Winner of MRCA: time to place ur bets

[sancho]

Agreed, the original IAF requirement is for a single engine multi-role fighter. Recall how the Mirage had to be urgently retrofitted for operations in Kargil. The IAF has since learnt its lesson and upgraded existing hardware to deliver precision munitions but it is abundantly clear to win a war you need to systematically destroy the adversary's ability to make or sustain war. This means destroying enemy infrastructure and logistics on the ground, A2A capability is secondary to A2G role for the MRCA acquisition.

Crazy to buy the super expensive EF or Rafale. The IAF does not need air dominance fighters.The MKI is more than enough for any need.What they need is Air to ground attack crafts. The Mig 27 and Jags are pretty useless now. I mean after Kargil where these aircraft could not even work properly and the Mirages saved the day,it would be criminal not to get a dedicated Air to Ground aircraft.

Kind of interesting that you both point out the same points (that I agree on too), but don't come to the obvious conclusion!

- IAF does not need another A2A fighter
- mainly A2G performance is important, A2A only secondary
- Mirage experience from Kargil is the key that shows, where IAF lacks behind

So if these points are the most important and the Mirage was the best choice then, wouldn't the Rafale as its successor, be the obvious and logical choice?

Rafale is not an air superiority fighter, it lacks mainly in radar range in this field compared to MKI, F15, or EF for example, but it still offer good VWR and BVR capabilities. In A2G it belongs to the best in the competition and it offers similarites to the Mirage and will use exactly the same weapons that the upgraded Mirages will use too.
So just by logic and with those things you guys pointed out, it would be not surprising if Rafale would be IAF choice, although the US fighters are not bad at all.

Btw, the initial competition was not about single engine fighters (Mig 29SMT was in the competition too), but about light to medium weight multi role fighters and the Mirage was prefered from IAF.

 

[Sunny FOXGLOVE]

Hey u guys, I wanna say dat Saab Gripen NG is not d best choice for IAF. Its max payload & takeoff weight, fuel capacity, Weapons load & Power-plant is not so impressive n soon or later LCA tejas will fulfill its necessity. Also it has no thrust vectoring.
F-16IN is like out of date 4.5 gen aircraft n soon US wil play their old trick n so wid F/18 E/F. Also US is not interested in giving full ToT in Super Hornet.
MiG-35 is better choice due 2 MiG facilities in India n its performance is awesome wid full ToT, but every1 wants change in IAF which is full of aging MiG planes.
Rafale max speed is 1.8 mach n rate of climb is less than EF n MiG-35. Also it has service ceiling less than EF. Its weapon load is best but has no thrust vectoring... But anyway it can compete n has d ability 2 win dis tender.
But d new Eurofighter Typhoon which include thrust vectoring nozzles wid d Typhoon's EJ200 engines can outrun any fighter in dis tender.... It is equipped with d Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar n if Typhoon wins d contract, India is invited to becum a partner of d Eurofighter Typhoon programme.
Its costly but u cant get sumthg great, widout spending sumthg. EF is best fit 4 IAF.

 

[Kompromat]

Why separate thread?

Ignorance----

 

[sam27]

I think now the MODS will be praying for quick result of MMRCA tender cas the amount of threads that are opened up is just mind boggling. These issues have been discussed several times. Pls don't open a new thread.

 

[fatman17]

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010


Jane's Defence Weekly


Indian Air Force to submit fighters' trial report by the end of July

Rahul Bedi JDW Correspondent - New Delhi

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is expected to submit its exhaustive trial report on six rival fighters competing for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement to the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) by the end of July.

Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN, the Russian Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG are all competing for the 126-aircraft MMRCA tender - worth an estimated INR420 billion (USD9.33 billion) - which IAF sources indicate could eventually increase to 200 aircraft.

The air force is now anxious for the MoD to clinch the MMRCA deal by 2011.

The IAF plans to induct the first MMRCA by 2014 to bolster its depleting fighter squadrons, which total around 32 - significantly less than the sanctioned strength of 39.5 squadrons.

 

[KS]

All's fair in love and war..isnt that the line??

Even better line - Never Ever betray ur friends.

And as Jha said In case of war even Russia will allow us to build planes even if it exceeds the contract limit..

p.s.: In todays war ,even before we complete a Flanker the war will be over..

This is not the WW-II era where war streches for 5 years..

 

[!!craft!!]

guys i dont understand why people are going for euro fighter... well it is a beast we all agree. but it lacks air to ground capabilities...

 

[Hindustan Fighter]

My vote is for Gripen IN.
And i truly believe it will be hot favorite to win the competition, only if we assume that the political influence does not major impact on the result of the final result.
reasons,
- Very technologically advanced platform with relatively low life cycle cost as compared to other major competitors such as rafale, Typhoon, SH and Mig-35.
- Much more flexibility on the choice and mix of weapons package on offer.

