Why Pakistan Airforce needs to make its own medium weight fighter

[Ahmet Pasha]

AM Shahid Lateef said he wanted a medium weight but Chinese were adamant on the Super 7 i.e slightly modernized F7 design. It took a lot of arguments, convincing on his part to get what we have today.

Using lessons from JF17 development process.
They then developed IAI Laavi and F16 hybrid PLAAF flies today in form of J10.

Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.

6) F 16s are limited only 75

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .


What path should PAF take :
1) Thunder was a success follow the same path . A joint venture with China or Turkey seems to be the ideal choice.

2) That way we can take the engine from Russia through China maybe RD 33

3) We can use our own AESA radar
4) Integrate Chinese, Turkish and Pakistani weapons

5) That way it can have Chinese Turkish and Pakistani tech on it .

6) Follow the Block building approach that way we can keep the aircraft relevant.

7) Thunder didn't cost a large amount if it is a JV we can keep the cost down.
8) development time should be 5 to 6 years and with help of our Chinese and Turkish brothers we can have our very own Rafael in 5 to 6 years.


Benefits of our own Medium weight fighter :
1) It will be cost effective like the Thunder

2) It will have both western and eastern tech

3) It will be able to carry more
BVRAAMS just 4 will be fine

4) It will be able to act like an EW bird like EA 18

5) 9 to 12 billion usd saved for purchasing 36 stop gap fighters to counter Rafael.

6) It can have our own weapons like indigenous BVRAAM.

7) No strings attached.

8) No more begging to USA for F16s

9) While Indians keep giving money to France and US and getting milked.

10 ) We can use it and integrate any weapon we want .

11) That combined with jf 17 block 3 will give nightmares to hinduvata goons till Azm arrives and matures.

12 ) It will keep Kamra busy and we will get more experience in designing and developing fighter aircraft.

13) Who knows if Turkey inducts the aircraft too because they get blackmailed by US they too can have a good platform t which does not have strings attached.

14) It can be the platform on which we can test Azms tech.

15) All Pakistanis need is vision which we sadly lack. We need to get out of slave mentality that we cannot make anything good . We have to start somewhere right?



Sorry for any mistakes this is my first post please be forgiving .
I have a lot to learn so I can be wrong too forgive me for any mistakes.
Have a nice day.

Also when I and another guy proposed a Medium weight fighter with two engines like F18. We didn't get 15 likes. We got usual afsar excuses ohhh we dont have the money. Ahhh we don't have brainpower. Ahh how will we do it. Ahhh we don't have need for such toys. Ahhh we should only buy from our gora master who is the only one to make such heavenly technology and sell it to us at ridiculous prices so we truly feel like slaves.

Why does Pakistan need more medium weight fighters :
1) Paf is outnumbered by modern 4th gen medium weight fighters in IAF inventory

2 ) JF 17 is an excellent Light weight aircraft but lacks range and payload capabilities which indian medium weight fighters have .

3 ) JF 17 cannot take the role of Mirage due to payload limitations .

4) JF 17 cannot carry more than 2 BVRAAMS without limiting range .

5) JF 17 cannot act as an EW aircraft like EA 18 due to payload limitations.

6) F 16s are limited only 75

7) F 16s are limited to AIM 120 c5 I doubt we will even get c7s

8) Aircraft which can carry more payload than JF 17 and can stay in air longer is desperately needed.

9) We don't have money so can't buy from anyone

10 ) We need an aircraft to deal with Rafael

11) 5th gen aircraft (project azm) even if we make it by 2035 we cannot keep them in large numbers due to cost and maintenance even USAF cannot purchase more than 200 Raptors .

12 ) 4th gen aircraft are going no where US will use F 15 EX with 5th gen fighter aircraft beyond 2070s.
So importance of medium weight fighters cannot be ruled out.

13 ) We need a stop gap fighter till Azm matures .


What path should PAF take :
1) Thunder was a success follow the same path . A joint venture with China or Turkey seems to be the ideal choice.

2) That way we can take the engine from Russia through China maybe RD 33

3) We can use our own AESA radar
4) Integrate Chinese, Turkish and Pakistani weapons

5) That way it can have Chinese Turkish and Pakistani tech on it .

6) Follow the Block building approach that way we can keep the aircraft relevant.

