Why they hate China

[indiapakistanfriendship]

How do i know? read the chinese history, when people were not happy, were suppressed by the feudal lords, then again by the britishers, how the revolution took place and how the people supported it that changed the face of china. Three generations you say, believe me if three generations werent happy, we might have seen another of what we saw back in the days

The Chinese people wer tired of constant conflicts and afte Mao came to power, it was too late for one to expect any revolution because unlike free democracy there is no such thing as free thouht in a totalitarian regime, people are fed on constant propaganda and are forced to accept definitions of happyness set by the authorities, Once Mao took power he made sure that there were no such thing as free thinking, a huge danger to any ttalitarian regime.

However that said, there were sparks of revolution culminating in Tianamen square and sqaurely crushed by tanks, reminding people that there will be no tolerence of free spirit.

And why not! they are from china, who better could tell then they. Besides not all are internet fanboys. They have creditability

I know ethnic CHINESE from various forums, who are no fan boys and are neither biased in their views, they are more credible then the ones lurking here with one liners, homilies and mud slinging.

It was a mistake when we decided to go to US instead of russia. Then again we had no choice but to get in cooperation with the US during the soviet afghan war. HOwever that was a mutual interest then that we shared but as for now things are changing

Yes it was a mistake, mistake on the US to have alliance with such unloyal friends. For Petes sake those guys sent the 7th fleet during 1971 in aid of you , had the Soviets not sent their nuclear submarine they would have attacked us on behalf of you, that says alot about friendship , better then China who never raised a finger on behalf of you in any of the wars you fought. It was US who covertly supplied you with arms and ammunition in wars long before the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. They helped you maintain technology and conventional parity with Indian until recently, so stop playing the victim card.

Musharraf government distanced it self from the US and so we started to hear all this nonsense about democracy, building institutions, and what not, the pressure to hold elections. However the US plan backfired and now they seem even more worried then before. The new government is a colation government and there isnt much they would be able to unlike what US wants them too. The FRO or maybe its FCO i'm not sure its r or c anyways but has already being lifted up from the tribal area and the tailban have announced they are stoping all activities within pakistan. Where is the US now? We will stop them this time and for good. They have already done enough damage to the whole world in the name of WOT

you seriously belief that Nawaz or Zardai will distance themselves from the US, they are at best reactions to please the home crowd and nothing else, their survival and funding and support comes from the US, what do you expect them to declare that they will allow US to opeate freely, wake up .

Now i wouldnt say merely numbers, they are ahead in every field, obiviously its the numbes after all that we look at, otherwise how would have you stated that china is behind the US?

Ahead in every field? what fields. Their economy mainly depends on exports, exports of outsourced products whose manufacturing and technology base takes place outside their country, that makes them a workshop and nothing else. Yes I said China is behind the US because US has built the technology, scientific, economic and political foundation, foundations that are not easily built in one day and mere supplying of cheap labour, copying technology will not take them to the level as US.

I am in noway underestimating the power of the US, however the fact that you are neglecting here is that numbers are catching up very fast and this is what has really upset the US.

Any country worth its salt will be concerned in the rise of China, but however Chinese economy is very much dependent on the US and the west rather then the other way round. I cant see one Chinese institution worth its name in the global arena.When one day as slowly capitalism seeps in they will realise that they have failed to build enterprises and institutions that compete along global standards.

And as for the economy, there is a term called nuclear blackmailing now that is not what you think it is, consider this what happens if china decides to change its reserves from dollar to say euro? I'll let you figure the answer to that

Thanx, I Know this long befor you assume that I knew and it has been ebated to death.

Trillion dollars cannot be simp[ly converted into euros, ONLY IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS. Dollar is seeped too much into european financial institution that they will not simply help China and in the proces acur loss.

If China goes to such a measuer, equallent to a nuclear weapon what makes you think that the US wiil not simply nullify the debt. Chinese hold them in bonds and if the need arises the US has the means and capability to cancel them and I am sure they are apable of such a thing.

Even assume you are right, then US economy goes into recission and dollars value falls leading to global financial crisis, then what happens to Chinas already devalued yuan and to whom would they export ?

Not the world. Its US the primarily while india joining the league. Just yesterday europe has dismissed the call for boycotting the oylumpics ceremony by the human rights orgainsations

Did US say it will boycott the OLYMPICS? Read what Angella Merkell and Sarkosy had to say , whcih is more then enough.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

According to who?

