Why is Pakistan's missile program not as diverse?

[Ababeel]

I always think that Pakistan has made inroads in many sections of missile technology including IRBMs, Ground & Air Launched Cruise Missiles and even MANPADS, then why it is still not possible for the Pak scientist n engineers to make Medium n Long range SAMs, Anti-Ship missiles, AAMs or finally ABM system?
Secondly how India succeded in making Long Range SAM (Akash) and Anti Ballistic Missile (ABM) System while India also lacks in Hi-tech electronic industry e.g. FAB Plant to make chips as well as technology for some MEMS (Micro Electro-Mechanical Sensors) which are a critical part of guidance systems in these types of missiles. Or India just procure these parts from Russia and assemble them in India?
If that is the case then why Pakistan not doing the same with Chinese assistance?
One more news I heard in past that Pakistan n China are stablishing an advanced Defence electronic R & D Centre in Pakistan.
Will it be helpful in developing these technologies as well as RADAR technology?

Please reply in detail.

 

[SQ8]

Someone might give the details..
but best summation might be, an embargo hits us worse than it does them..
They still have a reliable supplier in Russia and Israel.
We don't have any other supplier besides China who doesn't put restrictions on us over the slightest excuse.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

1. Funding.

2. Funding.

3. No access to Russian and Israeli (who have themselves benefited from access to Western, especially US, technology) technology, though some Chinese technology has helped.

 

[holysaturn]

I always think that Pakistan has made inroads in many sections of missile technology including IRBMs, Ground & Air Launched Cruise Missiles and even MANPADS, then why it is still not possible for the Pak scientist n engineers to make Medium n Long range SAMs, Anti-Ship missiles, AAMs or finally ABM system?
Secondly how India succeded in making Long Range SAM (Akash) and Anti Ballistic Missile (ABM) System while India also lacks in Hi-tech electronic industry e.g. FAB Plant to make chips as well as technology for some MEMS (Micro Electro-Mechanical Sensors) which are a critical part of guidance systems in these types of missiles. Or India just procure these parts from Russia and assemble them in India?
If that is the case then why Pakistan not doing the same with Chinese assistance?
One more news I heard in past that Pakistan n China are stablishing an advanced Defence electronic R & D Centre in Pakistan.
Will it be helpful in developing these technologies as well as RADAR technology?

Please reply in detail.

surface to surface missiles are far simpler.akash still does not have a seeker.pad and aad were good because our software,IT industry is good,but seeker technology and other critical tech can be gained from mrsam(with israel),qrsam(with france),astra.propulsion and giudance have already been mastered.hit to kill(kinetic kill in aad which russians dont have)and gimballed directional warhead(in pad which chinese dont have) ,ramjet(in akash possibly with later variants of astra, which americans dont have)are some areas we have seen some sucess.

 

[Gucci Juice]

akash is not a long range sam its not even a medium range sam

its in the high end short range and low end medium range.

 

[amardeep mishra]

I always think that Pakistan has made inroads in many sections of missile technology including IRBMs, Ground & Air Launched Cruise Missiles and even MANPADS, then why it is still not possible for the Pak scientist n engineers to make Medium n Long range SAMs, Anti-Ship missiles, AAMs or finally ABM system?
Secondly how India succeded in making Long Range SAM (Akash) and Anti Ballistic Missile (ABM) System while India also lacks in Hi-tech electronic industry e.g. FAB Plant to make chips as well as technology for some MEMS (Micro Electro-Mechanical Sensors) which are a critical part of guidance systems in these types of missiles. Or India just procure these parts from Russia and assemble them in India?
If that is the case then why Pakistan not doing the same with Chinese assistance?
One more news I heard in past that Pakistan n China are stablishing an advanced Defence electronic R & D Centre in Pakistan.
Will it be helpful in developing these technologies as well as RADAR technology?

Please reply in detail.

@abadeel

india already has semiconductor manufacturing facilities although on a smaller scale vis-a-vis china.Its a lab under ISRO by the name SCL and they have developed 0.8micron CMOS technologies through indigenous R&D effort.here is their official site-you can look into some of their cutting edge research.
SemiConductor Laboratory (SCL)
secondly india is establishing two brand new FAbs at an estimated cost fo $10bn(one in gujrat and one near delhi)
thirdly ,although india lacks an extensive semiconductor manufacturing facilities(barring a few minor ones like SCL etc),india's research productivity in micro-processor designing is pretty decent,in fact it'd come to you as a surprise that INTEL's 6-core microprocessor was desgined here in bangalore similarly texas instrument's india based R&D lab filed close to 700 patents back in 2012!
India also has couple of the research institutes working in the field of MEMS- in fact my college too has MEMS designing facility(which was very costly when it was established).For more info kindly look into the research publications of RCI(DRDO) and IISC bangalore in the field of MEMS based sensors and actuators designed by indian labs.
RCI even designed 160x160 Focal planar array as a part of their IIR seeker development program,infact a public owned company is coming up at RCI campus in hyd exclusively for the mass manufacturing of FOCAL PLANAR ARRAY- sulfide detectors etc- LWIR and MWIR range
@Oscar

Intel shows off new India-made processor

Company Info | Texas Instruments India

Centre for Nano Science and Engineering (CENSE) - Indian Institute of Science (IISc) - The official website

 

[Judge]

Secondly how India succeded in making Long Range SAM (Akash)

Akash is a medium range SAM (MRSAM), not LRSAM.
LRSAM is under development.

