Why isn't there a Muslim 'EU'/NATO?

[AlKardai]

Guys, the only way we could start this process is by forming a union of the three countries I mentioned in the beginning. Pakistan, Iran and Turkey.

Such a union would end sectarian rivalry, no more Sunni Shia rivalry, it would also form the backbone for future enlargement of the union. It would also be democratic which is important because the future of the Muslim world will have to be such.

And it would lay the ground work for how to create such a union based on Islam even if the underlying countries have vast cultural differences.

Saudi would definitely be against this. Saudi practically sees itself as a “mini US” and believes that it is their job to police Muslim states.

Furthermore, you can’t have a Muslim nato without the centre of Islam, Saudi Arabia

 

[R2D2]

As a first step we should go for customs free trade between Pakistan and Afghanistan. We can use the ECO to add Turkey and Iran.

 

[Corruptistan]

Well, the Arabs need to truly unite first. After all the Islamic Ummah was at its greatest state and was most influnetial on every front when the Arabs led/ruled/dominated the Ummah from Portugal to modern-day Pakistan (Sindh and much of Punjab).
From the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Famitid, Al-Andalus etc.

They are the cradle of Islam after all and all the main Islamic holy sites are located in Arab lands.

Arabs don't necessarily have to led the Ummah but peace, unity and prosperity is a MUST in the heartland of Islam (Arab world) for any genuine Muslim unity to emerge.

Whether you like or dislike Arabs, it is hard to ignore this reality.

Anyway the Arabs share language, ancestry, culture, geography, Islamic and pre-Islamic history.

However different ideologies (political), different systems of governance (monarchies, republics, dictatorships), slightly different views on the importance/influence of Islam in the society, different priorities, different rivalries, make such a thing a difficult project for now.

Regional blocs (GCC), Maghreb Arab Union (once Algeria and Morocco end their stupid rivalry (from the outside at least), Libya becomes stable etc. emerging is quite realistic. I mean the GCC is in many ways very similar to the EU and US. For instance every GCC nationality can freely work and live in each GCC country if they so wish to and they have the exact same rights.

This type of system (GCC) could be copied by regional blocs in the Arab world and afterwards the non-Arab Muslim world.

Indonesia, Brunei and Malaysia could form a natural South East Asian Muslim bloc.

Indian and Bangladeshi Muslim ethnic groups are probably the closest to each other too so they could form another East South Asian/South Asian bloc.

Pakistan and Afghanistan another.

Iran + Tajikistan + Tajik part of Afghanistan another. (Farsi speaking bloc).

Turkic Central Asian states (Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan) another.

Caucasian Muslims (in Russia and South Caucasus) another.

Turkey and Azerbaijan another.

Horn of African Muslims another.

Sahel Muslim countries another.

West African Muslims another with Hausas taking the lead.

Muslim Balkan Muslims (Muslim Albanians, Kosovo Albanians + Bosniaks).

Answer is simple, there was no technological means to make intra operational, even now it would be stretch to organize such military alliance, no nuclear air carriers, subs, strategic air transportation, jet fighters and such under production of muslim populated states.
Without that you can not have essential backbone of effective and easy operable task forces even if you overcome all common disunity between countries you need to overcome this obstacle first.
And at the end also there is big problem which countries would be first among equals, lot of work, trust and connections to be interwind before such organization could take basic shape, also what is almost unsolvable issue is state governance in muslim nations, you have monarchies, republics, dictatorships etc., NATO main strenght is derived from ideological uniformity on state levels, that itself would be enormous challenge to overcome for interested countries.
Less ambitious goal could be achieved by regions and between lingvistic and cultural similar countries,

Well said.

Religion alone is not a strong instrument for nation states to align on their own.

Political commonality, shared/common interests and economic cooperation are the most important ties that bind nation states together.

Take the GCC as an example which I would claim is the only well-functioning Muslim political bloc out there.

All member states are Arab states. All are monarchies. All share a border with each other. All are societies were Islam is not only a cultural element but also plays a direct political role unlike say secular majority Muslim countries. All member states share close economic ties and have similar/share more or less the same enemy/challenges.

All this gives them reason to unite and cooperate but even then, just like in NATO and EU, there are at times differences/rivalries.

It is just human nature to be tribal. If we are not dividing each other into ethnic groups, tribes, clans, skin colour, religions, political viewpoints/ideologies, sexes, economic and social status, appearance, personality traits, nationality etc. it is something else.