Do indicate any protest mentioned in the Chinese media.

Indeed, if there is no protest, it means either a police state or that country is Heaven.

Select any one of the above.

NortKorea is more like a kingship then communism, a hell of a differece of between the two countries and the living standards of both.

Heard of any protest there in North Korea?

It must also be a Paradise, right?

And how did you know people's POV? Did anyone here from the pakistani side said we support Chechnyia? Did you hear a statement about Bosnia from our side? Yes we support both kashmir and palestine. And whne it comes to china not support but all western BS goes out of the window.

Of course Pakistanis do not support Chechnya or Bosnia and yet there are ******* who are at the wrong end of the stick. After all, they are still a power to reckon with and Pakistan is collaborating to obtain technology. One does not bite the hand that feeds, goes an English proverb.

Correct me if wrong wasnt it india who was openly supporting the mukibinnas gurellias, wasnt indra gandi preparing for an all out war with pakistan?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was Pakistan which created the conditions. if India did so, then you were a bit silly since you played into the hands of India. Therefore, the stupidity is not of India's doing.

Only friends which serve best interests. Globalised rather biased western world i would say.

Like eating your cake and having it too!

They werent even considerd biased at the first place.

Really?

Ohh really! too much of BBC and CNN and timesweek is bad for the health. What happens to your facts when it comes down to pakistan? Do we have an extremist government? Is our the nuclear weapons faliing into the wrong hands or in the hands of extremists?, have the army not paid the cost for this WOT? Reality check for you, we lost more number of soilders then any other country and we captured more number of top AQ terrorist then any country ever did. We made the UK terror plot unsuccessfull. I'm sure you have never ever heard of this from any western media and i dont have to give you a reason for that. Still you want us to have some believe in it when they say Tibet is being suppressed. Give me a break here.

Don't believe.

No one is forcing you to believe.

Pakistan is not a police state like China.

You are entitled to have an opinion that may not be that of the media or the govt either!


Freedom. That is what there is in Pakistan. Learn to appreciate it.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Musharraf government distanced it self from the US and so we started to hear all this nonsense about democracy, building institutions, and what not, the pressure to hold elections. However the US plan backfired and now they seem even more worried then before. The new government is a colation government and there isnt much they would be able to unlike what US wants them too. The FRO or maybe its FCO i'm not sure its r or c anyways but has already being lifted up from the tribal area and the tailban have announced they are stoping all activities within pakistan. Where is the US now? We will stop them this time and for good. They have already done enough damage to the whole world in the name of WOT

Here is your answer:

Pakistan's new PM vows commitment to fighting terror

1 day ago

ISLAMABAD (AFP) — Pakistan's new Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said Saturday fighting terrorism would be his government's top priority, but offered to negotiate with those who renounce violence and give up weapons.

In his first policy statement since securing unanimous backing of MPs in the 342-member lower house of parliament, Gilani termed terrorism the biggest threat to his nuclear-armed nation.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i02XgRHQKl-pAg8Q-FSc9XQ0rWrw

War on terror to continue till its logical end: Musharraf

* Pakistan and Bosnia agree to expand cooperation in areas of mutual interests

RAWALPINDI/ ISLAMABAD: A handful of terrorists would not be allowed to hold the whole nation hostage, and the war against extremism and terrorism would continue till its logical end, President Pervez Musharraf said on Monday.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[Malang]

And how did you know people's POV? Did anyone here from the pakistani side said we support Chechnyia? Did you hear a statement about Bosnia from our side? Yes we support both kashmir and palestine. And whne it comes to china not support but all western BS goes out of the window.

Not official, but I have seen some forums where Pakistanis supported Chechnya and Bosnia besides Palestine and Kashmir... I believe many (British?) Pakistanis participated in the Bosnian crisis of the early 90s..

 

[Logic note]

Salim,
my friend, I was really surprised by the way you think, about anything.
It seems that, or at least you make it seems that, you know history very well. About Tibet, and even The TianAnMen square.

Yes unfortunately , except Chinese citizens , rest of the world understands Tibet and Tiananmen square massacre .

But there's a very important question, do you my sir know how can a country, especially China this so large country, get development and performs well through its history??
You may viewed many details about china's history, and you may know the diference between those time and now!

