Why they hate China

[Tiki Tam Tam]

So what. The main point that you are missing here is that Musharraf has always been supporting the WOT, its all about the newgovernment now. Have you missed the article posted in the same thread about NS saying that we will not gurrantee the freeedom of the west at the cost of our own. US needs to define the WOT. And PPP will not be able to do anything alone without the consent of their parthners the PML-N. Understood.

Should we not cross the bridge when we come to it?

Where did NS run in the Kargil War?

Mars?

Let him put his money where his mouth is.

Already the new govt is saying they are all for WoT, NS and all rolled in one!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

First of all you need to have an attitude adjustment. Learn some manners before telling others to be rational.
Let me put it straight to your face and in simple english so that you can understand and understand well before coming out with this BS of yours about human rights violations in china.
China maynot be an angel when it comes down to human rights but no one is. What china did, you did it worst in kashmir and other indian parts, with muslims in Gujrat, demolishing mosques(babri mosque), killing and burning priests alive,churches ransacked and killing the sikhs just shows somewhat of howmuch india is protecting the freedom in the name of its so called secularism.
And since you are very much fond off quoting your newly developed friend, let me remind you that US has the worst reptuation when it comes down to the humanrights, from vitenam to afghanistan and then iraq all round the world they have openly teared the very basic foundations for humanrights. Just because they are a sole superpower or just because you have a desire for the western military stuff should not put a blind fold on to your eyes to understand the difference.

Even though this post is not addressed to me.

Why cant you answer without getting all het up and being totally bogus in content?

 

[IceCold]

Should we not cross the bridge when we come to it?

Where did NS run in the Kargil War?

Mars?

Let him put his money where his mouth is.

Already the new govt is saying they are all for WoT, NS and all rolled in one!

I guess you are pretty much underestimating what has happened this time in the elections while i can only explain it you, its still you who has to decide how much of the content you can absorb. As for the Kargil war, donot derail the thread, i can reply to it but simply put it out of the context. As for putting his money where his mouth is, we will know it pretty soon. Already today the foreign office has strongly condemn the statement from the CIA chief and rejected it.

 

[IceCold]

Even though this post is not addressed to me.

Why cant you answer without getting all het up and being totally bogus in content?

You seem to ignore how your fellow countrymen addressed me when he said to back off. Understand the basic meaning of what debate means and then quote someone. It stands for both of you.

 

[IceCold]

I find it extraordinary that you claim and imply that under President Musharraf, Pakistan was NOT a democracy and instead was under martial law!!!!

In the last few years, even in this forum, all one learnt that Pakistan was a democracy! Do tell me that the Pakistanis who claimed so were wrong. Further, were you amongst those who felt that Pakistan was NOT a democracy? Have you any posts to indicate so or revolt under President Musharraf rule?

You really perplex and confuse others by vacillating like a weather vane.

Make up your mind if Pakistan was NOT a democracy and that it was Martial Law!!

To defend a friendly country, one need not condemn one's own country!

As far as telling others what should be their form of govt, I agree with Gen Musharraf. I don't think he was against the basic freedom of man. Indeed, he wasn't. He opened up Pakistani society and he opened up transparency by allowing private media!!

Are you a subscriber to the idea that men should be under bondage and not have the benefit of transparency?

Show me any links to any criticism of the Chinese govt in the Chinese State controlled media.

You have failed to do so.

In Indian and Pakistan we have hosts of problems about media reports it.

Is that better or is it better to be fed news that do not expose the warts in society so that all are aware and can reform society?

Let me put it this way! Musharraf being the armychief and the president of pakistan, is it democracy according to the standards of West? Can a military ruler also be the head of the country? Answer these simple questions for me.
Pakistanies thinking or not thinking it is democracy does not matter, since we are talking about the west in paticular the US incontext with china.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

First of all you need to have an attitude adjustment. Learn some manners before telling others to be rational

Thanx , but no thhanx, read what reply you had give me and for what I had asked you to be rational, I was expecting a proper reply and not one liners and unrelated thoughts.

Let me put it straight to your face and in simple english so that you can understand and understand well before coming out with this BS of yours about human rights violations in china.

Yup the world is bull shittin except for China and you.

China maynot be an angel when it comes down to human rights but no one is

No maybe or maynot be she is gross suppressor of human rights and free spirit.