7) Thunder didn't cost a large amount if it is a JV we can keep the cost down.
8) development time should be 5 to 6 years and with help of our Chinese and Turkish brothers we can have our very own Rafael in 5 to 6 years.


Benefits of our own Medium weight fighter :
1) It will be cost effective like the Thunder

2) It will have both western and eastern tech

3) It will be able to carry more
BVRAAMS just 4 will be fine

4) It will be able to act like an EW bird like EA 18

5) 9 to 12 billion usd saved for purchasing 36 stop gap fighters to counter Rafael.

6) It can have our own weapons like indigenous BVRAAM.

7) No strings attached.

8) No more begging to USA for F16s

9) While Indians keep giving money to France and US and getting milked.

10 ) We can use it and integrate any weapon we want .

11) That combined with jf 17 block 3 will give nightmares to hinduvata goons till Azm arrives and matures.

12 ) It will keep Kamra busy and we will get more experience in designing and developing fighter aircraft.

13) Who knows if Turkey inducts the aircraft too because they get blackmailed by US they too can have a good platform t which does not have strings attached.

14) It can be the platform on which we can test Azms tech.

15) All Pakistanis need is vision which we sadly lack. We need to get out of slave mentality that we cannot make anything good . We have to start somewhere right?



Sorry for any mistakes this is my first post please be forgiving .
I have a lot to learn so I can be wrong too forgive me for any mistakes.
Have a nice day.

Pakistan needs more transport aircraft and transport helicopters as well as drones for all types of Ops (peace and war).

Well said if drones can take off some load from duties that multi role jets have to perform then those same fighters can be used much more effectively.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

I don't think JF 17 has more upgrading capacity left after block 3 then I am afraid block 3 is all we have till 2040. But if PAF is satisfied with it then it will work. Thanks for sharing your valuable opinion

What do you say about F-16 is there any room left for improvement ??? But they are still improving Block 52+, Block 60, Block 62, Block 70, Block 72 and what not. Now F-16 IN which is altogether a different beast. As technology improves, material improves the room becomes available for improvements. You just cant through away decades of learning and experience in the trash like any thing. So there is always a room of improvement but the point is it fulfilling the requirement of the future or does it worth spending money ?

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

What do you say about F-16 is there any room left for improvement ??? But they are still improving Block 52+, Block 60, Block 62, Block 70, Block 72 and what not. Now F-16 IN which is altogether a different beast. As technology improves, material improves the room becomes available for improvements. You just cant through away decades of learning and experience in the trash like any thing. So there is always a room of improvement but the point is it fulfilling the requirement of the future or does it worth spending money ?

Existing air frames of JF 17 block 1 and 2 do not have the ability to be further upgraded to block 3 standard so they are just going to get old in 20 years and will not be combat effective. Even if we make block 4 it doesn't mean much unless previous aircraft can be upgraded to that standard so we will have old aircraft and nothing new to put in them.

AM Shahid Lateef said he wanted a medium weight but Chinese were adamant on the Super 7 i.e slightly modernized F7 design. It took a lot of arguments, convincing on his part to get what we have today.

Using lessons from JF17 development process.
They then developed IAI Laavi and F16 hybrid PLAAF flies today in form of J10.


Also when I and another guy proposed a Medium weight fighter with two engines like F18. We didn't get 15 likes. We got usual afsar excuses ohhh we dont have the money. Ahhh we don't have brainpower. Ahh how will we do it. Ahhh we don't have need for such toys. Ahhh we should only buy from our gora master who is the only one to make such heavenly technology and sell it to us at ridiculous prices so we truly feel like slaves.


Absolutely right sir the Americans milk us and give us old tech they don't trust us with block 60s or 70s. It's time to come out of f16 love and start making our own. block 15s will soon be useless once the adversary gets Rafael and super sukhoi we need to follow the same block building approach and make our own MWF or we are so dead. Who knows how long Azm takes it's far more complex than a 4th gen aircraft example is PAK FA it is still not combat ready and Russia is desperately trying to sell some. Let's hope Azm is on time and with all the bells and whistles or PAF might be toast.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Existing air frames of JF 17 block 1 and 2 do not have the ability to be further upgraded to block 3 standard so they are just going to get old in 20 years and will not be combat effective. Even if we make block 4 it doesn't mean much unless previous aircraft can be upgraded to that standard so we will have old aircraft and nothing new to put in them.