Pingfeng .. during those days , every country was suffering with wars, invasion , poverty and imperialism , so using the past to justify your barbaric regime is futile

Assume , your country ,Pakistan is always invaded and intervened by others, you land are alway being attacked and in danger (it is the very fact, yes?), you have the right to CHOOSE?

Firstly, our country is India not Pakistan and our country was attacked looted and ravaged more then any other country in the world , because India was always one of the richest civilization , still we choose democracy and freedom of expression of individual .

Chinese know that China must be strong, or will be insulted, so it will not allow any depart and riot

So does every nation

TianAnMen square, a riot managed by few person with special political motivation and acted by many cheated student, is harming the nation's development, the basic interests of the whole china. IT should be Suppressed

Tiananmen Square was a legitimate revolution by few courageous individual . they asked for their right to choose their leaders and their right to express their opinion freely .
Can you explain me , how will these demand harm China and its development ?
The strongest and richest Countries are democratic and have free Press .

IT is necessary loss CONCERNING THE WHOLE HISTORY!
Get some knowledge about the whole situation , be reponsible for your whole nation's interest!!

Wish you could come out of your small pond to see the Eternal Sky .

You are such a poor person of a small country!

We feel pity for such an arrogant and hollow slavery of mind

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I find it strange that you would say such a thing?
What would your reaction be if foreign journalists stop reporting from Kashmir and Palestine?
India (and Pak) were victims of colonial rule and since Pak so passionately fights for the cause of Kashmiris, Palestinians, Chechens and Albanians?, it behoveth Pakistanis to support Tibetans and Uighyurs too.. or is it when it comes to China all fundamentals go out the window?

What reaction? They have already stoped doing so. And palestine by the way is always shown as an aggressor and terrorist when is comes to israel. So what exaclty are you stating here. And when did we fight for the chechens, i think you are suffering from a shortage of memory, the pakistan president made i very clear during his visit to russia that chechnya is an internal matter of russia. What about Albanians? Kashmir is an altogether different story, its a disputed terrority and a UN resolution is already in place which by the way India is denying altogether.

Icecold,

I find it amusing that you state that the world media has stopped publishing news about Kashmir or Palestine!

It shows how much you can invent to help you struggle to justify!

This very forum has news about Kashmir.

From where did they get the information if it were not reported in the media, both Indian and International?

 

[IceCold]

The Chinese people wer tired of constant conflicts and afte Mao came to power, it was too late for one to expect any revolution because unlike free democracy there is no such thing as free thouht in a totalitarian regime, people are fed on constant propaganda and are forced to accept definitions of happyness set by the authorities, Once Mao took power he made sure that there were no such thing as free thinking, a huge danger to any ttalitarian regime.

Ohh please! it seems as if indians have even more problem then the chinese themselves have.

However that said, there were sparks of revolution culminating in Tianamen square and sqaurely crushed by tanks, reminding people that there will be no tolerence of free spirit.

And was the same not done with Sikhs in india. Operation Blue star, does it ring any bell. How can you criticize someone when the very same pratice is done by you guys as well and are still doing.

I know ethnic CHINESE from various forums, who are no fan boys and are neither biased in their views, they are more credible then the ones lurking here with one liners, homilies and mud slinging.

Only those who share the same views are acceptable, rest all dismissed as Internet fan boys. lol nice logic to differentiate.

Yes it was a mistake, mistake on the US to have alliance with such unloyal friends. For Petes sake those guys sent the 7th fleet during 1971 in aid of you , had the Soviets not sent their nuclear submarine they would have attacked us on behalf of you, that says alot about friendship , better then China who never raised a finger on behalf of you in any of the wars you fought. It was US who covertly supplied you with arms and ammunition in wars long before the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. They helped you maintain technology and conventional parity with Indian until recently, so stop playing the victim card.

Having such strong emotions for the newly made friend. Seems like friendship will go a long way.

you seriously belief that Nawaz or Zardai will distance themselves from the US, they are at best reactions to please the home crowd and nothing else, their survival and funding and support comes from the US, what do you expect them to declare that they will allow US to opeate freely, wake up .

No! not seriously but defentinately. Personaly i doubt their commitment, however like i mentioned in my previous post that you did not read well before commenting, i said they would not be able too, i havent said they wont, i said they would not be able too and the reason behind this statement of mine is that since they are a colation government with noone having a definite majority over the other and hence are not able to perform an independent government, they would not go far against the public wishes because each party both the PML-N and PPP will try to get a 2/3 majority in the next election, while PML-N is not the majority party in this election, they could still defend their position, the difficult decision will come for the PPP.

