Why Pakistan Airforce needs to make its own medium weight fighter

[araz]

ASAK.
I thought I might put my input into the debate before enthusiasm takes over pragmatism as it invariably does with all such debates. Our younger brothers always want the best for the PAF and so it should be. However it should be a realistic ask.
If you look at the direction the PAF has set itself since it started off with theThunders, it would become very obvious what is
on its mind.
Firstly, irrespective of how much you criticize the PAF regarding the size of JFT, there were obvious complications in its partnership with the Chinese. With concomitant development of J 10 its premier fighter, the Chinese would never have run 2 parallel competing programmes. So it would have either been a case of abandoning the JFT and jumping on the rather risky bandwagon of J10 as a product when the Chinese had built enough for their own use. Your problemz with this approach would never have been resolved and you would have remained a buyer of products.
So PAF went with a smaller fighter ala Gripen and designed it along conventional means for ease of integration and learning.
Block 1 done PAF started off adding bells and whistles to block 2 like better software, and IFR. However, very interestingly PAF did not go for increasing hardpoints which had been invisaged in the original design instead working with 7HPs. One has to wonder why!
With that stage done and extended to62 fighters signifying a certain satisfaction with the design parameters, PAF went for Bs and now to Block 3.
I will leave the Block 2Bs aside as it is a different debate.
With Block 3 we are looking at 1-3 HPs(various open sources talk of increasing Hardpoints.) But more importantly we are lookkng at hardware upgrades in AESA radar, IFF, various other software updates. There maybe efforts to increase internal fuel and weapons carrying ability. With IFR as standard loitering time can go up to the Max. of 3hours. PAFhas not gone for OBOG so relying on O2 in a cylinder.
I think the emphasis has always been on a simple uncomplicated fighter with good turn around time and ability to function off temporary surfaces.
PAF has made no effort to force the US to give it something in return for its services towards the Afghan conflict resolution and I think it points to its satisfaction with what it has in its hands. I think purely from a technical reason it would be impossible to run a small or medium weight fighter programme side by side at this point in time. So it will have to be either ---or. NOT BOTH. Financially as well as technically PAF cannot take away workforce from Azm or JFT programme to dedicate to another fighter. Even if by some miracle we manage to do so, how many units will we have to produce for financial viability of the project----- 100-200 units.What is the time frame involved in this venture . We can barely manage 1 squadron conversion to JFT A year. How are we going to manage 2.
The only sane option should it come our way is more 16s due to available manpower and trained personnel but other than that, any new project will come at the expense of either the JFT or Azm.
One might ask then why the upgradation of the Mirages. The answer remains the same as for 16s.
Personally I only see Azm coming out as our next in house produced platform. Whether we buy Xor Y remains a mute point due to our dire finances.
Regards
A

 

[LKJ86]

Using lessons from JF17 development process.
They then developed IAI Laavi and F16 hybrid PLAAF flies today in form of J10.

The J-10 and FC-1 started around the same time.

CAC proposed the concept of J-10 in 1982, and the project of J-10 officially started in 1986.
J-10 made its maiden flight in 1998, and entered service in 2004.

CAC tried to restart "Super-7" in 1991, and FC-1/JF-17 made its maiden flight in 2003.

The chief designers of J-10 and FC-1/JF-17:

 

[Khurram2349]

PAF is already making Medium Weight Fighter in Project AZM . Work has already started . If PAF will start any new fighter project now it will take same or even more time period then Project AZM so why to duplicate their efforts ? Best option for PAF will be to work on update of JF 17 to Block 3 + Develop Project AZM + try to get at least 2 squadrons of J-11/15 Flankers or even better if can get J-20 or J-31 from China on loan as stop gap until Project AZM comes .

 

[Hassan Guy]

Somehow the Swedes, Brazillians and South Africans have their air force's dependent on one airplane in the same class as the JF-17 yet for some reason don't need heavier airplanes.

 

[Silverblaze]

The JF 17 is light means less fuel and only 2 BVRAAMS it will have to land again and again to refuel . We cant always count on air to air refueling because what if they get taken out then how will the Thunders stay in air ?? What if it lands and gets taken out by a cruise missile or the runway is not operational. Anything can happen in a war more fuel and payload is a must. J 10c seems to be an ideal aircraft but no one knows why PAF won't go for it.

No one can disagree with your points. However, PAF believes JFT will help them improve number disparity and in war situation can be cheaply mobilized. I might not necessarily agree with it, but it seems this is what they believe. Still if blk 3 fields Pl-15, it would be good enough according to many.