What china did, you did it worst in kashmir and other indian parts, with muslims in Gujrat, demolishing mosques(babri mosque), killing and burning priests alive,churches ransacked and killing the sikhs just shows somewhat of howmuch india is protecting the freedom in the name of its so called secularism.

Shows that there is a lot of law and orer problem faced by the country and nothing else. India is secular in public sphere but in no where in our constitution or our government it is stated that one should be secular in opinions or personell thoughts, that my friend is called free country.

And since you are very much fond off quoting your newly developed friend

No one is a friend or enemy in this world it is about who facilitates your goals

PS: you did not reply to my post egarding US standing by you when you were in need

let me remind you that US has the worst reptuation when it comes down to the humanrights, from vitenam to afghanistan and then iraq all round the world they have openly teared the very basic foundations for humanrights

They have their home clean before lecturing others, It is insane to expect warfighters to behave like Gandhi, war is brutal and people get killed in war , I cant do about anything if you think war is fought throwing flower balls.

Just because they are a sole superpower or just because you have a desire for the western military stuff should not put a blind fold on to your eyes to understand the difference.

Nations have a responsibility towards thieir citizens and are required to keep thieir house in order , as far as I see US has allowed its citizens to have freedom and free spirit. When Iraqis are allowed to play ive times a day , Id say they are far better off then Tibetians.

You seem to ignore how your fellow countrymen addressed me when he said to back off. Understand the basic meaning of what debate means and then quote someone. It stands for both of you.

I wxpected a better reply from you rather then the one liners you had posted. I enjoyed debating with you however it requires ones part to take the initiative to post something and to find that the reply was an illogical one liner, it really pisses off people. That said I should have not used back off here , I had used it in a moment of haste and I APOLOGISE, rest I stand by what I said

 

[IceCold]

Development does not mean all is well. Statistics are only approximations and extrapolations and not the reality.
The fact that though there was development in Pakistan and people were not happy, indicates the strength of Pakistan.
If Pakistan had been a Communist country, none would have been wiser that Pakistanis were not happy since the State controlled media would belch statistics to show that all is well and life was a Paradise!!
The fact that Pakistan has a free society and a democracy was the reason why the people found good reasons to feel unhappy inspite of the development. And what is best, they were allowed to express their unhappiness at the elections and that is why you and I and everyone know that people of Pakistan were not happy. Isn’t that better than suppressing thought even if it is good for governance?
Or do you subscribe to living under the, for the want of a better word, boot?
China developed because the people were happy, as you say. You also admit that under Musharraf Pakistan developed. The, pay, why do you say that the Pakistanis were unhappy? Why did they not vote for Musahrraf’s people? Rather odd is your analogy! You do have a convoluted logic!!!

True, everyone can see the difference between North Korea and China. I was only debunking your idea that no protest means happiness!! You should read more carefully and not hector me that I don’t!!.
The difference is that we pay for what we get from any country. Therefore, even there you go wrong.
Like it or not, we are not a booming economy, but we survive without largess from anyone and what is more we are buying up prestigious industries from the West – the very same West who were our rulers once!!! Great progress, but not good enough!

India was not promoting anything in East Pakistan. I have been on this forum for long enough and I have found that Islam and Islamic Brotherhood is a strong and powerful sentiment that transcends nationality or boundaries. If that were so, how is it that your Moslem brother of Bangladesh played into the hands of Indians, as you claim? Are you suggesting that Islam and Islamic Brotherhood are that weak? And that it is only a fantasy that you are reveling in to delude yourselves?
I don’t think Islam is that weak! It is merely finding an excuse to cover up the impossible. I, too, would think that it was impossible since Islam is a strong religion. Is it not time to realise the real truth how the West Pakistanis shoved the East Pakistanis into a corner wherein they did what they did? Why hunt for excuses? Of course India seized the opportunity? I won’t be an ostrich or be pigheaded to deny it, even if you do.

Pakistan was no police state and never was in its whole history. It was controlled at times but never a police state! If you hated Musharaf why did you not say so? What made you demur? I have seen nothing to indicate you hated the Musharraf regime. In fact, if I remember, you were a cheerleader!

Changing your spots now that Musharraf is down?