Ahead in every field? what fields. Their economy mainly depends on exports, exports of outsourced products whose manufacturing and technology base takes place outside their country, that makes them a workshop and nothing else. Yes I said China is behind the US because US has built the technology, scientific, economic and political foundation, foundations that are not easily built in one day and mere supplying of cheap labour, copying technology will not take them to the level as US.

Yes true US developed technologies, but the fact is that chinese are catching up fast in every field, just look at the defence sector for instance, while you guys still feel proud about the LCA which is by the way nowhere near to induction in the armed forces, the chinese J-10 is. Now you can argue that it is still behind what the US or west has to offer and i can agree with it, point i am trying to make here is that within a decade they will be able to produce equally sofisticated, hightech military equipment as the west does. As far as copying the technology is concerned, every country even the US itself has copied to some extent. Remember the first operational Jet fighter was made by the germans which was then transfered to the UK and from their the US made it and perfected it to break the sound barrier for the first time. So US was the first country that did so but they were not the first to develop the technology, it were the germans. Got the point.



[/QUOTE]Any country worth its salt will be concerned in the rise of China, but however Chinese economy is very much dependent on the US and the west rather then the other way round. I cant see one Chinese institution worth its name in the global arena.When one day as slowly capitalism seeps in they will realise that they have failed to build enterprises and institutions that compete along global standards.


Thanx, I Know this long befor you assume that I knew and it has been ebated to death.

Trillion dollars cannot be simp[ly converted into euros, ONLY IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS. Dollar is seeped too much into european financial institution that they will not simply help China and in the proces acur loss.

If China goes to such a measuer, equallent to a nuclear weapon what makes you think that the US wiil not simply nullify the debt. Chinese hold them in bonds and if the need arises the US has the means and capability to cancel them and I am sure they are apable of such a thing.

Even assume you are right, then US economy goes into recission and dollars value falls leading to global financial crisis, then what happens to Chinas already devalued yuan and to whom would they export ?[/QUOTE]

In short if this wasnt the case, hiliary clinton would have felt no need to say she will free the US economy from this blackmailing.

Did US say it will boycott the OLYMPICS? Read what Angella Merkell and Sarkosy had to say , whcih is more then enough.

It was boycotting the olympic ceremony and not the olympics and By the way US does want to bring a bad name to china but it does not want to be alone in it, it wants the world to follow it which by the way havent happen except of india and that we expect as to why.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Icecold,

How is it that Indians have more problems than the Chinese as far as free thought is concerned?

That is indeed a very ‘wise’ observation, though totally unlettered.

There is a slight difference between the Tiananmen Square and Op Bluestar. Tiananmen Square had unarmed people and Bluestar was against terrorists in fortified position. Something like what is scenario of the Forts in Waziristan and the Lal Mazjid.

No, the others are not Internet fan boys. But, you should be more observant. It was only after the Tibet fiasco and rumblings over the Olympics that there was a sudden descent on the fora and blogs of the Chinese Communist boys. Rather interesting what? Where were they before this? Why this sudden interest? Why all the vociferous debate suddenly when the issues were there for years and they did not show their face.

It is all because there is a genuine fear that the Olympics China has showcased as coming of age, is up for the grabs with all this negative publicity of pollution, Tibet, Xingjian et al and that there was a need to ‘educate’ the world. The unfortunate part is that Communism cannot be justified in a world of democracies of various shades. More so, when Communist China has many skeletons in the cupboard worse than others to include the manner how Communism came into being in Communist countries, their purges by their leaders to remain in power and as the Hero of the Revolution of the Toiling Masses etc, apart from having a police state and controlled media to maintain secrecy over activities in their part of the world.

And their worst Achilles heel is that China has rejected Communism and have embraced the anathema of Mao and Communism, which they reviled and did not hesitate to condemn at each step – Capitalism. To add insult to injury, this anathema and reviled economic philosophy is the sole support for the progress that they are showcasing while Communism only brought miser and despair to them! They have now been forced to eat their words!