The reality is also that money triumphs almost everything in today's society. Religion as a whole is also dying. Even among Muslims. You notice it online and the many stupid discussions just within Pakistan. Or the blatant racism/dislike that many Pakistanis on PDF have for each other due to peoples different ethnic groups and sects.

 

[nahtanbob]

Guys, the only way we could start this process is by forming a union of the three countries I mentioned in the beginning. Pakistan, Iran and Turkey.

Such a union would end sectarian rivalry, no more Sunni Shia rivalry, it would also form the backbone for future enlargement of the union. It would also be democratic which is important because the future of the Muslim world will have to be such.

And it would lay the ground work for how to create such a union based on Islam even if the underlying countries have vast cultural differences.

I agree with your idea. the only problem is that Pakistan's population exceeds Iran and Turkey's. It is also the poorest of the lot Unions work when no one state dominates economically, politically (read demographics). Countries need to be culturally compatible. The largest states have to be economically the richest. If I look at the EU as a template no state is demographically dominant. Germany has 80 million. It is not that much higher than France, Italy or UK. The largest four -- Germany, France, UK and Italy are the strongest economies.

 

[Corruptistan]

I agree with your idea. the only problem is that Pakistan's population exceeds Iran and Turkey's. It is also the poorest of the lot Unions work when no one state dominates economically, politically (read demographics). Countries need to be culturally compatible. The largest states have to be economically the richest. If I look at the EU as a template no state is demographically dominant. Germany has 80 million. It is not that much higher than France, Italy or UK. The largest four -- Germany, France, UK and Italy are the strongest economies.

The idea of some imaginary Pakistan-Iran-Turkey union is laughable and as realistic as a China-Russia-USA-India union emerging. I don't know from where people invent/get such laughable ideas from?

To start with Turkey and Iran are historical rivals. Turkey is a NATO member state and firmly in the European sphere or at least looking more towards Europe than next door Middle East (Syria, Iraq + Iran) let alone far away Pakistan. Turkey and Pakistan are a world apart on almost every front. From language to mentality to appearance to culture, to political reforms to priorities etc.

Similarly with Iran. Iran and Iranians are/have always mostly looked towards their West (Arabs, Turkey). This is where their main focus has always been. This has not even changed under the Mullah's. If they look East, they are mostly looking towards tiny Tajikistan and Afghanistan (Farsi/Dari speaking peoples).

By 2050, Pakistan alone will have almost 2.5 times the population of Turkey and Iran combined.

Turkey is a secular society and largely a democracy. Iran is a Mullah dictatorship controlled by the IRGC and oligarchs allied to the Mullahs/IRGC. Pakistan is a self-proclaimed democracy but in reality a dictatorship/banana republic nowadays ruled by a corrupt sell-out military (along with their political mafia dynasties that they themselves created) allied to the same West that created them in the fist place (Brits). Nowadays the Brits have been replaced with the US. Our main focus is Kashmir/India as well as not pissing off the Arabs (remittances) and the Chinese (our main allies outside the West), meanwhile both Iran, Turkey and Arabs have good economic ties with India and do not see India or Indians as their enemies.

Just an absurd pipe dream all in all.

The only independent majority Muslim nation that Pakistan could create a genuine bloc with is Afghanistan but that nation is a hellhole on its own and much worse off than Pakistan. Afghanistan in its current state would just be a gigantic burden. Most Afghans don't want to unite with Pakistan either. Most Afghan Pashtuns don't want to nor do most Pakistani Pashtuns want to unite with Afghanistan. So what is left? Baloch in Pakistan might have sympathy to the Baloch in Iran (who are oppressed in their own right) but I am not aware of any Baloch willingness for some imaginary Iran + Pakistan merger, if anything, some radical Baloch nationalists want to carve out an independent Balochistan across the border.

Then the only native Pakistani ethnic group with transnational ties with communities abroad, are the Punjabis but which sane Pakistani Punjabi would want to unite with Indian Punjab which is almost exclusively Hindu and Sikh, not to mention the bloodshed/massacres during the time of partition? Another pipe dream IMO.

Actually rather than focus on with whom to unite with, Pakistanis need to unite and create a 1 billion times better Pakistan. Nowadays (and for the past many decades) Pakistan has been hijacked and Pakistan is one of the most underperforming nations on the planet. It is a tragedy and should be the main priority before some imaginary unions.

 

[Ssan]

The idea of some imaginary Pakistan-Iran-Turkey union is laughable and as realistic as a China-Russia-USA-India union emerging. I don't know from where people invent/get such laughable ideas from?