Bla......Bla....Bla....Bla
Let me put it short for you. You twisted my logic to suit your agenda. DOesnt suprise me at all.After all it can be expected from Mr.Salim. Now coming back to your post, i said that pakistan developed the most in musharraf's era, yet people could not appreciate the fact and so it was cleary shown. My point is that if the same could be hold true for china according to your logic, why is that chinese people who have gone through worst rebellions thorough out their history, still after passing of almost three generations could not understand that they are being held hostage, they could do much better without communism and with democracy. The reason is simple they are doing much much better with it. There is no need for this democracy BS, neither do the chinese are stupid like we pakistanies are to sell their *** out for $. They understood this fact long before and that is the reason, china is now a developed nation and we are not and are at the same place we started with sixty years ago and that is what exactly bothers the US. Because they now see once again as communism being the enemy as was the case with Russia.
Now i will reply to the last part of your post about me hating musharraf. Where did you get this impression from? I was a strong supporter of musharraf then and am now, my point that you twisted and i have answered it in my previous question, i am not talking about from pakistanis point of view. I am talking from US point of view and i have asked a few questions from you in my previous post, hope you'll be man enough to answer them and not change it to best suit your agenda.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Let me put it this way! Musharraf being the armychief and the president of pakistan, is it democracy according to the standards of West? Can a military ruler also be the head of the country? Answer these simple questions for me.
Pakistanies thinking or not thinking it is democracy does not matter, since we are talking about the west in paticular the US incontext with china.

What stops anyone from any profession to become the President of a democracy?

I think most of the US Presidents had military service.

Dwight Eisenhower was a 5 star General, who led the Invasion of Normandy, and he was a President of the US.

The only thing is that one has to be elected.

Wasn't General Musharraf elected?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Bla......Bla....Bla....Bla
Let me put it short for you. You twisted my logic to suit your agenda. DOesnt suprise me at all.After all it can be expected from Mr.Salim. Now coming back to your post, i said that pakistan developed the most in musharraf's era, yet people could not appreciate the fact and so it was cleary shown. My point is that if the same could be hold true for china according to your logic, why is that chinese people who have gone through worst rebellions thorough out their history, still after passing of almost three generations could not understand that they are being held hostage, they could do much better without communism and with democracy. The reason is simple they are doing much much better with it. There is no need for this democracy BS, neither do the chinese are stupid like we pakistanies are to sell their *** out for $. They understood this fact long before and that is the reason, china is now a developed nation and we are not and are at the same place we started with sixty years ago and that is what exactly bothers the US. Because they now see once again as communism being the enemy as was the case with Russia.
Now i will reply to the last part of your post about me hating musharraf. Where did you get this impression from? I was a strong supporter of musharraf then and am now, my point that you twisted and i have answered it in my previous question, i am not talking about from pakistanis point of view. I am talking from US point of view and i have asked a few questions from you in my previous post, hope you'll be man enough to answer them and not change it to best suit your agenda.

Nothing is blah blah blah in my post. At least I don't see it, Maybe you could tell. And it is Blah not Bla (just to inform since the incorrect spelling is used by many)!

I accept that Pakistan developed but the voters did not show their appreciation. If you read you earlier post, you cannot fault me in what I wrote. Now, since you have been exposed, you are changing tack as smoothly as a fox!

Pakistan's form of govt cannot be compared to Chinese form of govt. Pakistan is an open society and the Chinese are not.

There is no need for this democracy BS, neither do the chinese are stupid like we pakistanies are to sell their *** out for $.

I interpret this that you are calling Pakistani stupid.

Heavens, is money or having an industry happiness when you are prevented to air your views as in China? Is disagreeing with govt means being sent to a re-education labour camp is your idea of happiness?

If it were so, and you were in China and not Pakistan, you would have been sent to a Re-education Labour Camp for stating that Musharraf is a military dictator and Pakistan was not a democracy as soon as you posted that post!!

Possibly you would have found true happiness there and not here posting posts (sic!)!

Do forgive me, your post affects my sensibilities that a person can damn his own country to support a foreign nation.

 

[IceCold]

Nothing is blah blah blah in my post. At least I don't see it, Maybe you could tell. And it is Blah not Bla (just to inform since the incorrect spelling is used by many)!

So i missed the h part big deal! funny it is you could not understand that if i could write the first three letters correct, i could add H in it as well.

I accept that Pakistan developed but the voters did not show their appreciation. If you read you earlier post, you cannot fault me in what I wrote. Now, since you have been exposed, you are changing tack as smoothly as a fox!