By conceding that Nawaz Sharif and Gilani are not serious about their resolve to not follow Musharraf’s policy of befriending the US in its WoT, you are merely indicating that the election was just a farce and more to embarrass Musharraf. Are you serious that costly elections are to embarrass leaders in power? Can you give reasons as to why NS and Gilani will are the faces of the same coin? Are you suggesting that these two political persona will follow Musharraf’s policy, which they had rejected with the CJ and the lawyers revolt as their proxies, except for cosmetic brushing to appease the awam?

The Opening and Closing ceremonies of the Olympics are the political showcasing and they are as important in the political nuance as the Games are to the athletes. Therefore, boycotting the ceremonies by political leaders is a slap in the face!

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Ohh please! it seems as if indians have even more problem then the chinese themselves have

Back off, you I had replied to you based on rationale on the point you had put forward, if you cant reply to it then never mind replying , stop posting one liners and craps.

And was the same not done with Sikhs in india. Operation Blue star, does it ring any bell. How can you criticize someone when the very same pratice is done by you guys as well and are still doing

Yes in how can I forget that the protesters in Tianamen were holed up with dangerous weapons, don't start of with bollocks , do you even have any idea or understand what is the difference between a peaceful protest and millotants holed up in a religious institutios. Compare the protests for Chowdry and the action taken by your government on Lal masjid, you shall find the answer, but then I NEVER EXPET YOU TO BE RATIONALE.

Only those who share the same views are acceptable, rest all dismissed as Internet fan boys. lol nice logic to differentiate

Nope , I reafd the views of OOE and a few chinese in WAB , say whatever you want I shall listen to them rather then the fanboys lurking here who have nothing but stupid one liners and lots of Pakitan and Chinese flags in their posts. you want to listen to their gaga words you are free to do so .

Having such strong emotions for the newly made friend. Seems like friendship will go a long way.

Look who is talking. However I based my arguments in this case on facts and refute them if you can instead of posting one liners. We are stooges of none, maybe friends yes and why not we do share the same values of freedom, democracy and free spirit.

No! not seriously but defentinately. Personaly i doubt their commitment, however like i mentioned in my previous post that you did not read well before commenting, i said they would not be able too, i havent said they wont, i said they would not be able too and the reason behind this statement of mine is that since they are a colation government with noone having a definite majority over the other and hence are not able to perform an independent government, they would not go far against the public wishes because each party both the PML-N and PPP will try to get a 2/3 majority in the next election, while PML-N is not the majority party in this election, they could still defend their position, the difficult decision will come for the PPP

Shos that you are blind to reality, you seriously think that they will stop all their covert operations, had you r politicians had such guts your country would have been way ahead in all respects, heck Musharaff couldnt do it despite being a strong man with a conviction , I am surprised that you expect these people to stand up to the US. If you still want to clap hands for their populist announcements and crowd pleasing antics go ahead.

Yes true US developed technologies, but the fact is that chinese are catching up fast in every field, just look at the defence sector for instance, while you guys still feel proud about the LCA which is by the way nowhere near to induction in the armed forces, the chinese J-10 is. Now you can argue that it is still behind what the US or west has to offer and i can agree with it, point i am trying to make here is that within a decade they will be able to produce equally sofisticated, hightech military equipment as the west does. As far as copying the technology is concerned, every country even the US itself has copied to some extent. Remember the first operational Jet fighter was made by the germans which was then transfered to the UK and from their the US made it and perfected it to break the sound barrier for the first time. So US was the first country that did so but they were not the first to develop the technology, it were the germans. Got the point.

The Chinese are a determined lot and theyinducted the plane because they preferred national development over others and they did not have choice excepts for russian fighters. If the plane was such a stud why did they continue the local production variant of SU30 ie J11 even after J10 has been inducted. The point is that they just inducted it before it can be matured and our guys here wait till every specs are fulfilled . LCA is on path to induction and prove me otherwise with government reports . That said the technology growth cycle can be rapid upto a point till you grasp teh basics whcih form a good 60% of tech growth but however after that there comes a point where the growth level can be painstakingly steep it is that point of inflexion that I am talking about.

That said what makes you think that the western world will stop and wait for the Chinese to catch up with them you are assuming that the development cycle in the western world will the stagnant. Heck US IS RETIRING a fleet of stealth fighters when we havent even come close to building one .

In short if this wasnt the case, hiliary clinton would have felt no need to say she will free the US economy from this blackmailing.