To start with Turkey and Iran are historical rivals. Turkey is a NATO member state and firmly in the European sphere or at least looking more towards Europe than next door Middle East (Syria, Iraq + Iran) let alone far away Pakistan. Turkey and Pakistan are a world apart on almost every front. From language to mentality to appearance to culture, to political reforms to priorities etc.

Similarly with Iran. Iran and Iranians are/have always mostly looked towards their West (Arabs, Turkey). This is where their main focus has always been. This has not even changed under the Mullah's. If they look East, they are mostly looking towards tiny Tajikistan and Afghanistan (Farsi/Dari speaking peoples).

By 2050, Pakistan alone will have almost 2.5 times the population of Turkey and Iran combined.

Turkey is a secular society and largely a democracy. Iran is a Mullah dictatorship controlled by the IRGC and oligarchs allied to the Mullahs/IRGC. Pakistan is a self-proclaimed democracy but in reality a dictatorship/banana republic nowadays ruled by a corrupt sell-out military (along with their political mafia dynasties that they themselves created) allied to the same West that created them in the fist place (Brits). Nowadays the Brits have been replaced with the US. Our main focus is Kashmir/India as well as not pissing off the Arabs (remittances) and the Chinese (our main allies outside the West), meanwhile both Iran, Turkey and Arabs have good economic ties with India and do not see India or Indians as their enemies.

Just an absurd pipe dream all in all.

The only independent majority Muslim nation that Pakistan could create a genuine bloc with is Afghanistan but that nation is a hellhole on its own and much worse off than Pakistan. Afghanistan in its current state would just be a gigantic burden. Most Afghans don't want to unite with Pakistan either. Most Afghan Pashtuns don't want to nor do most Pakistani Pashtuns want to unite with Afghanistan. So what is left? Baloch in Pakistan might have sympathy to the Baloch in Iran (who are oppressed in their own right) but I am not aware of any Baloch willingness for some imaginary Iran + Pakistan merger, if anything, some radical Baloch nationalists want to carve out an independent Balochistan across the border.

Then the only native Pakistani ethnic group with transnational ties with communities abroad, are the Punjabis but which sane Pakistani Punjabi would want to unite with Indian Punjab which is almost exclusively Hindu and Sikh, not to mention the bloodshed/massacres during the time of partition? Another pipe dream IMO.

Actually rather than focus on with whom to unite with, Pakistanis need to unite and create a 1 billion times better Pakistan. Nowadays (and for the past many decades) Pakistan has been hijacked and Pakistan is one of the most underperforming nations on the planet. It is a tragedy and should be the main priority before some imaginary unions.

I agree that Pakistan needs to better itself. No doubt.

But I don’t think this is as big of a pipe dream as you think. First all three countries benefit greatly from this endeavor. And no, none of the three countries would overpower the other in this arrangement. Pakistan may be the largest in terms of population but it’s the smallest in terms of wealth or income. Also it’s the least nationalist of the three and is actually really 7 or 8 nations in one.

But Pakistan provides a lot of key technologies that the other two do not have. First, the other two countries would inherit nuclear umbrella. There are also a lot key military techs that Pakistan has- not forgetting that geostrategic advantages for trading. If handled better, we can also be a food basket for the union.

Iran would benefit from moving out of the sectarian overhead. They would also gain access to two huge markets plus key techs from Turkey (industrial) and some from Pakistan (military). It’s huge energy supplies would solve the Achilles heal for Turkey and Pakistan.

Turkey would gain hugely too. Beyond nuclear umbrella, they would get access to trade with Asia and would also get the opportunity to export their economic techs to Pakistan/Iran.

Yes, there are cultural differences but the key takeaway is that there is strong Islamist presence in all three countries. So it might be a popular idea regardless of the cultural differences.

 

[Ssan]

And no, I disagree that politically they are all that different either. All of them have a democratic experience. To categorize, the Iranian regime as a mullah autocracy is a bit disingenuous. Yes, it’s true to some extent/ but the president in the country is more or less independent and a power player too. And elected democratically. Pakistans banana state status will soon be overturned when Khan comes back into power.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Muslim majority countries are weak right now. Its not time yet.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Alhamdulillah

I don’t know if you know but, a native European can be Muslim too.
Just like Christianity came to pagan Europeans, Islam is now spreading to Christian Europeans.