First of all its track and not tack! You need to check your spellings as well before telling others too. Now coming back to your reply, i am being exposed, exposed of what? I know very well what i wrote and i very well know how you twisted it and the very same reason i explained it in my post that donot twist and distort my post.

Pakistan's form of govt cannot be compared to Chinese form of govt. Pakistan is an open society and the Chinese are not.

Really! very nice of you to figure that out.

I interpret this that you are calling Pakistani stupid.

You can interpret whatever the hell you want, will not change anything. I said pakistanies sell their *** cheap and no doubt they do that. Any pakistani here will agree with that. Do you think if we havent been doing that, would we be at the same place even after sixty years are gone by.

Heavens, is money or having an industry happiness when you are prevented to air your views as in China? Is disagreeing with govt means being sent to a re-education labour camp is your idea of happiness?

If it were so, and you were in China and not Pakistan, you would have been sent to a Re-education Labour Camp for stating that Musharraf is a military dictator and Pakistan was not a democracy as soon as you posted that post!!

Possibly you would have found true happiness there and not here posting posts (sic!)!

And you think indians having no food to eat but still they have democracy to fill up their stomachs or their wives&childrens, that might be true happiness for you. My God Mr.Salim how low can you go for proving your point.

Do forgive me, your post affects my sensibilities that a person can damn his own country to support a foreign nation.

No I am not damning my own country, i do not like someone from outside to question my loyalty to my country and my nation, and i would have just easily ignored your last line, but thats the ******* second time you questioned it. I do not need to prove you anything as far as my loyalty is concerned or for that matter to anyone who thinks otherwise. You are entitled to your opinion and you can make one about me whatever you like, i dont give a 2 centt crap about it.
Have a good nite.

 

[IceCold]

What stops anyone from any profession to become the President of a democracy?

I think most of the US Presidents had military service.

Dwight Eisenhower was a 5 star General, who led the Invasion of Normandy, and he was a President of the US.

The only thing is that one has to be elected.

Wasn't General Musharraf elected?

Having military service is something else. Even Bush has one, i said that being the head of the army and being the president at the same time is this a democracy or not by the standards of the west. Dont give me crap, reply to what i asked if you can otherwise dont bother to waste my and your time.

 

[IceCold]

Thanx , but no thhanx, read what reply you had give me and for what I had asked you to be rational, I was expecting a proper reply and not one liners and unrelated thoughts.

I know what reply i gave it to you and nowhere it disrespected you personally. And by the way i still stand by what i said, why is that only indians are raising their voice for the chinese. Are you telling me that chinese are ignorant fools that they themselves cant do the same!

Yup the world is bull shittin except for China and you.

Nope! not the world. West and in paticular the US (because Europe follows US) and india doesnt make it the whole of the world.

No maybe or maynot be she is gross suppressor of human rights and free spirit.

Look who's talking.

Shows that there is a lot of law and orer problem faced by the country and nothing else. India is secular in public sphere but in no where in our constitution or our government it is stated that one should be secular in opinions or personell thoughts, that my friend is called free country.

The same could be said about china as well! facing law&order problem

No one is a friend or enemy in this world it is about who facilitates your goals

PS: you did not reply to my post egarding US standing by you when you were in need

Yes! indeed it is all about facilitating each other's goal and that is what exactly you are doing, you dont give a **** about tibet's rights being so called suppressed, its all about mutual interest yours(india) and the US to destabilize china and that too when olympics are being hosted by china.
Whats egarding? Atleast learn to spell correct before expecting a reply.

They have their home clean before lecturing others, It is insane to expect warfighters to behave like Gandhi, war is brutal and people get killed in war , I cant do about anything if you think war is fought throwing flower balls.

Yes they have their home clean but at the cost of others. And even in warfare POW have rights too if you happen to know.Besides it wasnt the war alone i was talking about, just look at the jails and toture centers in iraq where open humanrights violations were done in the name of protecting freedom and liberating iraqi people from Sadam.

Nations have a responsibility towards thieir citizens and are required to keep thieir house in order , as far as I see US has allowed its citizens to have freedom and free spirit. When Iraqis are allowed to play ive times a day , Id say they are far better off then Tibetians.