What do you expect her to say , I will cancel all the bonds and make Chinese look like stupids, I think you need to take courses in public diplomacy . Dont expect such cheap antics from the western world, however you can find a lot of them in south asia, Rabble rousing all day long including India.

It was boycotting the olympic ceremony and not the olympics and By the way US does want to bring a bad name to china but it does not want to be alone in it, it wants the world to follow it which by the way havent happen except of india and that we expect as to why.

George Bush clearly stated that he shall attend the Opening ceremony of the Olympics. Except India? Again go read what Europeans had to say.

 

[IceCold]

Interesting point on the protest that you raised.

If Pakistan was a totalitarian regime and foreigners and international journalists were not allowed or the media was State controlled, as in China, then none would know about the Lal Mazjid, sectarian violence, Balochistan or FATA. Pakistan would appear to be a great place.

But then Pakistan is not a totalitarian regime and is instead a democracy.

You got to be kidding me. first you need to get your facts straight before quoting against my post after post for your argument sake. FIrst of all pakistan was not a democracy then. Why because the president was also an army chief. It is true that what he did, no other leader ever did specially with the media, however this again justify my point of what i am trying to state here is that though musharraf being from the army, pakistan developed the most, was never the case in democracy, same is with china in communism. What you and the west needs to stop doing is telling others what to do. By the way Musharraf stated so as well, west needs to stop seeing others with their style of the system, if it is successfull in the west doesnt necessarily means it will be in the rest of the world. He particulary gave the example of china,how they understand pakistan's position.

[/QUOTE=]Do you think that the Chinese media would report that the Army surrendered to the terrorists without firing a shot? The Pakistan media did.[/QUOTE]

FIrst of all like i said get your facts straight before quoting my posts. It was not the army but a paramilitary force. You being from the army should know it better before quoting every now and then.

 

[IceCold]

Do indicate any protest mentioned in the Chinese media.

Indeed, if there is no protest, it means either a police state or that country is Heaven.

Select any one of the above.

Not necessarily! the development there is enough to prove you wrong. By the way development does not happen if people are against it. For example pakistan was developing the most with musharraf in place, however people were not happy with him and so he could not achieve any objectives whatso ever. For instance the kalabagh dam. If people would not have been happy, china could never have developed the way it is developing and that too at a steady pace.

Heard of any protest there in North Korea?

It must also be a Paradise, right?

Every one with an eye can see the clear difference between the two countires in development.

After all, they are still a power to reckon with and Pakistan is collaborating to obtain technology. One does not bite the hand that feeds, goes an English proverb.

Same can be said about india as well. The newly developed friendship, india would need to show what truly it worths for.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was Pakistan which created the conditions. if India did so, then you were a bit silly since you played into the hands of India. Therefore, the stupidity is not of India's doing.

Really what conditions? Wasnt india sponspering terrorism in pakistan, if pakistan did not do what it had then, the war was still inevitable as far as Indra gandi was concerned, all pakistan did was to retaliate pakistan choose to pre-emptive strike, but no way were the conditions made by pakistan, it was india who did so and make pakistan got engage first in their proxy war and then a full scale war.

Like eating your cake and having it too!

Whatever

Don't believe.

No one is forcing you to believe.

Pakistan is not a police state like China.

You are entitled to have an opinion that may not be that of the media or the govt either!


Freedom. That is what there is in Pakistan. Learn to appreciate it.

Pakistan was also considered a police state, but due to US strong interest in Musharraf, he was allowed to continue, by the way this also shows the double standards of the US, because musharraf was serving the interests of the US in WOT, US was supporting musharraf, but as soon as he started to distance himself, the cry for democracy in pakistan and the humanrights violations and pakistan being the most dangerous nation in the world could be heard all round the west in paticular the US. Rules should apply the same to everyone whether it serves the purpose or not.

 

[IceCold]

Here is your answer:

So what. The main point that you are missing here is that Musharraf has always been supporting the WOT, its all about the newgovernment now. Have you missed the article posted in the same thread about NS saying that we will not gurrantee the freeedom of the west at the cost of our own. US needs to define the WOT. And PPP will not be able to do anything alone without the consent of their parthners the PML-N. Understood.

 

[IceCold]

Back off, you I had replied to you based on rationale on the point you had put forward, if you cant reply to it then never mind replying , stop posting one liners and craps.



