Why Pakistan Airforce needs to make its own medium weight fighter

[LKJ86]

we should develop good trust with Russia then we thinks for big ticket items from Russia, in few year back there were a news here on PDF about we ask to buy Su-35 from Russia but Russia politely decline and it will be expensive to buy form Russia and upgraded from China

China still can't upgrade its Su-35SK...

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

the 4 hind was the minor sale we should develop good trust with Russia then we thinks for big ticket items from Russia, in few year back there were a news here on PDF about we ask to buy Su-35 from Russia but Russia politely decline and it will be expensive to buy form Russia and upgraded from China, let suppose we will buy used 40-50 Su-30 from third country it will cost 40-50 million $$$ per jet and to install AESA/IRST/EW/ECM/ESM or may be engine it would cost more then 60-70 million $$ per jet, isn't this wise to buy J-10C directly from China for a price of 65 million $$$???

Yes J 10c is a good option and China will not demand direct payment they will give us relaxation in payment maybe instalments but Paf is allergic to it . Indeed Russian tech is too expensive and the economy will not be in any state to buy fighter aircraft after Corona let's hope Azm and block 3 are not delayed.

 

[DHSquare]

BTW check this out regarding new construction industry stimulus package announced in the form of an ordinance by PTI govt.;

https://www.facebook.com/

BTW check this out regarding new construction industry stimulus package announced in the form of an ordinance by PTI govt.;

https://www.facebook.com/

Maybe this could become a catalyst in giving fiscal cushion to the state in the form of increased tax collection earlier than all of us might have thought.... Which may result in greater allocation of funds!

 

[araz]

Sir the airbase can be taken out by cruise missiles or SOWs then where will the aircraft land and when the AESA can engage 4 targets then why not use 4 BVRAAMS on 4 targets that will keep them away from our fighters as Indian BVRAAMS have less range than PL 15 . We have already seen that on 27 feb, once they realized that they dont have enough range they ran and never looked back. We don't need a 10 BVR aircraft but 4 does make sense. J 10 is ideal but PAF seems to be allergic to it.


Can we go for used su 30 from Russia and get them upgraded from China and convert them in dedicated EW aircraft like J 15 and distribute them In our squadrons for EW that would reduce the load of DA 20s is it possible

This talk of air base being taken out is catered for by use of alternate runways. Ican assure you that in a fullblown war JFT of all blocks will be using a 4+2combination on DERs.
SU30 first second or third hand do not make any sense as you need to establish infrastructure to maintain and run the plane. The cost of infrastructire is almost as much as the plane itself and it is this cost we cannot afford. Secondly Russia is very unlikely to give you anything of value and then let the Chinese upgrade it. Rissian hardqare and weapons would be another type of inventory we will have to carry which has its own nuisance value.
A

 

[JohnWick]

Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.

6) F 16s are limited only 75

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .


What path should PAF take :
1) Thunder was a success follow the same path . A joint venture with China or Turkey seems to be the ideal choice.

2) That way we can take the engine from Russia through China maybe RD 33

3) We can use our own AESA radar
4) Integrate Chinese, Turkish and Pakistani weapons

5) That way it can have Chinese Turkish and Pakistani tech on it .

6) Follow the Block building approach that way we can keep the aircraft relevant.

7) Thunder didn't cost a large amount if it is a JV we can keep the cost down.
8) development time should be 5 to 6 years and with help of our Chinese and Turkish brothers we can have our very own Rafael in 5 to 6 years.


Benefits of our own Medium weight fighter :
1) It will be cost effective like the Thunder

2) It will have both western and eastern tech

3) It will be able to carry more
BVRAAMS just 4 will be fine

4) It will be able to act like an EW bird like EA 18

5) 9 to 12 billion usd saved for purchasing 36 stop gap fighters to counter Rafael.

6) It can have our own weapons like indigenous BVRAAM.

7) No strings attached.

8) No more begging to USA for F16s

9) While Indians keep giving money to France and US and getting milked.

10 ) We can use it and integrate any weapon we want .

11) That combined with jf 17 block 3 will give nightmares to hinduvata goons till Azm arrives and matures.

12 ) It will keep Kamra busy and we will get more experience in designing and developing fighter aircraft.

13) Who knows if Turkey inducts the aircraft too because they get blackmailed by US they too can have a good platform t which does not have strings attached.

14) It can be the platform on which we can test Azms tech.

15) All Pakistanis need is vision which we sadly lack. We need to get out of slave mentality that we cannot make anything good . We have to start somewhere right?



Sorry for any mistakes this is my first post please be forgiving .
I have a lot to learn so I can be wrong too forgive me for any mistakes.
Have a nice day.

Sir @MastanKhan can tell sth about it.

 

[Materialistic]

Aren't we banking wayy too much on project AZM?

If someone suggests about developing a medium weight fighter - the whole forum goes like we don't have sufficient know-how or funding and in the same breadth we move on to mention our high hopes for making a 5th Gen aircraft?

We cannot make a jet from scratch all on our own yet! We do not have the capacity to independently take on block upgrades of thunder and with no other experience how can we be so sure that project AZM will actually work out? Its an up-hill task - it can have delays. Plus it can only continue If our economic curve moves up from here for the next decade. And besides all these points project AZM is for 2035 and beyond but our problem is right here and right now in front of us!

Considering our relations with West & Russia and of course financing — Our only option is a beefed up thunder, something like thunder on steroids.

We are not a country capable of running multiple platform development then how can we give up the only proven platform we have! Just inducted first aircraft in 2007 and here in 2020 we say it can't go much further! Look what US did with f-16 and Swedes with Grippen?

How about we go back to drawing board and:
- Increase the airframe size a little and strength (strength as we already are with use of composites)*
- Get a more powerful engine, Al31F (if we can pursue Russia for handful of these, the engine is slightly smaller in diameter and 2.5 feet longer - ofcourse lesser space adjustment needed than the JF17B.)**
- Use the already figured out dorsal spine for additional fuel
- Stealth coating

In return we get:
- Additional hardpoints
- Carry bigger weapons/munitions
- Agility/climb rate/speed

Immediate 2-4 squadrons of these would add what we want to achieve with a stop-gap fighter and may increase the potential of exports where we only had 2 limited orders.

Additionally, instead of draining money into foreign pockets we can keep our lines going and save some money too. Considering how much a cheapest option of a stop-gap fighter would cost it would be ideal to further invest in jf17 and double our production capacity.

* We don't make planes by pouring molten metal in a mold to make thunder and since we can modify airframe for only 26 jf17Bs then isn't the current gap more demanding and deserving for this effort?

** Could be easier than persuading Russia for Mig35s or Su's

Wasn't the whole rationale behind thunder "It's our baby we can do with it whatever we want?" Maybe time to get the baby working on something bigger?