Also if it is assume that political influence will impact result then I believe that F-16IN will be have a chance above Gripen IN.
I thing people here are highly underestimating the capability of F-16 specially the variant offered to us i.e. Super Viper. Lockhead Martin had been repeatedly saying that it will be further evolution of Block -60 and will includes the technologies from 5th generation fighters F-35 and F-22. Also it will as good as SH in multi role capability (including air to ground) but also will be low on maintenance cost and operating cost then the former.
I also do not buy the argument that India will not go for F-16 because PAF is having it. Guys it is not in the airframe but what's inside it i.e. state of art technologies. PAF may have mastered F-16 A/B but Bock-52 are completely different beast and PAF have just began to receive it and they will take time to learn their best use.
Also Super Viper much more advanced than PAF's MLU and Block 52's that will help us to maintain the technological edge over them.

 

[ejaz007]

One small question. All bids have bid validity.

Any one knows when bid validity of these bids is going to end?

Has MOD asked any company to extend bid validity recently?

 

[indushek]

Hey after reading about Super Hornet's recent development about internal weapons load and stealthy features my vote goes for it. I want it to win. Let the Yaanks give 50% TOT but that would be one helluva weapon platform for us.

 

[soaringphnx]

One small question. All bids have bid validity.

Any one knows when bid validity of these bids is going to end?

Has MOD asked any company to extend bid validity recently?

The validity of the earlier bids submitted by the six contenders for the USD 11-billion 'mother of all deals' had ended in March this year.

The tenders issued in August 2008 had received bids from six global fighter jet manufacturers including EADS in March 2008 and the bids were valid for two years.

The commercial bids -- specifying the price of the aircraft, after-sales support, maintenance support and spares -- were yet to be opened.

Since the bids had expired in March, the Defence Ministry returned the commercial bids back to the companies and asked them to either submit a revised documents with revised prices or to resubmit the existing tenders by extending its validity.

Source:

EADS to bid afresh for multi-role combat aircraft in India

Hope this helps.

 

[flanker143]

and guys please dont compare gripen with tejas.

??????????

 

[soaringphnx]

guys i dont understand why people are going for euro fighter... well it is a beast we all agree. but it lacks air to ground capabilities...

I agree with you completely. It may be the better than most in air-to-air combat, but even the Gripen has a better strike capability. Why go for Typhoons when we already have Su-30MKIs? I think the Rafale or F-18SH offer the IAF just what they want - a superb strike platform which fares well in air-to-air combat as well. I voted for the Rafale.

 

[Ras]

Kind of interesting that you both point out the same points (that I agree on too), but don't come to the obvious conclusion!

- IAF does not need another A2A fighter
- mainly A2G performance is important, A2A only secondary
- Mirage experience from Kargil is the key that shows, where IAF lacks behind

So if these points are the most important and the Mirage was the best choice then, wouldn't the Rafale as its successor, be the obvious and logical choice?

Rafale is not an air superiority fighter, it lacks mainly in radar range in this field compared to MKI, F15, or EF for example, but it still offer good VWR and BVR capabilities. In A2G it belongs to the best in the competition and it offers similarites to the Mirage and will use exactly the same weapons that the upgraded Mirages will use too.
So just by logic and with those things you guys pointed out, it would be not surprising if Rafale would be IAF choice, although the US fighters are not bad at all.

Btw, the initial competition was not about single engine fighters (Mig 29SMT was in the competition too), but about light to medium weight multi role fighters and the Mirage was prefered from IAF.

The Rafale is just too damn expensive...plus it cannot compete with the Super Hornet in air to ground operations. None of the other planes in the competition can.

India needs to get over her paranoia regarding America.

 

[sancho]

The Rafale is just too damn expensive...plus it cannot compete with the Super Hornet in air to ground operations. None of the other planes in the competition can.

India needs to get over her paranoia regarding America.

Hehe, of course it's in Americas interest if India gets over it, but with our experience, it's better to be carful and independent, instead of slipping into another dependency.

True, the F18SH offers the best capabilities in A2G role of the contenders, but right behind it comes the Rafale, with better performances in other roles and that's its big advantage, to be more balanced in different roles than any other fighter! Even the French offer is also the most balanced in various fields (ToT, source codes, no restrictions, sanction proof, customisation with Indian techs, or weapons, fast delivery of Rafales if we want, operational carrier version, commonality with present IAF fighters, exellent experience with Mirage 2000...).

The best for IAF is the fighter and the offer, that suits at best between MKI/LCA and gives the most advantages, not only some advantages in specific fields. Be it F18SH with best A2G, or EF with best A2A performances, but both lacks in other areas.
However, at the end it could be a political decision and if it will be a US fighter, I hope for F18SH, but generally the Rafale must be the way to go for India!