlier too, the DM is making statements that doesn't add up and at the end it boils down to saving money only, if you get a clearly smaller order. I have some doubts about the figures though, since we know from the French Senat reports, that the flyaway cost for the French government is far lower.


I have some doubts about the figures of the speculated Kuwait order too, since even the costs for the US navy recently were higher than in the past and they come in flyaway condition. But for India they don't play any role, because they don't meet our technical and operational requirements in the first place. You can always pay less, if you are ready to get less in return, but that's not what we wanted. We had a specific requirement in mind and those, that suited them the most, were shortlisted and the one that was the most cost-effective of them was chosen and if the PM would had played it at least smart, he would had asked the Germans for a counter offer for 36 off the shelf fighters, to reduce the costs further. Now he can only reduce the costs of Rafale from what Dassault was asking, but that's possible only by getting rid of all the industrial benefits IAF and MoD worked so hard for, in the last decade. People have to understand that not party politics is important in this case, but that it's IAF and the Indian aviation industry, that suffers a great loss, if we don't get the 126 fighters and the MMRCA tender. If we buy 18 or 36, off the shelf is only a side note, welcomed but not important, but the benefits for IAF and the industry is the reason why we were ready to pay so much![/QUOTE]

@ Sancho : notwithstanding the tardy progress by HAL, the LCA mk2 will be inducted into the IAF. The problem was ToT for engine as Kaveri failed miserably, With the US agreeing to help India in critical fields of defence, the ToT for GE-F414 has been agreed to for mk2. The problem was the reconfiguration of mk2 to accommodate the bigger (and better) engine than GE-F404 which is integrated into the mk1.

I have no doubt that the MK2 will come sooner or later, but the speculations about 200 or more in numbers, simply doesn't hold it's own, when you keep the production time line in mind! That's where my concern is, because as much as we all love to see 200 LCAs being produced, it simply would be far too late for IAF to induct so many and because of the much changed threat potential, it also would be far too less to make IAF capable for the future.
Some members here knows, that I am all in favour for an indigenous single engine fighter in high numbers for IAF's future, but as AMCA not as LCA!
Keep producing LCA only because we can, would be the same mistake we did with Jaguars, which we kept popping out of the production lines till 2008, while their operational importance is already gone today. Therefor producing LCA beyond 2025, when it's operational importance is reduced by far, simply makes no sense.

Btw, I highly doubt that ToT of the engine had any importance, since we only get the assembly line to India, not a real licence production line if I remember correctly and sharing critical techs is the key problem with the US in every single licence production tender (LUH, ATGM, NMUH, MMRCA), not to mention the denial of consultancy or even off the shelf techs throughout the whole LCA development.
I still see NLCA as the main problem for the MK2 development, since most of the MK2 is developed according to the requirements of the navy for NLCA. That also can be seen in the recent brochures, where it's evident that NLCA needed far more changes to be useful, than the IAF MK2 version, which is far closer to the MK1.
If the naval requirements would not be included, we might had seen the MK2 with the EJ 200 engine, 3D TVC and the 0.5m extention of the airframe to include some more fuel tanks and avionics. That would had given IAF a better engine, more ToT for the industry and the MK2 might already be in prototype stage today.

A second production line will solve the delays. An airforce don't always need a world beating aircraft for air policing duties LCA is more than perfect for replacing MIG 21 duties ,period.

A second production line would only be set up when the MK2 is developed and for the MK2 production only, which still does not start before 2020 as it seems. We would get the 4 x MK2 squads a bit faster, but to reach 200 we still would need to produce them beyond 2025. So why would you waste a 2nd production line by then for LCA, instead of speeding up FGFA production instead? Or why not focus on developing AMCA till 2025 and start the production from the start with 2 production lines? Both alternatives would be better than keep a 4.5th gen light class fighter in production, in a time when the threats have changed.

And as always, LCA needs to be compared with other 4th to 4.5th gen light class fighter and the threat potential of India. It's not enough to say that it's small, has a single engine and is cost-effective, because none of this will make LCA superior to J10Bs.

I really hope that 200 LCA number is actually, totally and entirely and factually true and not just LCA as air-frame, but its engine, avionics and weapons all be locally produced by India in India using Indian tech!

And its not a troll.. I really want India to fly a local machine. For God sake I am not asking for a moon!

We will see around 200 LCAs for sure, but for IAF and IN, since we already have orders for around 180 fighters now. If we will see 200 LCAs in IAF, however is questionable.
 
Pakistan's economy is audited by USA.
Nice joke any more nonsense. Plz try to support your nonsense argument with some facts and figure and stats.

It survives on american funding(and political support in UN by USA), otherwise pakistan would have died in 1965 itself. During every war and crisis, USA/UK/Australia have helped Pakistan.

Yes we enjoy the support of our friends. If you have Any problem, better put some ice in your underwear to keep cool your burning ***.sss.

The new helpers of pakistan are scandinavian nations(Sweden's CIA unit leaked nuke blueprints). yes, china helps Pakistan too, but that help is to counter white-men's intervention in the region. We should be thankful to China for taking over TIBET in 1950's, otherwise White-men would have captured it and made airbases+armybases there by now and also hogging all natural resources there. Australia/West was captured similarly in last 4 centuries, by armed invaders from Europe. This cult is spreading everywhere, to grab resources and impose "dollar" regime(which keeps Africa poor due to trade/currency monopoly). Dalai Lama is merely a political stooge of white-men in the region, he is not some saint. He has rejected every offer of "talks" from China, because his american master will be angry if TIBET signed a permanent settlement agreement with China.

Are you mentally retarded by birth, or it happened afterward as you forgot to grow and get mature.
 
I really hope that 200 LCA number is actually, totally and entirely and factually true and not just LCA as air-frame, but its engine, avionics and weapons all be locally produced by India in India using Indian tech!

And its not a troll.. I really want India to fly a local machine. For God sake I am not asking for a moon!

With time & regular updatation its certainly possible. But building an local high thrust engine will be very difficult to achieve learning from the Kaveri project.

I wud have gone for 100 rafale 100 typhoon and for single engine fighter 100 f 16 to suport tejs mk2.with tot..and this will b our last buy from foriegn and then on we can use the experience gain from tot to amca and fgfa..f16 is still hell of a deadly fighter specially than gripen ng..i am sayin f 16 block 60 not the pakis version of f16 if us allows tot thn only.so it will be like this
1. 100 rafale
2.100 typhoon
3.300 super su 30
4. 100 f16 60 blk
5. 200 tejas mk2 and 60 mk1 lift
7.150 fgfa(future)
8. 300 amca(future)
9. 50 mirage
10.60 mig 29..
All jaguar and mig older versiom will be out till thn..from f16 ,rafale, and typhoon .we can get lot of technologies if allowed by the repective companies.then rest of the future will b only fifth generation indian fighters only..i know this plan needs hell lot of money but if it fructifies thn china will b dead in airwarfare....also we need s-400 and 500 from russia to augment air defence with indian sam systems..since both david cameron and dassault are ready to produce typhoon and rafale in india.we should take the offer..and go for f 16 which is way better thn gripen ng..

Now thTs what I call a wishful Wishlist. :lol: :lol:
Add 100 F22 from my side too. :enjoy:
 

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