Yes nations have a responsibilty towards their citizens and china too is doing a very good job unlike india where people sleep empty stomach, chinese people are much much better and live in a much better living conditions then anyone in india with all of their so called democracy and secularism will ever.

I wxpected a better reply from you rather then the one liners you had posted. I enjoyed debating with you however it requires ones part to take the initiative to post something and to find that the reply was an illogical one liner, it really pisses off people. That said I should have not used back off here , I had used it in a moment of haste and I APOLOGISE, rest I stand by what I said

So my reply pissed you off! Like i care. If it does next time dont bother to quote me. There is something called ignore, use that. Afterall to understand my post you need to be above 18 to be least.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Having military service is something else. Even Bush has one, i said that being the head of the army and being the president at the same time is this a democracy or not by the standards of the west. Dont give me crap, reply to what i asked if you can otherwise dont bother to waste my and your time.

Too bad, you have exposed your true colours.

Now, you want to weasel out.

I cannot have regards for a person who condemns his country to support a foreign country,

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

know what reply i gave it to you and nowhere it disrespected you personally

Thanx I know you did not intend to do so.

And by the way i still stand by what i said, why is that only indians are raising their voice for the chinese. Are you telling me that chinese are ignorant fools that they themselves cant do the same!

Did we start threads blaming the Chinese. As far as I see it is only Chinese and Paksitanis who are startingg threads all over the place over fear, paranoia or a lack of self confidence.

Nope! not the world. West and in paticular the US (because Europe follows US) and india doesnt make it the whole of the world.

Prove me an instance where India has officially targetted Chinese or our officials have condemed the Chinese.

Again for the n th time watch the news and listen to the threats laid by Sarko and Merkell.

Also West is the world that China wants to impress and thump its chest, you seriously think they will be doing it to gain respect among poor african countries and asian ones.So it mattrs a lot what the west thinks about China for the Chinese.

The same could be said about china as well! facing law&order problem

No, one in India dictates the terms in which I live or serve pious platitudes and advice as to what I should do. I am free to move and live anywhere or migrate to any place without a permit, I can choose to be a lazy bone or work hard to be successful person. I have a choice and I am free to exercise it above all no one asks me to shut my mouth up and that my friend is what is called free spirit and that is called free country.

Yes! indeed it is all about facilitating each other's goal and that is what exactly you are doing, you dont give a **** about tibet's rights being so called suppressed, its all about mutual interest yours(india) and the US to destabilize china and that too when olympics are being hosted by china.

Again provide proof of Indian government's stand. I only wish our government has the balls to do what you are claiming.

Whats egarding? Atleast learn to spell correct before expecting a reply

Nitpicking and trying to make others look small. good one

And even in warfare POW have rights too if you happen to know.Besides it wasnt the war alone i was talking about, just look at the jails and toture centers in iraq where open humanrights violations were done in the name of protecting freedom and liberating iraqi people from Sadam.

What can the Americans do if Shias and Sunnis slaughter each other. Regarding Jails any one with some sense of fairness shall say Guantanamo is the fiver star of Jails.Yes Americans do violate certain norms as no one is perfect , but the point is being better in relative terms rather then in absolute one.

unlike india where people sleep empty stomach, chinese people are much much better and live in a much better living conditions then anyone in india with all of their so called democracy and secularism will ever.

I worked two seasons for UNICEF and UNDP. India is projected to achive a majority of its MDG. China was in a much more worse position when you compare our current stage of economic develolment to their time period. Poverty amellioration is taking place in the form of an exponential graph rather then a steady time series line.

Also if you have the chance talk to UN personell who have doen their tour in China. China has a tendency of skewing statistics and they shall tell you how difficult it is to perform proper monitoring and evaluation.

So my reply pissed you off! Like i care. If it does next time dont bother to quote me. There is something called ignore, use that. Afterall to understand my post you need to be above 18 to be least

Know what, do read my post before replying.

I am 18 and above and I am not going to engage in a mud slinging contest with you

 

[IceCold]

Too bad, you have exposed your true colours.

Now, you want to weasel out.

I want to weasel out or is it you who cant answer a simple question without laying out such nonsense. Do you think that being an ex military and on service duty are the 2 same things? Go learn about the basic principles about democracy before coming out and start ranting again.

I cannot have regards for a person who condemns his country to support a foreign country,

Like i give a damn about it. I dont need your approval over my loyalty towards my country.