Yes in how can I forget that the protesters in Tianamen were holed up with dangerous weapons, don't start of with bollocks , do you even have any idea or understand what is the difference between a peaceful protest and millotants holed up in a religious institutios. Compare the protests for Chowdry and the action taken by your government on Lal masjid, you shall find the answer, but then I NEVER EXPET YOU TO BE RATIONALE.



Nope , I reafd the views of OOE and a few chinese in WAB , say whatever you want I shall listen to them rather then the fanboys lurking here who have nothing but stupid one liners and lots of Pakitan and Chinese flags in their posts. you want to listen to their gaga words you are free to do so .



Look who is talking. However I based my arguments in this case on facts and refute them if you can instead of posting one liners. We are stooges of none, maybe friends yes and why not we do share the same values of freedom, democracy and free spirit.



Shos that you are blind to reality, you seriously think that they will stop all their covert operations, had you r politicians had such guts your country would have been way ahead in all respects, heck Musharaff couldnt do it despite being a strong man with a conviction , I am surprised that you expect these people to stand up to the US. If you still want to clap hands for their populist announcements and crowd pleasing antics go ahead.


The Chinese are a determined lot and theyinducted the plane because they preferred national development over others and they did not have choice excepts for russian fighters. If the plane was such a stud why did they continue the local production variant of SU30 ie J11 even after J10 has been inducted. The point is that they just inducted it before it can be matured and our guys here wait till every specs are fulfilled . LCA is on path to induction and prove me otherwise with government reports . That said the technology growth cycle can be rapid upto a point till you grasp teh basics whcih form a good 60% of tech growth but however after that there comes a point where the growth level can be painstakingly steep it is that point of inflexion that I am talking about.

That said what makes you think that the western world will stop and wait for the Chinese to catch up with them you are assuming that the development cycle in the western world will the stagnant. Heck US IS RETIRING a fleet of stealth fighters when we havent even come close to building one .



What do you expect her to say , I will cancel all the bonds and make Chinese look like stupids, I think you need to take courses in public diplomacy . Dont expect such cheap antics from the western world, however you can find a lot of them in south asia, Rabble rousing all day long including India.



George Bush clearly stated that he shall attend the Opening ceremony of the Olympics. Except India? Again go read what Europeans had to say.

First of all you need to have an attitude adjustment. Learn some manners before telling others to be rational.
Let me put it straight to your face and in simple english so that you can understand and understand well before coming out with this BS of yours about human rights violations in china.
China maynot be an angel when it comes down to human rights but no one is. What china did, you did it worst in kashmir and other indian parts, with muslims in Gujrat, demolishing mosques(babri mosque), killing and burning priests alive,churches ransacked and killing the sikhs just shows somewhat of howmuch india is protecting the freedom in the name of its so called secularism.
And since you are very much fond off quoting your newly developed friend, let me remind you that US has the worst reptuation when it comes down to the humanrights, from vitenam to afghanistan and then iraq all round the world they have openly teared the very basic foundations for humanrights. Just because they are a sole superpower or just because you have a desire for the western military stuff should not put a blind fold on to your eyes to understand the difference.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You got to be kidding me. first you need to get your facts straight before quoting against my post after post for your argument sake. FIrst of all pakistan was not a democracy then. Why because the president was also an army chief. It is true that what he did, no other leader ever did specially with the media, however this again justify my point of what i am trying to state here is that though musharraf being from the army, pakistan developed the most, was never the case in democracy, same is with china in communism. What you and the west needs to stop doing is telling others what to do. By the way Musharraf stated so as well, west needs to stop seeing others with their style of the system, if it is successfull in the west doesnt necessarily means it will be in the rest of the world. He particulary gave the example of china,how they understand pakistan's position.

[/QUOTE=]Do you think that the Chinese media would report that the Army surrendered to the terrorists without firing a shot? The Pakistan media did.

FIrst of all like i said get your facts straight before quoting my posts. It was not the army but a paramilitary force. You being from the army should know it better before quoting every now and then.[/QUOTE]



I find it extraordinary that you claim and imply that under President Musharraf, Pakistan was NOT a democracy and instead was under martial law!!!!

In the last few years, even in this forum, all one learnt that Pakistan was a democracy! Do tell me that the Pakistanis who claimed so were wrong. Further, were you amongst those who felt that Pakistan was NOT a democracy? Have you any posts to indicate so or revolt under President Musharraf rule?