Son thats what happening to the F-16 older blocks but as techs improving and miniaturising it always creating room of improvement with the older frames and with strengthening time to time their life also increases.

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

PAF's doctrine dictates their choices. Deterrence by denial.

Please remember one thing, in war situation the number of aircrafts and speed of mobilization (or scrambling) and quick replacement is vital.

In this context PAF wants JFT. It seems PAF wants to have 300 plus JFTs.
Nobody will disagree with you on your points. But its the doctrine and financial constraints.

I belong to the camp which still believes that j-10b and c should be in PAF. Pakistan should have been its first customer. As I believe its a true multirole jet which fulfill lightweight and heavyweight requirements. Plus, since the PLAAF is using it, it will continue to improve and on a priority basis. 500 are with them.

The JF 17 is light means less fuel and only 2 BVRAAMS it will have to land again and again to refuel . We cant always count on air to air refueling because what if they get taken out then how will the Thunders stay in air ?? What if it lands and gets taken out by a cruise missile or the runway is not operational. Anything can happen in a war more fuel and payload is a must. J 10c seems to be an ideal aircraft but no one knows why PAF won't go for it.

Son thats what happening to the F-16 older blocks but as techs improving and miniaturising it always creating room of improvement with the older frames and with strengthening time to time their life also increases.

Sir f16 tech seems to be out of reach for now we have to use what we have . Also how long will the 50 block 1 aircraft survive they definitely cannot get upgraded to block 3 standard they will be combat ineffective in 20 years because the adversary is investing in EW and more capable SAMS if they don't have good situational awareness and EW how long can they last in modern air battle without Support aircraft.

 

[khanasifm]

AM Shahid Lateef said he wanted a medium weight but Chinese were adamant on the Super 7 i.e slightly modernized F7 design. It took a lot of arguments, convincing on his part to get what we have today.

Using lessons from JF17 development process.
They then developed IAI Laavi and F16 hybrid PLAAF flies today in form of J10.


Also when I and another guy proposed a Medium weight fighter with two engines like F18. We didn't get 15 likes. We got usual afsar excuses ohhh we dont have the money. Ahhh we don't have brainpower. Ahh how will we do it. Ahhh we don't have need for such toys. Ahhh we should only buy from our gora master who is the only one to make such heavenly technology and sell it to us at ridiculous prices so we truly feel like slaves.



Well said if drones can take off some load from duties that multi role jets have to perform then those same fighters can be used much more effectively.

J-10 program was started in 80s

the only thing I know is that j-10 was not glass cockpit and was influenced by jf-17 program

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

KLJ-7A2

KLJ-7A??

PAF don't need range to strike deep inside in India,

We need range and payload for maritime. We needs platforms which can travel deep in sea and launch Anti Ship Missiles

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

AM Shahid Lateef said he wanted a medium weight but Chinese were adamant on the Super 7 i.e slightly modernized F7 design. It took a lot of arguments, convincing on his part to get what we have today.

Using lessons from JF17 development process.
They then developed IAI Laavi and F16 hybrid PLAAF flies today in form of J10.


Also when I and another guy proposed a Medium weight fighter with two engines like F18. We didn't get 15 likes. We got usual afsar excuses ohhh we dont have the money. Ahhh we don't have brainpower. Ahh how will we do it. Ahhh we don't have need for such toys. Ahhh we should only buy from our gora master who is the only one to make such heavenly technology and sell it to us at ridiculous prices so we truly feel like slaves.



Well said if drones can take off some load from duties that multi role jets have to perform then those same fighters can be used much more effectively.

The J-10 and FC-1 started around the same time.

The J-10 was China's attempt at a fully modern fighter (i.e., with fly-by-wire, composite use, etc), while the FC-1 was an export-oriented project using simpler/older design concepts. The PAF was fine with the FC-1 because CAC designed it for the general specifications the PAF set in the late-1980s for Sabre II.

We need to remember: The FC-1/Super-7 was always meant to inter-operate with another -- and larger -- platform, either the F-16 and/or the Mirage 2000. This was the idea right until the late 2000s. When the US agreed to sell F-16s, the PAF sought 55-75 Block-52+ at first.

The JF-17 Block-II fully met the PAF needs, but Pakistan ran into a sudden dry-up of outside suppliers and severe economic and fiscal issues. In other words, the only way to now get the latest capabilities was through the Block-III, but the Block-III is evidently the final stretch of the current design.