In Sha Allah

Islam is a religion and In Sha Allah many Europeans will accept Islam and become Muslims.
Already there’s European Muslim countries like Bosnia or Albania.

Indian is a nationality/race.
Islam is a religion.
An American can be Muslim.
An Indian can be Muslim.
Anyone can be Muslim.
An American cannot be Indian race wise.
And Indian cannot be American race wise.
But both can be Muslim.
A Muslim is anyone who is a believer in One God, Allah, and his Messenger Rasulallah (ﷺ).

Indians coming over to America is a group of people coming to another country.
Islam coming to America is native Americans accepting the religion of Truth.
An American can be a Jew or Hindu or Christian or Muslim.

Idk what that has to do with Islam.
Anyone can be a Muslim even the person I’m the situation your referring to can be Muslim.

The more Muslim presence in Europe the closer Europe is to deport them, evidently, the right wing rise in Europe is caused by migration.

 

[Zornix]

Because most Muslim countries are "Islamic" only in name, the leaders use religion to control the masses.

 

[Sayfullah]

The more Muslim presence in Europe the closer Europe is to deport them, evidently, the right wing rise in Europe is caused by migration.

How you gonna deport a European Muslim? If a French or German reverts to Islam where you gonna send them too?
Right wing of Europe was always there and always will be there. Right wing of Europe was there when it orchestrated massacres, genocides and oppression of Jews. But we Muslims will stand our ground and fight. We fought against them for centuries when they oppressed people, not just Muslims. Like we saved European Jews many times from the racist terrorist right wing Europeans, we Alhamdulillah have the power to protect Muslims in Europe from right wing.
I agree migration leads to many locals getting angry kind of like how millions of Jews migrated to Palestine and it caused lots of outrage. Europe can’t deport a religion because anybody can be Muslim. This isn’t Judaism which your mother has to be Jew for you to be Jew. Islam is free for everyone to join regardless of what their parents religion is. Europe can try deporting all Muslims but it won’t nearly have the same results as it did with Jews.
We only fear Allah and are ready to face any challenge.

 

[Beny Karachun]

How you gonna deport a European Muslim? If a French or German reverts to Islam where you gonna send them too?
Right wing of Europe was always there and always will be there. Right wing of Europe was there when it orchestrated massacres, genocides and oppression of Jews. But we Muslims will stand our ground and fight. We fought against them for centuries when they oppressed people, not just Muslims. Like we saved European Jews many times from the racist terrorist right wing Europeans, we Alhamdulillah have the power to protect Muslims in Europe from right wing.
I agree migration leads to many locals getting angry kind of like how millions of Jews migrated to Palestine and it caused lots of outrage. Europe can’t deport a religion because anybody can be Muslim. This isn’t Judaism which your mother has to be Jew for you to be Jew. Islam is free for everyone to join regardless of what their parents religion is. Europe can try deporting all Muslims but it won’t nearly have the same results as it did with Jews.
We only fear Allah and are ready to face any challenge.

Conversion of locals isn't a real threat, that's a rare occurrence, the threat in Europe is about birth rate.

Muslims only helped in the Spanish inquisition and crusades, and even then they were simply less worse.

Religious Islamists were the right hand of Hitler:

The Mufti of Jerusalem was the one that discussed with Hitler on the idea of killing all the Jews and supported it, some say even convinced him to do it, Muslim SS divisions existed as well.

Anyways, you guys will learn the hard way not to mess with the Europeans.

 

[Chat SAMOSA]

There are territorial disputes between Muslim nations but there are also such disputes amongst Europeans. There are differences on policy between the US and EU , even, but they still come to a settlement of some sort.

Tribal/Sectarian lines are the biggest hinderance to such an alliance, but these can be overcome too. In a Muslim 'EU'/NATO, the powerful Muslim nations would lead such an alliance and micromanage the sectarian/tribal differences. We are looking at :

1.) Saudi Arabia
2.) Iran
3.) Turkey
4.) Pakistan
5.) Egypt
6.) Algeria
7.) Indonesia
8.) Qatar
9.) Kuwait
10.) UAE

etc.... I probably missed a few so feel free to pitch in.

There must be social/political/economic cooperation. While the more powerful nations contribute to creating a humanitarian fund to help the less fortunate in impoverished areas. They do not need to be on the same page on everything but there must be a settlement in conflict hot zones such as Yemen, Syria. The Union must at least diplomatically and financially support popular causes such as Palestine, Kashmir, etc.... To keep them on the radar. Military solutions to such causes are not realistic at the moment.