 

[amardeep mishra]

@Oscar

these two are the pictures from a very recent defence research seminar at IIT bombay. Notice the extensive usage of composites that has lead to not only reduction of overall weight but also increase in throw weight capacity.According to DRDO(from seminar),a missile with 6-10 MIRV requires a throw weight capacity of at least 3 tonnes! even for a payload of 4 MIRVs(that they are planning for SLBM) they'd need a throw weight of 2 tonnes! Weight reduction to a certain degree is also achieved by using MEMS based sensors and actuators instead of old mechanical and hydraulic systems. I wonder how would pakistan (that claims to be working on MIRV) achieve throw weight capacity of 2-3 tonnes.Can you shed some light ?Similarly, in lack of obvious research in the field of MEMS in pakistan,how do you think they source their MEMS based sensors and actuators?

 

[hussain0216]

Simple money

We have limited funds so we have to concentrate those funds on our critical requirements (maybe this will begin to change as our economy is getting better)

The same goes for long range missiles whats the point of making a missile that goes 8000 miles when what we need to do is ensure that india is covered and that our missiles are good enough to bypass any defences and destroy India


So for good or bad our developers have concentrated on strategic and ballistic missiles that are better then a rocket with a bomb on the nose



We have various projects in cold development so they are funded just enough to keep them going so if we suddenly require them and become stuck we can increase funding to aquire them in a relatively short period of time




Other than that we have good options for various missiles that we ourselves can't make from China like LR Sams

 

[amardeep mishra]

Simple money

We have limited funds so we have to concentrate those funds on our critical requirements (maybe this will begin to change as our economy is getting better)

i wish things were really that simple,however in real world a lot of things lead to successful design and development of weapon systems - for instance industrial maturity of a country also matters apart from money. You cant really develop a single crystal blade out of a sudden if you had billions of dollars yet 0 experience with equiaxed or directionally solidified structures.

 

[Screambowl]

because Pakistan has no building blocks neither the infra. to start from scratch.

 

[hussain0216]

i wish things were really that simple,however in real world a lot of things lead to successful design and development of weapon systems - for instance industrial maturity of a country also matters apart from money. You cant really develop a single crystal blade out of a sudden if you had billions of dollars yet 0 experience with equiaxed or directionally solidified structures.

It is that simple

By hook or crook how many obstacles has Pakistan overcome to develop critical weaponry

 

[SQ8]

.Can you shed some light ?Similarly, in lack of obvious research in the field of MEMS in pakistan,how do you think they source their MEMS based sensors and actuators?

Notice that the weight of the warhead is what determines throw weight.. and range. and so on. So it is possible to bring in MIRVS but at the expense of range and off course.. flight profile.. and so on. However, the Scenario between India and Pakistan is such.. the research in MEMs is outsourced to China.. so all of the MEMs sensors,actuators and so on come from sources and then are simply reversed at home. Again, China is NOT the only source.. Pakistan's defence industry thrives on dual use technology which is available via various vendors.

So far, the focus has been less on MIRVs here and more on making existing delivery systems more survivable against a ABM system and highly accurate.

 

[amardeep mishra]

So it is possible to bring in MIRVS but at the expense of range and off course.. flight profile.. and so on.

Since the nature of warhead design and weight is such a state secret and not much information is publicly available in form of research paper(unlike various other DRDO projects),i would refrain from commenting on this,however what the DRDO research engineer said at IIT bombay seminar does raise some issues regarding pakistani capability to field a MIRV system.Because for a standard ICBM type warhead(here again standard could mean differently for different countries),you'd still need a throw weight of 2-3 tonnes for 4-10 MIRVs. Now throw weight is something that the usage of MEMS alone cant increase- you'd have to invariably make use of composites in rocket motors,shrouds and other structural assembly like the trident D5 and french M55 SLBMs(they're full composite)!.
Another important question or rather an issue was that pertaining to pakistan's capability to manufacture critical maraging steel,titanium alloys etc.(all the earlier ICBMs used maraging steel casings,motor etc).Which establishment or research institute do you think does research in metallurgy and what is itz research productivity both in terms of quality(citation factor,impact factors etc) and quantity(number of patents and research papers produced)(Or in other words what is the pakistani equivalent of DMRL?)
on a lighter note-I remember talking to you two years back,and i was out working on my own bi-static radar and signal processing ,its good to be back!

@Oscar
btw, it is really frustrating to see no research papers coming from pakistani side in the fields mentioned above,i mean doesnt NESCOM,DESTO etc produce research papers?patents?

 

[SQ8]

S
@Oscar
btw, it is really frustrating to see no research papers coming from pakistani side in the fields mentioned above,i mean doesnt NESCOM,DESTO etc produce research papers?patents?

Not too much, at least not with such fervour.
A big issue has to do with the utter paranoia surrounding the system.. take this gentleman for instance.. you'd never think what he might have done that would have normally warranted a paper on the process.

http://www.case.edu.pk/Faculty/CV/Dr.NadeemEhsan.pdf

2000-todate: Extremely complex and demanding National Technological Project requiring State-ofthe-Art
technology, Air Weapons Complex and NESCOM

You can only wonder what exactly that was about. It will NEVER be declared, any research on it cannot go onto a paper because all data is "air gapped(no internet, wifi..no connection to the outside world)"

Here are the rest of the people, do you seriously think that these folks are unable to bring out papers?
.:: CASE: Center For Advanced Studies In Engineering ::.

In some cases they do, in other cases they just have to keep quiet.