I fully agree about the J10c. The resources behind its improvement are enormous because of the direct PLAAF stake in it. Mig 35 is another option for PAF. However, the reliability with russia could be a problem. May be the navy can use mig 35 as strike jets. May be someone opens a thread about mig 35 for PAF or PN, it could be a good discussion.

Somehow the Swedes, Brazillians and South Africans have their air force's dependent on one airplane in the same class as the JF-17 yet for some reason don't need heavier airplanes.

True, but PAF faces a larger enemy. Questions about a medium weight jet will always be asked as long as PAF continues to use f-16s as its primary jet and the enemy also fields larger jets.

 

[araz]

No one can disagree with your points. However, PAF believes JFT will help them improve number disparity and in war situation can be cheaply mobilized. I might not necessarily agree with it, but it seems this is what they believe. Still if blk 3 fields Pl-15, it would be good enough according to many.

I fully agree about the J10c. The resources behind its improvement are enormous because of the direct PLAAF stake in it. Mig 35 is another option for PAF. However, the reliability with russia could be a problem. May be the navy can use mig 35 as strike jets. May be someone opens a thread about mig 35 for PAF or PN, it could be a good discussion.



True, but PAF faces a larger enemy. Questions about a medium weight jet will always be asked as long as PAF continues to use f-16s as its primary jet and the enemy also fields larger jets.

I was once told by our resident Air Commodore Muradk that no encounter in I do Pak Arena will occur with a load ou5 of more than 4BVRs+2 WVR. To me it makes sense as once you fire BVRs the other party,s achievement may well end up bei g "amraam dodgers". This would be both sides whether we like it or not. With FOBs within 250 miles of each other you could pottentially load up and be back in the arena with a different pilot in 15 to 20 minutes(???). If A BVR gets fired at you, you will have no other option but to jetisoncyour load and get the hell out of there. A bomb truck will not work in our environment.
If we all agree on this point why do we want 20 HPs on a plane? The only place I can see a need for perhaps 6+2 combo is on a deep sea escort mission where you do not have the time to come back and need to protect your other plane.
A

 

[Beast]

Sir if we can't develop a good 4th gen MWF how can we make a 5th gen aircraft surely we dont have the best semi conductor tech or composite tech but we need to start somewhere how did we make JF 17 it was a JV right we can do one with China again and semiconductor technology from Turkey that way we will gain experience for Azm


Nope F16 was already large enough to be converted but Thunder is not . Also the heavy engine and more payload would effect flight characteristics right ?

Hi, making a 4th gen or 5th gen modern fighter jet are not like making commercial products. You need to develop your industries from all sectors and cant just jump directly making it. With your heart and soul, it useless without a decade of planning and developing right from education to developing crucial industries.

A lot of ordinary Pakistanis think it Pakistan government refuse to develop it rather than just not able to do it. I hope you all understand the difficulties and huge financial burdern it take even to develop just a 4th fighter which reaches the early year 2000 standard.

Even the S.Korea , a developed nation with a strong semi-conductor and heavy industries, still need American expertise and support like powerplant and consultant for their KFX project. So what makes Pakistan different from this project like AZM vs JF-17 they are undertaking?

 

[Silverblaze]

I was once told by our resident Air Commodore Muradk that no encounter in I do Pak Arena will occur with a load ou5 of more than 4BVRs+2 WVR. To me it makes sense as once you fire BVRs the other party,s achievement may well end up bei g "amraam dodgers". This would be both sides whether we like it or not. With FOBs within 250 miles of each other you could pottentially load up and be back in the arena with a different pilot in 15 to 20 minutes(???). If A BVR gets fired at you, you will have no other option but to jetisoncyour load and get the hell out of there. A bomb truck will not work in our environment.
If we all agree on this point why do we want 20 HPs on a plane? The only place I can see a need for perhaps 6+2 combo is on a deep sea escort mission where you do not have the time to come back and need to protect your other plane.
A

you know much more than i do, however, i have few points to make.
Why does the PAF has the f16 as its primary weapon then?
Like one of the contributors said, what if jfts lands again and again and get taken out? or runway becomes nonoperational. how long can jfts survive in air? Less payload and fuel can become a problem.

Your absolutely right about not having a bomb truck, no one is asking for su35, but a slightly larger platform like may be j10 or even mig 35 should be considered. jft blk3 will be a fantastic edition, but can it compete with j10c in a bvr setting?
this discussion will never end.

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

PAF is already making Medium Weight Fighter in Project AZM . Work has already started . If PAF will start any new fighter project now it will take same or even more time period then Project AZM so why to duplicate their efforts ? Best option for PAF will be to work on update of JF 17 to Block 3 + Develop Project AZM + try to get at least 2 squadrons of J-11/15 Flankers or even better if can get J-20 or J-31 from China on loan as stop gap until Project AZM comes .