Turkey/Qatar has influence over the Muslim Brotherhood and can cause shift to their agenda to begin preaching for an integrated region, that despite big differences among them, can at least pause the culture war in the region, setting change to permantely eliminate it in future.

Saudi Arabia likewise has influence over Arab bloc/Salafi bloc. And can do same.

Iran has the influence over Shia bloc and can reign its proxies in.

...
...

Obviously people will say it's because of US influence. Those that say that also must consider Russian influence. The real reason is people in region do not trust each other. Extending your hand is met with being taken advantage of, by a bloc that wants it all and does not believe in sharing.

I don't understand why we as Muslims can be so selfish and greedy. What is wrong with making some sacrifice in geopolitical interests for greater good of people of region?

If there are any other factors you think prevents a formation of Muslim EU, please share. I can think of one more:

1.) Nations aren't developed enough, and do not know what their potential is, and what they can bring the to the table, especially with oil being phased out in coming decades.

^^

European nations were more developed an each offer something unique. Muslim nations have not realized their potential , despite some of them like Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, and maybe Saudi Arabia offering more in some sectors.

Your list of 10 is your answer too. You had to leave out the country with the most or 2nd most number of mudlims. For a reason.

Though many don't admit it, every religion including islam simply divides within and without.

 

[Falcon29]

Appreciate responses by everyone, I thanked most all posts I could. Enjoyed everyone's perspective, Mashallah, lots of educated Muslims here. Lots to digest. Does not seem like brainpower issue. Or even lack of will among common folk. Seems like just case of fitting pieces of puzzle together and a question of when not if. Once Muslim nations become more developed and become technological powerhouses , then there should be good things to come.

Your list of 10 is your answer too. You had to leave out the country with the most or 2nd most number of mudlims. For a reason.

Though many don't admit it, every religion including islam simply divides within and without.

No offense to India, I included nations with Muslim majority population. That's what's considered a 'Muslim' nation. India has high number of Muslims but it's majority non-Muslim, if I'm correct. A Muslim 'EU' like bloc would also ties with other nations.

 

[Laser]

There are territorial disputes between Muslim nations but there are also such disputes amongst Europeans. There are differences on policy between the US and EU , even, but they still come to a settlement of some sort.

Tribal/Sectarian lines are the biggest hinderance to such an alliance, but these can be overcome too. In a Muslim 'EU'/NATO, the powerful Muslim nations would lead such an alliance and micromanage the sectarian/tribal differences. We are looking at :

1.) Saudi Arabia
2.) Iran
3.) Turkey
4.) Pakistan
5.) Egypt
6.) Algeria
7.) Indonesia
8.) Qatar
9.) Kuwait
10.) UAE

etc.... I probably missed a few so feel free to pitch in.

There must be social/political/economic cooperation. While the more powerful nations contribute to creating a humanitarian fund to help the less fortunate in impoverished areas. They do not need to be on the same page on everything but there must be a settlement in conflict hot zones such as Yemen, Syria. The Union must at least diplomatically and financially support popular causes such as Palestine, Kashmir, etc.... To keep them on the radar. Military solutions to such causes are not realistic at the moment.

Turkey/Qatar has influence over the Muslim Brotherhood and can cause shift to their agenda to begin preaching for an integrated region, that despite big differences among them, can at least pause the culture war in the region, setting change to permantely eliminate it in future.

Saudi Arabia likewise has influence over Arab bloc/Salafi bloc. And can do same.

Iran has the influence over Shia bloc and can reign its proxies in.

...
...

Obviously people will say it's because of US influence. Those that say that also must consider Russian influence. The real reason is people in region do not trust each other. Extending your hand is met with being taken advantage of, by a bloc that wants it all and does not believe in sharing.

I don't understand why we as Muslims can be so selfish and greedy. What is wrong with making some sacrifice in geopolitical interests for greater good of people of region?

If there are any other factors you think prevents a formation of Muslim EU, please share. I can think of one more:

1.) Nations aren't developed enough, and do not know what their potential is, and what they can bring the to the table, especially with oil being phased out in coming decades.

^^

European nations were more developed an each offer something unique. Muslim nations have not realized their potential , despite some of them like Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, and maybe Saudi Arabia offering more in some sectors.

G Bhai Jo bhi Muslim Unity ka soche ga us ka hal Bhutto, Shah Faisal aur Qazafi jesa ho ga.
Aur marney walay bhi bahar se nahi apnay log honge.