In other words, we can't improve the JF-17 any further (in significant ways) without re-opening the design and repeating the entire process of wind-tunnel tests, flight tests, weapon integration and tests, etc.

The PAF likely saw that the work wasn't worth it, and that it could devote those resources towards a platform that solves every need from the start: Project AZM. The PAF didn't set a top-end ASR (twin-engine, supercruising, etc) for giggles, but because it doesn't believe it'll be able to buy such a fighter off-the-shelf from anywhere.

 

[Kompromat]

Too late.

From the beginning the JF-17 should have been built along the dimensions and performance of the F-16.

 

[CHI RULES]

The J-10 and FC-1 started around the same time.

The J-10 was China's attempt at a fully modern fighter (i.e., with fly-by-wire, composite use, etc), while the FC-1 was an export-oriented project using simpler/older design concepts. The PAF was fine with the FC-1 because CAC designed it for the general specifications the PAF set in the late-1980s for Sabre II.

We need to remember: The FC-1/Super-7 was always meant to inter-operate with another -- and larger -- platform, either the F-16 and/or the Mirage 2000. This was the idea right until the late 2000s. When the US agreed to sell F-16s, the PAF sought 55-75 Block-52+ at first.

The JF-17 Block-II fully met the PAF needs, but Pakistan ran into a sudden dry-up of outside suppliers and severe economic and fiscal issues. In other words, the only way to now get the latest capabilities was through the Block-III, but the Block-III is evidently the final stretch of the current design.

In other words, we can't improve the JF-17 any further (in significant ways) without re-opening the design and repeating the entire process of wind-tunnel tests, flight tests, weapon integration and tests, etc.

The PAF likely saw that the work wasn't worth it, and that it could devote those resources towards a platform that solves every need from the start: Project AZM. The PAF didn't set a top-end ASR (twin-engine, supercruising, etc) for giggles, but because it doesn't believe it'll be able to buy such a fighter off-the-shelf from anywhere.

Mr Shahid Lateef has publicly mentioned in his interviews that further blocks of JF17 after block III shall come.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Mr Shahid Lateef has publicly mentioned in his interviews that further blocks of JF17 after block III shall come.

He's no longer in the PAF. Yes, he knows a lot about the stuff during his time and shortly after he retired, but 5-10+ years out? Things are different. E.g., AC(R) Kaiser Tufail didn't think the PAF needed LIFT and that the K-8 was good enough, but the current CAS said the PAF needed LIFT.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Too late.

From the beginning the JF-17 should have been built along the dimensions and performance of the F-16.

Or J-10.

 

[CHI RULES]

He's no longer in the PAF. Yes, he knows a lot about the stuff during his time and shortly after he retired, but 5-10+ years out? Things are different. E.g., AC(R) Kaiser Tufail didn't think the PAF needed LIFT and that the K-8 was good enough, but the current CAS said the PAF needed LIFT.

Let's see what happens in future.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

No buying pleaae we can make them ! Lets make pakistan aviation production power house of muslim world. Espeically military jets slowly and steadily. One project each decade.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The cheapest option is to add more Block-IIIs and/or JF-17Bs, but with maybe improved radar and electronics. I think that could happen, but I don't see the PAF committing to any additional design or development work to the JF-17. So, if there's a Block-4, it'll be a minor update to the Block-3. The one thing left I think is securing GaN-based AESA radars and EW/ECM.

But the next big fighter is Project AZM.

Sure, it isn't 'around the corner,' but to be brutally frank neither is Pakistan's economy.

We could either keep going into debt and sell off other prime assets (like Riqo Diq, Thar coal, etc) to China or the West to fund interim solutions forever...OR...we can kill the root problem once and for all by using the downtime to develop our economy, R&D, and own solutions.

AZM isn't going to be a miracle. It's going to have its own weaknesses (like imported engine, foreign semiconductor tech, and other issues), sure, but it's one huge step the right direction to getting a really capable fighter on-demand and at a workable cost.

But the engineers, scientists, R&D facilities, supply chain providers (e.g., for aero-structures, composites, etc) that come out are going to be worth more. If, by some miracle, Pakistan is able to great economic planners with teeth, they can put that base to work to get us money for importing whatever high-end defence items we need.