You really perplex and confuse others by vacillating like a weather vane.

Make up your mind if Pakistan was NOT a democracy and that it was Martial Law!!

To defend a friendly country, one need not condemn one's own country!

As far as telling others what should be their form of govt, I agree with Gen Musharraf. I don't think he was against the basic freedom of man. Indeed, he wasn't. He opened up Pakistani society and he opened up transparency by allowing private media!!

Are you a subscriber to the idea that men should be under bondage and not have the benefit of transparency?

Show me any links to any criticism of the Chinese govt in the Chinese State controlled media.

You have failed to do so.

In Indian and Pakistan we have hosts of problems about media reports it.

Is that better or is it better to be fed news that do not expose the warts in society so that all are aware and can reform society?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

[

Not necessarily! the development there is enough to prove you wrong. By the way development does not happen if people are against it. For example pakistan was developing the most with musharraf in place, however people were not happy with him and so he could not achieve any objectives whatso ever. For instance the kalabagh dam. If people would not have been happy, china could never have developed the way it is developing and that too at a steady pace.


Every one with an eye can see the clear difference between the two countires in development.



Same can be said about india as well. The newly developed friendship, india would need to show what truly it worths for.

Really what conditions? Wasnt india sponspering terrorism in pakistan, if pakistan did not do what it had then, the war was still inevitable as far as Indra gandi was concerned, all pakistan did was to retaliate pakistan choose to pre-emptive strike, but no way were the conditions made by pakistan, it was india who did so and make pakistan got engage first in their proxy war and then a full scale war.


Whatever


Pakistan was also considered a police state, but due to US strong interest in Musharraf, he was allowed to continue, by the way this also shows the double standards of the US, because musharraf was serving the interests of the US in WOT, US was supporting musharraf, but as soon as he started to distance himself, the cry for democracy in pakistan and the humanrights violations and pakistan being the most dangerous nation in the world could be heard all round the west in paticular the US. Rules should apply the same to everyone whether it serves the purpose or not.

Development does not mean all is well. Statistics are only approximations and extrapolations and not the reality.
The fact that though there was development in Pakistan and people were not happy, indicates the strength of Pakistan.
If Pakistan had been a Communist country, none would have been wiser that Pakistanis were not happy since the State controlled media would belch statistics to show that all is well and life was a Paradise!!
The fact that Pakistan has a free society and a democracy was the reason why the people found good reasons to feel unhappy inspite of the development. And what is best, they were allowed to express their unhappiness at the elections and that is why you and I and everyone know that people of Pakistan were not happy. Isn’t that better than suppressing thought even if it is good for governance?
Or do you subscribe to living under the, for the want of a better word, boot?
China developed because the people were happy, as you say. You also admit that under Musharraf Pakistan developed. The, pay, why do you say that the Pakistanis were unhappy? Why did they not vote for Musahrraf’s people? Rather odd is your analogy! You do have a convoluted logic!!!

True, everyone can see the difference between North Korea and China. I was only debunking your idea that no protest means happiness!! You should read more carefully and not hector me that I don’t!!.
The difference is that we pay for what we get from any country. Therefore, even there you go wrong.
Like it or not, we are not a booming economy, but we survive without largess from anyone and what is more we are buying up prestigious industries from the West – the very same West who were our rulers once!!! Great progress, but not good enough!

India was not promoting anything in East Pakistan. I have been on this forum for long enough and I have found that Islam and Islamic Brotherhood is a strong and powerful sentiment that transcends nationality or boundaries. If that were so, how is it that your Moslem brother of Bangladesh played into the hands of Indians, as you claim? Are you suggesting that Islam and Islamic Brotherhood are that weak? And that it is only a fantasy that you are reveling in to delude yourselves?
I don’t think Islam is that weak! It is merely finding an excuse to cover up the impossible. I, too, would think that it was impossible since Islam is a strong religion. Is it not time to realise the real truth how the West Pakistanis shoved the East Pakistanis into a corner wherein they did what they did? Why hunt for excuses? Of course India seized the opportunity? I won’t be an ostrich or be pigheaded to deny it, even if you do.

Pakistan was no police state and never was in its whole history. It was controlled at times but never a police state! If you hated Musharaf why did you not say so? What made you demur? I have seen nothing to indicate you hated the Musharraf regime. In fact, if I remember, you were a cheerleader!

Changing your spots now that Musharraf is down?