Where will 2 squadrons of J 11 and J 15 come from when they are not allowed to be exported because they are copies of Russian flanker design and they also have a huge RCS and are an easy target.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Where will 2 squadrons of J 11 and J 15 come from when they are not allowed to be exported because they are copies of Russian flanker design and they also have a huge RCS and are an easy target.

Yes main problems is they are copies of Russian design but remember bro bigger means they can carry lots advance ECM/ESM/EW stuff with them

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

I was once told by our resident Air Commodore Muradk that no encounter in I do Pak Arena will occur with a load ou5 of more than 4BVRs+2 WVR. To me it makes sense as once you fire BVRs the other party,s achievement may well end up bei g "amraam dodgers". This would be both sides whether we like it or not. With FOBs within 250 miles of each other you could pottentially load up and be back in the arena with a different pilot in 15 to 20 minutes(???). If A BVR gets fired at you, you will have no other option but to jetisoncyour load and get the hell out of there. A bomb truck will not work in our environment.
If we all agree on this point why do we want 20 HPs on a plane? The only place I can see a need for perhaps 6+2 combo is on a deep sea escort mission where you do not have the time to come back and need to protect your other plane.
A

Sir the airbase can be taken out by cruise missiles or SOWs then where will the aircraft land and when the AESA can engage 4 targets then why not use 4 BVRAAMS on 4 targets that will keep them away from our fighters as Indian BVRAAMS have less range than PL 15 . We have already seen that on 27 feb, once they realized that they dont have enough range they ran and never looked back. We don't need a 10 BVR aircraft but 4 does make sense. J 10 is ideal but PAF seems to be allergic to it.

Yes main problems is they are copies of Russian design but remember bro bigger means they can carry lots advance ECM/ESM/EW stuff with them

Can we go for used su 30 from Russia and get them upgraded from China and convert them in dedicated EW aircraft like J 15 and distribute them In our squadrons for EW that would reduce the load of DA 20s is it possible

 

[Ultima Thule]

Can we go for used su 30 from Russia and get them upgraded from China and convert them in dedicated EW aircraft like J 15 and distribute them In our squadrons for EW that would reduce the load of DA 20s is it possible

Currently our relation with Russia not reach in that level that we can buy big Ticket item from Russia
and we are looking to replace our DA-20 with newer multi-role MPA/EW jet, and If we buy from Russia and upgrade from China, then why not we buy J- series of jets directly from China if Russia allows, EW mission for fighter jets is always secondary mission unless it would be developed for dedicated Jamming mission like F-18 E/F growler/J-16D, and smaller jets like J-16/F-18 E/F growler has a limited jamming/EW capabilities as compare to dedicated EW/jamming plate-forms

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

Currently our relation with Russia not reach in that level that we can buy big Ticket item from Russia
and we are looking to replace our DA-20 with newer multi-role MPA/EW jet, and If we buy from Russia and upgrade from China, then why not we buy J- series of jets directly from China if Russia allows, EW mission for fighter jets is always secondary mission unless it would be developed for dedicated Jamming mission like F-18 E/F growler/J-16D, and smaller jets like J-16/F-18 E/F growler has a limited jamming/EW capabilities as compare to dedicated EW/jamming plate-forms

They did sell us the hinds because we paid in cash if we can get 16 to 18 of used aircraft we can get them upgraded easily because Russia won't object once they get some money and after upgrading from China we can post these dedicated EW birds in group of 2 in 8 to 9 squadrons they will reduce the load of DA 20s and if Russia doesn't get a cut in the deal they won't let us get the Chinese Flankers.

 

[LKJ86]

F-18 E/F growler/J-16D

You missed J-15D...

 

[Ultima Thule]

They did sell us the hinds because we paid in cash if we can get 16 to 18 of used aircraft we can get them upgraded easily because Russia won't object once they get some money and after upgrading from China we can post these dedicated EW birds in group of 2 in 8 to 9 squadrons they will reduce the load of DA 20s and if Russia doesn't get a cut in the deal they won't let us get the Chinese Flankers.

the 4 hind was the minor sale we should develop good trust with Russia then we thinks for big ticket items from Russia, in few year back there were a news here on PDF about we ask to buy Su-35 from Russia but Russia politely decline and it will be expensive to buy form Russia and upgraded from China, let suppose we will buy used 40-50 Su-30 from third country it will cost 40-50 million $$$ per jet and to install AESA/IRST/EW/ECM/ESM or may be engine it would cost more then 60-70 million $$ per jet, isn't this wise to buy J-10C directly from China for a price of 65 million $$$???